6 Nations 2023 - The Other Teams

[Dave Cahill]

Steward didn't look at all interested in chasing down those last two tries.

Shocking. I thought he was really poor. They could try Smith at FB, but his tackle for one of France's early tries would inspire confidence for him at 15.

He could barely walk by the end - the guy was out on his feet. Which, when you consider how much had been made of England taking France to a bad place fitness wise, was a bit funny

[enby]

Seems that Healy, Ben that is, will be picked for Scots this weekend as Russell is injured. No doubt there will be all sorts of hand wringing down south

[jezzer]

England are in a weirdly interesting place.

Borthwick needs to send out all the players he wonders about psychologically and just weed out the guys who don't stand up against Ireland.

I wouldn't be giving up on the result if I was him but it wouldn't be my focus.

England started with a back-to-our-national-identity regressive, territory-based gameplay under Eddie. When he saw it wouldn't be able to keep up with the attacking nations under the new rules, he tried to reshape them midcycle to a possession and attack based team. The media and RFU weren't prepared to wait for it.

Borthwick comes in. Partly down to his playing/coaching DNA and also to wipe the stink of Eddie off his team, he reverts to the territory game. But, as a sop to the whingers, he keeps a few of the attack-oriented players. It doesn't work, unsurprisingly. He's finding out with 6 months to the RWC what Eddie found out nearly 2 years ago.

So, with no time to waste, he needs to reshape the team, stylistically and in selection.

He can't do anything interesting stylistically during this last week of the 6N, so the best thing he can do is get a jump on seeing who is up for the challenge and who isn't. Against France, there were more candidates for the latter camp than the former.

I'd be ignoring the outcome on Sat evening and just putting names in columns.

[Ruckedtobits]

England are in a weirdly interesting place.

Borthwick needs to send out all the players he wonders about psychologically and just weed out the guys who don't stand up against Ireland.

I wouldn't be giving up on the result if I was him but it wouldn't be my focus.

England started with a back-to-our-national-identity regressive, territory-based gameplay under Eddie. When he saw it wouldn't be able to keep up with the attacking nations under the new rules, he tried to reshape them midcycle to a possession and attack based team. The media and RFU weren't prepared to wait for it.

Borthwick comes in. Partly down to his playing/coaching DNA and also to wipe the stink of Eddie off his team, he reverts to the territory game. But, as a sop to the whingers, he keeps a few of the attack-oriented players. It doesn't work, unsurprisingly. He's finding out with 6 months to the RWC what Eddie found out nearly 2 years ago.

So, with no time to waste, he needs to reshape the team, stylistically and in selection.

He can't do anything interesting stylistically during this last week of the 6N, so the best thing he can do is get a jump on seeing who is up for the challenge and who isn't. Against France, there were more candidates for the latter camp than the former.

I'd be ignoring the outcome on Sat evening and just putting names in columns.

I think that's a very astute summation of Borthwick's position and options. I certainly can't see how any "new" Coach can reconfigure a Squad in a maximum of three training sessions. At best he might hope to get all his forwards doing the same thing at the same time and all his backs either carrying or passing in each phase.

IMO, he doesn't have enough players, even playing at their best, to change the style or stategy of the team. But I do expect Itoje, George, Genge, Ludlum & Curry to come out "swinging'. When all else fails, at least him them hard. They will definitely target Sexton and JGP (if selected) and launch Tuilagi (if selected) at our 10/12 channel. Their back three are not an attacking unit but they have a couple of willing chasers amongst them who can compete in the air, but he'll be wary of giving us too many counter-attacking opportunities.

If he can slow down our ball from breakdown, he'll have a lot more options.

[jezzer]

He has one further trick, which is to pick Ford and 10, Faz at 12 and Tuilagi at 13 and just let them run it themselves. Back to the old dusty playback of yore.

Nick Evans mightnt be too keen, but I doubt Steve cares too much about that right now. Get Ford to play territory and the old dogs for the hard road can try and squeeze us in the rain and floodlights.

[jezzer]

If he can slow down our ball from breakdown, he'll have a lot more options.

Judging by how their pack played on Sat, I'd be sceptical of that working, unless they make a lot of.changes.

