Leinster v La Rochelle Heineken Cup Final Sat 28th May 4.45 Marseille

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curates_egg
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Re: Leinster v La Rochelle Heineken Cup Final Sat 28th May 4.45 Marseille

Post by curates_egg »

FLIP wrote: May 30th, 2022, 9:34 am
the spoofer wrote: May 30th, 2022, 9:30 am I really hope both Leinster and Munster get to the URC final.
I don't want the ghouls to even have a sniff of the trophy after the shite they and their media have been putting out. I'd love to see Ulster win this weekend and for the only success they've had in over a decade being someone else's victory.
Plus 100.
If we don't win it, I really want Ulster to. They totally deserve to, based not only on results but also how they are playing.
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Re: Leinster v La Rochelle Heineken Cup Final Sat 28th May 4.45 Marseille

Post by SoupyNorman »

I do feel in the pre-match analysis, that sometimes hardfought tight gritty victories are undervalued compared to big impressive blowout wins. As suggested elsewhere, the main issue for Leinster is how they have been able to on cruise control in the European Cup.

The semi-finals weekend did remind me of the bloodgate day. Where Munster absolutely blew Ospreys out of the water further solidifying their place as near unstoppaable favorites. Leinster as we all know sneaked a low scoring single point victory away. I just felt confident the manner of Leinster's win that day would stand to them in the semi.

Felt same after seeing how La Rochelle didn't necessarily impress attacking wise, but how they were able to spoil and negate Metro's attack and gameplan.
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Re: Leinster v La Rochelle Heineken Cup Final Sat 28th May 4.45 Marseille

Post by Logorrhea »

desperado wrote: May 29th, 2022, 9:03 pm
paddyor wrote: May 28th, 2022, 7:26 pm Don’t buy the power argument at all. That was mental imo.
+1*2
#

Ahhh I disagree. I've always thought defense was more of a mental thing. You are either tuned in or not and we very much were.
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Re: Leinster v La Rochelle Heineken Cup Final Sat 28th May 4.45 Marseille

Post by Dave Cahill »

The reaction of Munster supporters is simultaneously natural, strange, surprising and predictable.

ROG and Donncha Ryan are former Munster players who between them played nearly 500 game for the province, its natural to be proud of their achievements - it particularly plays into a classic Irish failing of valuing success elsewhere over success at home, we see that all the time in Sports, Music, Business, any field really. So going to France and taking on a relatively small French club and bringing them to a European title is something that people from Munster are (and should be) proud of. And if it stops your local rivals winning, so much the better. Despite their, at best, indifference to his departure, there are lots of Everton fans very happy with Carlo Ancelotti this morning for example.

Where it becomes problematical for them is the cognitive dissonance. Despite seeing themselves (not entirely inaccurately) as one of European Rugby's big dogs, some Munster supporters have come to the conclusion that their only chance of any success is entirely vicarious, something that appears to be unique to Munster. I don't recall such joy coming down the M1 when Mark McCall was winning all around him at Saracens. Ulster supporters still have hope though - their Munster equivalents appear to have given up on the chance of their own team being successful. You'd nearly feel sorry for them. Nearly.
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Re: Leinster v La Rochelle Heineken Cup Final Sat 28th May 4.45 Marseille

Post by dougie the flanker »

Dave Cahill wrote: May 30th, 2022, 10:21 am The reaction of Munster supporters is simultaneously natural, strange, surprising and predictable.

ROG and Donncha Ryan are former Munster players who between them played nearly 500 game for the province, its natural to be proud of their achievements - it particularly plays into a classic Irish failing of valuing success elsewhere over success at home, we see that all the time in Sports, Music, Business, any field really. So going to France and taking on a relatively small French club and bringing them to a European title is something that people from Munster are (and should be) proud of. And if it stops your local rivals winning, so much the better. Despite their, at best, indifference to his departure, there are lots of Everton fans very happy with Carlo Ancelotti this morning for example.

Where it becomes problematical for them is the cognitive dissonance. Despite seeing themselves (not entirely inaccurately) as one of European Rugby's big dogs, some Munster supporters have come to the conclusion that their only chance of any success is entirely vicarious, something that appears to be unique to Munster. I don't recall such joy coming down the M1 when Mark McCall was winning all around him at Saracens. Ulster supporters still have hope though - their Munster equivalents appear to have given up on the chance of their own team being successful. You'd nearly feel sorry for them. Nearly.
Munster fan here. Firstly hard luck - I genuinely had ye pegged as 15-20 point favourites and I reckon this Leinster team could make the next 2-3 finals easily. I wouldn't read anything into this business of Skelton/Physicality being the flaw, maybe just a bit of mentality stuff being away from home and in a big pressure match.

