Autumn Internationals 2022 Not Ireland

[ronk]

Jones was always a bit up and down, so it was easy enough to explain away and expect him to come good.

Just like Gatland.

In Ireland we have experience at seeing everything fall apart with burnt out coaches coming up to a RWC, so it seems a logical move to can him.

[Ruckedtobits]

The absence of Shaun Edwards is the single biggest weakness in Gatlands re-appointment. It will be interesting to see what progresses.

[FLIP]

Welsh rugby is like a whodunit film. Every day fans blame a different area of the welsh game. It might be Pivac, the WRU, the regions, the amateur clubs, the attack coach etc. At least they've quietened down on blaming the Irish.


This might be a case of them not seeing the wood for the trees. Looking in from the outside I'd say there is just a lack of interest in rugby overall. They have a lot of rugby clubs but numbers are dwindling. They have 2 successful soccer clubs to deal with too which shouldn't be underestimated.

The thing is that the Welsh fans are almost right in blaming every aspect of Welsh rugby.. except themselves. Welsh rugby has failings at every level, and one big one is the fans who talk down the league at every opportunity. How do they expect to grow and maintain a fan base with that sort of mindset? How do they expect their teams to perform when they won't go and watch them? Less fans = less revenue for regions = lower performance.

Apparently one of the items that had to be agreed by the WRU was "a stipulation of his return being a full root-and-branch review of professional Welsh rugby."

[Ruckedtobits]

Immediately following the announcement of Gatland's appointment, but at a different Press briefing, the WRU announced that they had reached agreement on a funding package for the Regions and would give further details after they met the Pro Players Comm today (Tuesday).

WRU structures are arcane and every Committee is marked by another Committee. It will be interesting what they try to slip out (announce) under the cover of the media coverage of Jones' future.

[fourthirtythree]

I'd say they don't want to but public pressure has grown too much. Its Jones' own fault for putting all his eggs in the world cup basket.

By far the most important thing about management, not leadership, is that it is effective. Leadership can be based on principles and example, management has to be pragmatic and flexible.
He has run through assistant coaches at a ridiculous rate – I don't know if they have signed NDAs or if they realise themselves that there is no upside to getting into a post-role p*ssing match. I've heard [off the record and indirectly, but through somebody who was in a position to know] that he was an absolute f*cker to work under.

I think that the sacking of Jones, whose insights I love hearing with the caveat that he's often spinning, shows that the RFU realise that it's not all about the World Cup. If it was I think they would have stuck with him, but they are worried about what he will leave behind. If that's the case they're right, and he's wrong. Dead wrong. The RFU are custodians of the game in England and while a WC win would help paper over the mess in the Premiership it's a serious gamble and torching everything to get it just isn't worth that gamble.

The absence of Shaun Edwards is the single biggest weakness in Gatlands re-appointment. It will be interesting to see what progresses.

Apparently one of the items that had to be agreed by the WRU was "a stipulation of his return being a full root-and-branch review of professional Welsh rugby."

Which is not I think quite how I see the Welsh twist. I think Gatland will deliver a decent world cup campaign, even without Edwards who will likely be winning one elsewhere, they certainly won't capitulate against us in the 6N like they did last time. He'll send them out with fire in their bellies and spite in their hearts before that happens again. But he has a proven track record of not fixing the structural problems in the Welsh game, not caring about them, and prioritising an over performing elite international unit at the expense of everything else. Which is why him overseeing a root and branch review doesn't pass a smell test for me.

[dropkick]

Which is not I think quite how I see the Welsh twist. I think Gatland will deliver a decent world cup campaign, even without Edwards who will likely be winning one elsewhere, they certainly won't capitulate against us in the 6N like they did last time. He'll send them out with fire in their bellies and spite in their hearts before that happens again. But he has a proven track record of not fixing the structural problems in the Welsh game, not caring about them, and prioritising an over performing elite international unit at the expense of everything else. Which is why him overseeing a root and branch review doesn't pass a smell test for me.

Yeah he must be very close to a lot of the WRU board members at this stage. He's not going to go against them but they can maybe use him to help get rid of a region. Him coming back is a win for the WRU. They have made the masses happy again.

[riocard911]

We can expect to see a Borthwick Bounce in the 6N, ar aon nós. I'm dying to see if the Charioteers continue their end-of-first-half demonstrative on-pitch huddle before they head to the dressing room.

[sunshiner1]

by riocard911

We can expect to see a Borthwick Bounce in the 6N, ar aon nós. I'm dying to see if the Charioteers continue their end-of-first-half demonstrative on-pitch huddle before they head to the dressing room.

That was my thinking too. Both Wales and England will be getting good mental bounces coming into the 6 nations and while I don't think we need to start panicking. The 6 nations will definitely be harder than it was last week.

[Twist]

It certainly makes the first game harder to prepare for. God knows what'll come out of Wales. I mean, we know Warren's basic gameplan but everything else is a bit up in the air now.

[Ruckedtobits]

Absolutely delighted we have Wales first in 6N and looking forward to a (Rugby League) master-class from Faz in pre-match communications with media when Gats starts the s£it stirring.

Ireland will definitely have no fear of this or the English game in 6N.

[FLIP]

Jones out confirmed: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/63801857

[dropkick]

Absolutely delighted we have Wales first in 6N and looking forward to a (Rugby League) master-class from Faz in pre-match communications with media when Gats starts the s£it stirring.

Ireland will definitely have no fear of this or the English game in 6N.

The buildup should be interesting. Gatland could easily wind up Schmidt but Faz is a different prospect.