[riocard911]

He has one further trick, which is to pick Ford and 10, Faz at 12 and Tuilagi at 13 and just let them run it themselves. Back to the old dusty playback of yore.

Nick Evans mightnt be too keen, but I doubt Steve cares too much about that right now. Get Ford to play territory and the old dogs for the hard road can try and squeeze us in the rain and floodlights.

I know his career has been plagued by injuries, but at the same time I can't think of a player more overhyped than Manu Tuilagi. It's like all England have to do is get him on the pitch with the ball in hand and he'll steamroll everything in sight, thereby leading them to victory. All hail bish, bash, bosh. Whatever... I was never convinced and I'm still not.

[Aird]

Took my grandson some years ago to Ravenhill to watch the Irish Wolfhounds v English Saxons. My one real outstanding memory was seeing the much hyped Manu Tuilagia being left floundering as the late Nial Spence ( at the time a virtually unknown Ulster Centre ) cut trough his defence like a knife through butter.
Ever since I have found it hard to believe the hype around Manu. The last time he was at Ravenhill with Sale we had to check the programme to confirm he was on the team he was so invisible.

[jezzer]

He has one further trick, which is to pick Ford and 10, Faz at 12 and Tuilagi at 13 and just let them run it themselves. Back to the old dusty playback of yore.

Nick Evans mightnt be too keen, but I doubt Steve cares too much about that right now. Get Ford to play territory and the old dogs for the hard road can try and squeeze us in the rain and floodlights.

I know his career has been plagued by injuries, but at the same time I can't think of a player more overhyped than Manu Tuilagi. It's like all England have to do is get him on the pitch with the ball in hand and he'll steamroll everything in sight, thereby leading them to victory. All hail bish, bash, bosh. Whatever... I was never convinced and I'm still not.

Very true. Where I was going was the familiarity and playbook. That's if they want to try to pinch a win.

If I was Borthwick, I'd be doing an audit of cojones instead.

[TrapperChamonix]

One observation about Borthwick. Every interview I've seen him in, hes said England are cr@p. cr@p at everything. We might be a little less cr@p next game, but right here right now we're cr@p. It obviously protects his own reputation from poor results, but it must rub off on his teams confidence.
England look in the sam place Ireland did when Gatty took over just before our trip to Paris in 98 just after Ashton quit.

[Ruckedtobits]

And this is exactly what I expect from Genge. Last Sat, the French coaches read the script perfectly and their THP really worked on keeping Genge legit in the scrums I.e. he wasn't allowed 'bore-in' as he usually does. When he doesn't have the little battles to celebrate, Genge often switches off the contest.

For most people 'fighting' in a rugby match actually means contesting as hard as you can. For Genge it usually means fighting.

If Furlong can work him over and keep him scrummaging straight, Genge will have a quiet day. Otherwise, he'll be a menace and trying to start a row and motivating his fellow forwards.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/64965141

[Ruckedtobits]

Jaco Peiper is our Ref on Saturday. The last Irish game he did was the 2nd Test v NZ where they had one Red and two Yellow cards for NZ and one Yellow for Ireland

In the past six months, he reffed a number of Irish teams in the URC, usually with lots of whistle. His 'advantages' are very short and he often disagrees with his TMO. Marius Jonker is the TMO on Saturday and doesn't like to be over-ruled. This might be interesting.

The player I believe we'll miss most is Tadgh Beirne who would relish this occasion.

[paddyor]

Jaco Peiper is our Ref on Saturday. The last Irish game he did was the 2nd Test v NZ where they had one Red and two Yellow cards for NZ and one Yellow for Ireland

In the past six months, he reffed a number of Irish teams in the URC, usually with lots of whistle. His 'advantages' are very short and he often disagrees with his TMO. Marius Jonker is the TMO on Saturday and doesn't like to be over-ruled. This might be interesting.

The player I believe we'll miss most is Tadgh Beirne who would relish this occasion.

Jonker is a plonker. He was TMO in one of the Saffer games last season nad he had at least 1 howler of an intervention

[wixfjord]

Murray K's predicted team:

15. Hugo Keenan
14. Mack Hansen
13. Robbie Henshaw
12. Bundee Aki
11. James Lowe
10. Johnny Sexton (captain)
9. Jamison Gibson-Park

1. Andrew Porter
2. Dan Sheehan
3. Tadhg Furlong
4. Ryan Baird
5. James Ryan
6. Peter O’Mahony
7. Josh van der Flier
8. Caelan Doris

Doris & Sheehan seemingly trained today.