On your point though, I think you're maybe being slightly unfair. I'd seen tonnes of Ulster supporters doing the vicarious success piece through Steenson and Whitten and McCall for Exeter and Saracens. Similar to Trevor Brennan with Toulouse back in the early 2000s.

On one hand I see Munster cop a lot of stick for having delusions of grandeur. Not won in Europe for so long but still we see ourselves as a big team in with a chance of winning it, we always assume this year will be our year etc. And then equally comments like you're suggesting where we only live vicariously and enjoy success of former players and coaches as we know we won't get any ourselves.

I do agree there's a sizeable amount of Munster fans that seem to delight in any downfall for Leinster but the shoe is certainly on the other foot much of the time. Every province has its idiots that bring that sort of soccer nonsense to supporting the game. I think most of us (whether blue or red) don't get involved in that kind of mud slinging.

Leaving that aside, I thought Jimmy O'Brien had a good game. After watching Larmour's big game against us last week I thought he was unlucky to miss out especially with the credit he'd built up in the bank. But O'Brien looks a really decent player too. With the emergence of himself and Hansen this year I think thats the last we'll see of Keith Earls for Ireland unfortunately.
Last edited by dougie the flanker on May 30th, 2022, 10:46 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Leinster v La Rochelle Heineken Cup Final Sat 28th May 4.45 Marseille

Post by blockhead »

Heartbreaking is the word.
We go again next year I suppose, what else can we do. I thought for the last 3 seasons it was our year but its a hard trophy to win.
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Re: Leinster v La Rochelle Heineken Cup Final Sat 28th May 4.45 Marseille

Post by LeRouxIsPHat »

Taking the points were all correct calls for me. I’d have been fuming if we turned down the chance to go more than 7 ahead if we hadn’t scored. We also just weren’t playing well so not sure why people would have backed us to actually score a try off a lineout.

I think Ryan disagreed with Sexton at one point though? I forgot to look out for it on the rewatch but Barnes said something like “he’s the captain and the decision has already been made”. I think it was it was those two who were involved but might have it wrong.
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Re: Leinster v La Rochelle Heineken Cup Final Sat 28th May 4.45 Marseille

Post by dougie the flanker »

LeRouxIsPHat wrote: May 30th, 2022, 10:48 am Taking the points were all correct calls for me. I’d have been fuming if we turned down the chance to go more than 7 ahead if we hadn’t scored. We also just weren’t playing well so not sure why people would have backed us to actually score a try off a lineout.

I think Ryan disagreed with Sexton at one point though? I forgot to look out for it on the rewatch but Barnes said something like “he’s the captain and the decision has already been made”. I think it was it was those two who were involved but might have it wrong.
You won the 2018 Heineken Cup Final without scoring any tries and last year Toulouse scored 5 penalties to keep the scoreboard ticking in their final with just 1 try.

I think the decision making was fine. I feel there's a tiny narrative starting to build about James Ryan's decision making after Paris in the Six Nations and then on Saturday (even though Sexton was captain). Seen a few comments/questions about it. They made the right calls.
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Re: Leinster v La Rochelle Heineken Cup Final Sat 28th May 4.45 Marseille

Post by curates_egg »

LeRouxIsPHat wrote: May 30th, 2022, 10:48 am Taking the points were all correct calls for me. I’d have been fuming if we turned down the chance to go more than 7 ahead if we hadn’t scored. We also just weren’t playing well so not sure why people would have backed us to actually score a try off a lineout.

I think Ryan disagreed with Sexton at one point though? I forgot to look out for it on the rewatch but Barnes said something like “he’s the captain and the decision has already been made”. I think it was it was those two who were involved but might have it wrong.
That was for one in front of the posts, where I think it was the right call to kick it.

For me, the only one I would question is the one Byrne kicked after they had just had a second row sent to the bin. Surely, if ever there was a moment to try to go for a try and back our maul (which was doing well), that was it.

I think we ended up losing the period where we were a man up 3-7.
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Re: Leinster v La Rochelle Heineken Cup Final Sat 28th May 4.45 Marseille

Post by curates_egg »

I'm enjoying the scenes from La Rochelle: it's a small town in winter, with not a lot going on, and this win clearly means a lot to them.
A lot better than losing to Saracens, for example.