[paddyor]

....
I think Eddie Jones is actually an exceptional coach, a brilliant coach even, in a lot of aspects of the game. More often than not though his employments end up with him figuratively setting the bus on fire and driving it towards the nearest cliff [Australia, Reds, Saracens, now England]. He's a sh*t man-manager and wants to needle and pick fights with everyone. He can't help himself. It's a deeply set part of his personality and he doesn't want to change.

And Japan where the players were set to walk if he stayed on.

[naraic]

I think that the sacking of Jones, whose insights I love hearing with the caveat that he's often spinning, shows that the RFU realise that it's not all about the World Cup. If it was I think they would have stuck with him, but they are worried about what he will leave behind. If that's the case they're right, and he's wrong. Dead wrong. The RFU are custodians of the game in England and while a WC win would help paper over the mess in the Premiership it's a serious gamble and torching everything to get it just isn't worth that gamble.

I'm getting the sense that he has pissed off enough players and assistant coaches that even if was all about the world cup they would be letting him go.

Its just a sense I'm getting from interviews and leaks.

[hugonaut]

I think that the sacking of Jones, whose insights I love hearing with the caveat that he's often spinning, shows that the RFU realise that it's not all about the World Cup. If it was I think they would have stuck with him, but they are worried about what he will leave behind. If that's the case they're right, and he's wrong. Dead wrong. The RFU are custodians of the game in England and while a WC win would help paper over the mess in the Premiership it's a serious gamble and torching everything to get it just isn't worth that gamble.

I think that they have panicked and that it's a bad call.

There's only eight or nine tests before the RWC and Jones has left a coaching group who haven't been together very long and half of whom are rugby league guys [Brett Hodgson, Martin Gleeson, Matt Proudfoot, Richard Cockerill]. He has turned over so many members of staff that the longest serving guy is Proudfoot, who has been there under three seasons ... the three seasons in which England have declined. Brett Hodgson is literally just in the door. Jones hired him a month ago.

Are these guys going to try and continue what Eddie Jones was doing, or are they going to try and get England to play a different style? If it's the latter, they will have about a week together to try and teach them a new pattern before the Six Nations kicks off. If it's the former, why didn't they just keep Jones?

The guy who writes for the Telegraph [Charlie Felix, I think] obviously had something in the works on Jones because he got an article out lickety-split which recalled the key point that the RFU were originally going to let Jones' contract run its course to 2021 and bring in Steve Borthwick, who had been Jones' assistant coach at Japan [2012-15] and, following that, was Jones' assistant coach at England from the start of his tenure.

Then the RFU decided to offer Jones a contract extension in April 2020 to take him up to RWC23, and Borthwick went to coach Leicester rather than take over England.

[sunshiner1]

by hugonaut


I think that they have panicked and that it's a bad call.

There's only eight or nine tests before the RWC and Jones has left a coaching group who haven't been together very long and half of whom are rugby league guys [Brett Hodgson, Martin Gleeson, Matt Proudfoot, Richard Cockerill]. He has turned over so many members of staff that the longest serving guy is Proudfoot, who has been there under three seasons ... the three seasons in which England have declined. Brett Hodgson is literally just in the door. Jones hired him a month ago.

Are these guys going to try and continue what Eddie Jones was doing, or are they going to try and get England to play a different style? If it's the latter, they will have about a week together to try and teach them a new pattern before the Six Nations kicks off. If it's the former, why didn't they just keep Jones?

The guy who writes for the Telegraph [Charlie Felix, I think] obviously had something in the works on Jones because he got an article out lickety-split which recalled the key point that the RFU were originally going to let Jones' contract run its course to 2021 and bring in Steve Borthwick, who had been Jones' assistant coach at Japan [2012-15] and, following that, was Jones' assistant coach at England from the start of his tenure.

Then the RFU decided to offer Jones a contract extension in April 2020 to take him up to RWC23, and Borthwick went to coach Leicester rather than take over England.

Speaking of Borthwick I was impressed by how fast he was able to turn Leicester around after Murphy and I don't share other people's optimism about England now been a soft touch. Borthwick is a fantastic coach and will be on familiar ground with a lot of player he knows who will feel freed now that he's replaced Jones.

[fourthirtythree]

I think that they have panicked and that it's a bad call.

I tend to take people at their word as a starting point when they say why they do something but if winning the world cup is still their number one priority it's most likely the wrong call. On the other hand if the players have finally lost patience with him, and it seems that those stories were true, they risked both a catastrophic failure in the pressured environment of a world cup and a very difficult rebuilding process with no continuity and a serious breakdown of trust with the players. Who is more important, an entire generation of players or a very good at rugby coach? Looking through the squad and wondering who the few are that are on his side you can assume Farrel but not many others. Was his selection of older out of form, but "his" players recently driven by who wasn't trying to undermine him?

On the other hand if Wales really want to reform Welsh rugby rather than put a sticking plaster and perform well for the 6N (to pay for Gatland they'll have to) and world cup then they also have made the wrong call as his track record speaks for itself.

[Dave Cahill]

I think the idea that there is a raft of talented English players who have been ignored by Jones is somewhat wishful.

[fourthirtythree]

I think the idea that there is a raft of talented English players who have been ignored by Jones is somewhat wishful.

I don't think the idea that there are a raft of current English players dissatisfied by him isn't.

[paddyor]

I think the idea that there is a raft of talented English players who have been ignored by Jones is somewhat wishful.

I think the idea that English rugby is effective stuck with the same players as 2019 is absurd.