[LeinsterLeader]

Murray K's predicted team:

15. Hugo Keenan
14. Mack Hansen
13. Robbie Henshaw
12. Bundee Aki
11. James Lowe
10. Johnny Sexton (captain)
9. Jamison Gibson-Park

1. Andrew Porter
2. Dan Sheehan
3. Tadhg Furlong
4. Ryan Baird
5. James Ryan
6. Peter O’Mahony
7. Josh van der Flier
8. Caelan Doris

Doris & Sheehan seemingly trained today.

That would be great if we could get that side out. We are lucky though that if we go 2 hookers down we can still call on an experienced operator like Herring too!

[paddyor]

Listening to the Molecast, I think they’re wrong about the decision of the RFU to fire Jones. I think it had to be done mostly to keep the players in line. Which is in keeping with why he was let go by Japan(players threatened to quit if he stayed on) and Queensland to AIUI. Main criticism for me is he should never have been kept on as long as he was. The context was they started losing players to France(simmonds, marchant, Willis-signed for another yr with Toulouse) and they’d massive budget cuts at the clubs(biggar to Toulon mid season, Faf & de Jäger from sale, Exeter exodus). Then 2 clubs go bang within weeks of each other with rumours of 3rd swirling. 80 players is a lot of downward pressure on wages. There salary cap is .5m more than the Welsh one(marquee signing is irrelevant to them) If the prize for hanging around is getting treated like sh!t by Eddie Jones or who knows even having your career ended in a judo training exercise would you be that sure you’d take it? And he completely degraded the value of caps outside the RWC. The stories of steak & sausages or the after match texts are jarring funny but behind it is massive staff turnover.

I’m not here to defend Sweeney and his obscene pay rise(not remotely connected to having Ben Ryan do a hatchet job on the youth coaching structures dontxha know), he really should have done it sooner IMO. Another criticism is having gone to the trouble of replacing Jones he hampered his successor with the terms of the EPS agreement which only allowed him to change 5 non injured players. Madness.

[ronk]

England and Wales have both had so much off field trouble that's its hard to tell whether their outgoing coaches were holding back decline, or papering over some deep rot. At this stage history will record it on the way a few games go at the RWC.

[blockhead]

Ben Healy on the bench for the Jocks

[riocard911]

Ben Healy on the bench for the Jocks

It's not vs Ireland so best of luck to him!

[jezzer]

Listening to the Molecast, I think they’re wrong about the decision of the RFU to fire Jones. I think it had to be done mostly to keep the players in line. Which is in keeping with why he was let go by Japan(players threatened to quit if he stayed on) and Queensland to AIUI. Main criticism for me is he should never have been kept on as long as he was. The context was they started losing players to France(simmonds, marchant, Willis-signed for another yr with Toulouse) and they’d massive budget cuts at the clubs(biggar to Toulon mid season, Faf & de Jäger from sale, Exeter exodus). Then 2 clubs go bang within weeks of each other with rumours of 3rd swirling. 80 players is a lot of downward pressure on wages. There salary cap is .5m more than the Welsh one(marquee signing is irrelevant to them) If the prize for hanging around is getting treated like sh!t by Eddie Jones or who knows even having your career ended in a judo training exercise would you be that sure you’d take it? And he completely degraded the value of caps outside the RWC. The stories of steak & sausages or the after match texts are jarring funny but behind it is massive staff turnover.

I’m not here to defend Sweeney and his obscene pay rise(not remotely connected to having Ben Ryan do a hatchet job on the youth coaching structures dontxha know), he really should have done it sooner IMO. Another criticism is having gone to the trouble of replacing Jones he hampered his successor with the terms of the EPS agreement which only allowed him to change 5 non injured players. Madness.

Could France tonking England be the spark that turns rugby union structures around in England the way England tonking France did 4 or 5 years ago?

England aren't hosting a rwc tho. Still, they must recognise the issues aren't all coach-led.