That said, there is a lot of utter tosh being spun about the club. It was irking me, so I went through it.
15 of the 23 on Saturday have been recruited to the club in the past five years, and the entire coaching team has been recruited since ROG joined in 2019.
They don't seem to have any clear sugardaddy and, other than Skelton and Danty, they haven't really signed any superstars since Vito (who is one of the longest-serving players at the club, joining six years ago)...but their success has undeniably been built on shrewd recruitment.
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Re: Leinster v La Rochelle Heineken Cup Final Sat 28th May 4.45 Marseille

Post by SoupyNorman »

dougie the flanker wrote: May 30th, 2022, 10:39 am I do agree there's a sizeable amount of Munster fans that seem to delight in any downfall for Leinster but the shoe is certainly on the other foot much of the time. Every province has its idiots that bring that sort of soccer nonsense to supporting the game. I think most of us (whether blue or red) don't get involved in that kind of mud slinging.
Think that not wanting your local rivals to be successful is very much in the DNA of Irish rugby from time in memorian. Skerries lads never want Clontarf to win, if you not a member in Temple Hill in Cork you are an ABC (Anyone But 'Con). Was at a Waterpark game when they looked like being relegated from the AIL and most of the ' local' fans were from Waterford City RFC, relishing seeing their rivals demise. And I don't think Garryowen, Shannon and Young Munster genuinely wish each other well.
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Re: Leinster v La Rochelle Heineken Cup Final Sat 28th May 4.45 Marseille

Post by SoupyNorman »

SoupyNorman wrote: May 30th, 2022, 11:48 am
dougie the flanker wrote: May 30th, 2022, 10:39 am I do agree there's a sizeable amount of Munster fans that seem to delight in any downfall for Leinster but the shoe is certainly on the other foot much of the time. Every province has its idiots that bring that sort of soccer nonsense to supporting the game. I think most of us (whether blue or red) don't get involved in that kind of mud slinging.
Think that not wanting your local rivals to be successful is very much in the DNA of Irish rugby from time in memorian. Skerries lads never want Clontarf to win, if you not a member in Temple Hill in Cork you are an ABC (Anyone But 'Con). Was at a Waterpark game when they looked like being relegated from the AIL and most of the ' local' fans were from Waterford City RFC, relishing seeing their rivals demise. And I don't think Garryowen, Shannon and Young Munster genuinely wish each other well.
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Re: Leinster v La Rochelle Heineken Cup Final Sat 28th May 4.45 Marseille

Post by El Diablo »

curates_egg wrote: May 30th, 2022, 11:26 am
LeRouxIsPHat wrote: May 30th, 2022, 10:48 am Taking the points were all correct calls for me. I’d have been fuming if we turned down the chance to go more than 7 ahead if we hadn’t scored. We also just weren’t playing well so not sure why people would have backed us to actually score a try off a lineout.

I think Ryan disagreed with Sexton at one point though? I forgot to look out for it on the rewatch but Barnes said something like “he’s the captain and the decision has already been made”. I think it was it was those two who were involved but might have it wrong.
That was for one in front of the posts, where I think it was the right call to kick it.

For me, the only one I would question is the one Byrne kicked after they had just had a second row sent to the bin. Surely, if ever there was a moment to try to go for a try and back our maul (which was doing well), that was it.
agreed. That was the one they should have gone to the corner.
Has anyone re-watched Ala’alatoa jackel on 71 mins? Barnes pinged Moloney for not rolling. He lands near the ball and moves straight away. Huge call.
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Re: Leinster v La Rochelle Heineken Cup Final Sat 28th May 4.45 Marseille

Post by SoupyNorman »

dougie the flanker wrote: May 30th, 2022, 10:39 am I do agree there's a sizeable amount of Munster fans that seem to delight in any downfall for Leinster but the shoe is certainly on the other foot much of the time. Every province has its idiots that bring that sort of soccer nonsense to supporting the game. I think most of us (whether blue or red) don't get involved in that kind of mud slinging.
Think that not wanting your local rivals to be successful is very much in the DNA of Irish rugby from time in memorian. Skerries lads never want Clontarf to win, if you not a member in Temple Hill in Cork you are an ABC (Anyone But 'Con). Was at a Waterpark game when they looked like being relegated from the AIL and most of the local fans were from Waterford City RFC, relishing seeing their rivals demise. And I don't think Garryowen, Shannon and Young Munster genuinely wish each other well.

Also, my main memory or Bernard Jackman's autobiography from when he finished playing qas about how he was always checking out Munster scores in the hope they lost.

Of course the other commonality with a lot of the above is that it is the relatively bigger fish who are the ones will be cheered against
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Re: Leinster v La Rochelle Heineken Cup Final Sat 28th May 4.45 Marseille

Post by fourthirtythree »

I can't remember where I read it but O'Gara said before the match that his team wouldn't lose, they might not win but they wouldn't lose and that they were different things. Unfortunately we lost. We bottled. We choked.

By far the better team on the day won but they didn't make us fail to take the right options and execute in attack. We were poor.

Still the season to be rescued.
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Re: Leinster v La Rochelle Heineken Cup Final Sat 28th May 4.45 Marseille

Post by the spoofer »

El Diablo wrote: May 30th, 2022, 11:53 am
curates_egg wrote: May 30th, 2022, 11:26 am
LeRouxIsPHat wrote: May 30th, 2022, 10:48 am Taking the points were all correct calls for me. I’d have been fuming if we turned down the chance to go more than 7 ahead if we hadn’t scored. We also just weren’t playing well so not sure why people would have backed us to actually score a try off a lineout.

I think Ryan disagreed with Sexton at one point though? I forgot to look out for it on the rewatch but Barnes said something like “he’s the captain and the decision has already been made”. I think it was it was those two who were involved but might have it wrong.
That was for one in front of the posts, where I think it was the right call to kick it.

For me, the only one I would question is the one Byrne kicked after they had just had a second row sent to the bin. Surely, if ever there was a moment to try to go for a try and back our maul (which was doing well), that was it.
agreed. That was the one they should have gone to the corner.
Has anyone re-watched Ala’alatoa jackel on 71 mins? Barnes pinged Moloney for not rolling. He lands near the ball and moves straight away. Huge call.
Yeah it was a bad call but then the neck roll call was very dubious. There was a much more obvious neck roll in the final few minutes but understand why they don't get pinged.

Just out of interest, did anyone else think the final pass to Rhule for his try was forward?
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Re: Leinster v La Rochelle Heineken Cup Final Sat 28th May 4.45 Marseille

Post by bronxbull »

5am I got home to bed.
Great weekend,great craic,great stadium.

Shite trip back delayed 3 hrs and then left on plane for an hour until they could get someone to put steps on the plane.

Match was disappointing but no complaints.Had chance and didn't take it.
We didn't play well because La Rochelle didn't give us the opportunity to.
They kicked the ball out every chance they could and hit us with everything when we did have the ball.
Leinster have had a minimal presence at the breakdown all year and one poach during that monumental defensive stand would have sealed the game.
2 bad bounces done us for Sexton and O'Brien on that vital try.
We really should have tried to go two scores up with our maul going well and their main line out threat gone.
Hindsight is great, at the time I was happy Ross kicked it.
60 seconds away from glory in a very difficult place to play.
We led until the last minute.
We just didn't see out the game more so than we were bullied out of it.
We needed to score tries and Furlong is the only try scorer now in 3 finals.
They made a huge effort to prevent a try at all costs.A card could have come for persistent fouling in the 22 as most of our kicks were basically straight in front,bar the last one.
We definitely aren't playing any sort of free flowing game in the last 3 finals and the pressure seems to change our game plan.
These are bloody hard things to win and this team has been brilliant all year.
We go back home to the RDS next week and go again for the League.
Tough loss though.

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Re: Leinster v La Rochelle Heineken Cup Final Sat 28th May 4.45 Marseille

Post by dougie the flanker »

fourthirtythree wrote: May 30th, 2022, 12:09 pm I can't remember where I read it but O'Gara said before the match that his team wouldn't lose, they might not win but they wouldn't lose and that they were different things. Unfortunately we lost. We bottled. We choked.
I think the whole Drive for Five thing coupled with the ease of the wins against Tigers and Toulouse meant all the pressure was sitting on blue shoulders.

Rewind back a week to Aviva Stadium where the Leinster backup players confidently went about their business against a Munster team who were expected to win well with a home semi final on the line.

One team with something to win. Another team with something to lose.

Against La Rochelle, Leinster had it all to lose. Its a really difficult thing to overcome.

We (Ireland) will be in that position at every RWC until the monkey is off our backs so hopefully we get used to these big occasions where its all on the line.
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Re: Leinster v La Rochelle Heineken Cup Final Sat 28th May 4.45 Marseille

Post by ronk »

Dave Cahill wrote: May 30th, 2022, 10:21 am The reaction of Munster supporters is simultaneously natural, strange, surprising and predictable.

ROG and Donncha Ryan are former Munster players who between them played nearly 500 game for the province, its natural to be proud of their achievements - it particularly plays into a classic Irish failing of valuing success elsewhere over success at home, we see that all the time in Sports, Music, Business, any field really. So going to France and taking on a relatively small French club and bringing them to a European title is something that people from Munster are (and should be) proud of. And if it stops your local rivals winning, so much the better. Despite their, at best, indifference to his departure, there are lots of Everton fans very happy with Carlo Ancelotti this morning for example.

Where it becomes problematical for them is the cognitive dissonance. Despite seeing themselves (not entirely inaccurately) as one of European Rugby's big dogs, some Munster supporters have come to the conclusion that their only chance of any success is entirely vicarious, something that appears to be unique to Munster. I don't recall such joy coming down the M1 when Mark McCall was winning all around him at Saracens. Ulster supporters still have hope though - their Munster equivalents appear to have given up on the chance of their own team being successful. You'd nearly feel sorry for them. Nearly.
ROG isn't exactly publicity shy, rather the opposite. He's a tive in print and in front of a camera. I thought it was telling in the final that he was shown so so much by the TV cameras. It was like we were supposed to be watching him watch the game. Leo was barely shown, and that was probably at his request. I like that about him. He'd be disgusted if someone called us Leoster or some such nonsense.

He's also quick to talk down URC and floridly rejected Munster's vacant coaching position to ingratiate himself with La Rochelle fans.

Fans support whoever they choose to support. But it would have felt strange for me supporting an English or French club against an Irish province. If someone's first thought was to celebrate ROGs achievement then they are choosing brand ROG ahead of an Irish province. Munster and Ulster winning the Heineken Cup were good for Leinster too and I was there to cheer them on (obviously Ulster's 2nd final wouldn't have been good for Leinster).

Anyway, congrats to ROG. He's a very good coach who's done well. I think he's too political for the Irish job. We'll try again next year.
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Re: Leinster v La Rochelle Heineken Cup Final Sat 28th May 4.45 Marseille

Post by Oldschoolsocks »

dougie the flanker wrote: May 30th, 2022, 10:39 am
Dave Cahill wrote: May 30th, 2022, 10:21 am The reaction of Munster supporters is simultaneously natural, strange, surprising and predictable.

ROG and Donncha Ryan are former Munster players who between them played nearly 500 game for the province, its natural to be proud of their achievements - it particularly plays into a classic Irish failing of valuing success elsewhere over success at home, we see that all the time in Sports, Music, Business, any field really. So going to France and taking on a relatively small French club and bringing them to a European title is something that people from Munster are (and should be) proud of. And if it stops your local rivals winning, so much the better. Despite their, at best, indifference to his departure, there are lots of Everton fans very happy with Carlo Ancelotti this morning for example.

Where it becomes problematical for them is the cognitive dissonance. Despite seeing themselves (not entirely inaccurately) as one of European Rugby's big dogs, some Munster supporters have come to the conclusion that their only chance of any success is entirely vicarious, something that appears to be unique to Munster. I don't recall such joy coming down the M1 when Mark McCall was winning all around him at Saracens. Ulster supporters still have hope though - their Munster equivalents appear to have given up on the chance of their own team being successful. You'd nearly feel sorry for them. Nearly.
Munster fan here. Firstly hard luck - I genuinely had ye pegged as 15-20 point favourites and I reckon this Leinster team could make the next 2-3 finals easily. I wouldn't read anything into this business of Skelton/Physicality being the flaw, maybe just a bit of mentality stuff being away from home and in a big pressure match.

On your point though, I think you're maybe being slightly unfair. I'd seen tonnes of Ulster supporters doing the vicarious success piece through Steenson and Whitten and McCall for Exeter and Saracens. Similar to Trevor Brennan with Toulouse back in the early 2000s.

On one hand I see Munster cop a lot of stick for having delusions of grandeur. Not won in Europe for so long but still we see ourselves as a big team in with a chance of winning it, we always assume this year will be our year etc. And then equally comments like you're suggesting where we only live vicariously and enjoy success of former players and coaches as we know we won't get any ourselves.

I do agree there's a sizeable amount of Munster fans that seem to delight in any downfall for Leinster but the shoe is certainly on the other foot much of the time. Every province has its idiots that bring that sort of soccer nonsense to supporting the game. I think most of us (whether blue or red) don't get involved in that kind of mud slinging.

Leaving that aside, I thought Jimmy O'Brien had a good game. After watching Larmour's big game against us last week I thought he was unlucky to miss out especially with the credit he'd built up in the bank. But O'Brien looks a really decent player too. With the emergence of himself and Hansen this year I think thats the last we'll see of Keith Earls for Ireland unfortunately.
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