Emerging Ireland to tour SA

[Aird]

Stats on player maybe interesting but they don’t tell the whole story. Many players with low apparent playing time may well be down to injury and some benefitted immensely through injuries to others for example Doak through Cooney and McElroy through the absence of both Stockdale and Balacoune. I don’t doubt that these two examples would have thrived anyway but they certainly benefitted from the game time. Also the stats state they are based on season 2021/23 I can assure that Balacoune did not play 17 times for Ulster last Season. The Stats do not really reflect the effect of having an established player in the provincial squad that the Emerging player are playing in.
Having said that I have doubts about the timing of tour, but I welcome the recognition that the squad are getting and I suppose with the full national and A squad matches in November they might produce a rabbit out of the hat in time for November or even the RWC..

[ronk]

Stats on player maybe interesting but they don’t tell the whole story. Many players with low apparent playing time may well be down to injury and some benefitted immensely through injuries to others for example Doak through Cooney and McElroy through the absence of both Stockdale and Balacoune. I don’t doubt that these two examples would have thrived anyway but they certainly benefitted from the game time. Also the stats state they are based on season 2021/23 I can assure that Balacoune did not play 17 times for Ulster last Season. The Stats do not really reflect the effect of having an established player in the provincial squad that the Emerging player are playing in.
Having said that I have doubts about the timing of tour, but I welcome the recognition that the squad are getting and I suppose with the full national and A squad matches in November they might produce a rabbit out of the hat in time for November or even the RWC..

https://all.rugby/player/robert-baloucoune

[sunshiner1]

I think it's an exciting squad. I don't know why they didn't just make it Ireland A and be done with it. Probably would have sold more tickets in South Africa and would have tied all those players to us. Especially curious how the 7's players will do.

[neill_m]

I think it's an exciting squad. I don't know why they didn't just make it Ireland A and be done with it. Probably would have sold more tickets in South Africa and would have tied all those players to us. Especially curious how the 7's players will do.

Only Ireland A (Wolfhounds) games v the designated 2nd XV representative team from another country tie players in.

They are playing clubs teams effectively in South Africa so these games like the midweek Ireland Maori games in New Zealand are "non-capturing", even if it had been an Ireland Wolfhounds squad rather than Emerging Ireland. No caps handed out in the Maori games, unsure whether caps would be given on this tour?

The Ireland A All Blacks XV game in November will be a "capture" game and caps handed out.

[Keith]

Im sure a lot of the players are delighted to have been picked, but I don't get the point of this tour at all tbh. Especially given the quality of opposition and the disruption to the provinces.

Its also not the best look for the league when Ireland just take players out for these jollies during the season. I've seen plenty of Welsh posters use it as another stick to beat the league with.

[Dave Cahill]

The Ireland A All Blacks XV game in November will be a "capture" game and caps handed out.

Just to be pedantic, it depends on how the All Blacks classify their team. Their current Next National Senior side is the Junior All Blacks (for clarity, junior does not refer to age, but to it's position in the hierarchy). So, if this is an All Blacks XV, it is not a capture game, but if that XV is classified as the Junior All Blacks, it will be

[neill_m]

The Ireland A All Blacks XV game in November will be a "capture" game and caps handed out.

Just to be pedantic, it depends on how the All Blacks classify their team. Their current Next National Senior side is the Junior All Blacks (for clarity, junior does not refer to age, but to it's position in the hierarchy). So, if this is an All Blacks XV, it is not a capture game, but if that XV is classified as the Junior All Blacks, it will be

This new All Blacks XV have replaced the Junior All Blacks as their designated 2nd team.

https://www.allblacks.com/teams/all-blacks-xv/

[jezzer]

Im sure a lot of the players are delighted to have been picked, but I don't get the point of this tour at all tbh. Especially given the quality of opposition and the disruption to the provinces.

Its also not the best look for the league when Ireland just take players out for these jollies during the season. I've seen plenty of Welsh posters use it as another stick to beat the league with.

I'm sure not just the provinces but also the URC blazers and CVC will not be happy with this move. And they all have a point.

It's like the league can't be content with stability. It has to be mired in reinvention, reformatting, yoyo qualification rules, scheduling nightmares, teams admitted, teams excluded, teams in insolvency.....

FFS, can't we just bed in a format and resist all urges to do anything whatsoever to modify it?

But, independent of that, what the Welsh fans or regions think about this tour isn't worth wasting a millisecond on. Those guys should spend more time looking at themselves and their shambolic role in the league since virtually day one.

[Dave Cahill]

The Ireland A All Blacks XV game in November will be a "capture" game and caps handed out.

Just to be pedantic, it depends on how the All Blacks classify their team. Their current Next National Senior side is the Junior All Blacks (for clarity, junior does not refer to age, but to it's position in the hierarchy). So, if this is an All Blacks XV, it is not a capture game, but if that XV is classified as the Junior All Blacks, it will be

This new All Blacks XV have replaced the Junior All Blacks as their designated 2nd team.

https://www.allblacks.com/teams/all-blacks-xv/

someone should tell World Rugby to update their appendices so! In that case though, it would indeed be a disqualifying level

[sunshiner1]

by jezzer

I'm sure not just the provinces but also the URC blazers and CVC will not be happy with this move. And they all have a point.

It's like the league can't be content with stability. It has to be mired in reinvention, reformatting, yoyo qualification rules, scheduling nightmares, teams admitted, teams excluded, teams in insolvency.....

FFS, can't we just bed in a format and resist all urges to do anything whatsoever to modify it?

But, independent of that, what the Welsh fans or regions think about this tour isn't worth wasting a millisecond on. Those guys should spend more time looking at themselves and their shambolic role in the league since virtually day one.

I agree with you about the URC and if this is a yearly thing then they would have a point but a one off, while prepping for the RWC isn't something I would imagine them been riled up about especially as none of the names going are box office.

[paddyor]

Im sure a lot of the players are delighted to have been picked, but I don't get the point of this tour at all tbh. Especially given the quality of opposition and the disruption to the provinces.

Its also not the best look for the league when Ireland just take players out for these jollies during the season. I've seen plenty of Welsh posters use it as another stick to beat the league with.

I'm sure not just the provinces but also the URC blazers and CVC will not be happy with this move. And they all have a point.

It's like the league can't be content with stability. It has to be mired in reinvention, reformatting, yoyo qualification rules, scheduling nightmares, teams admitted, teams excluded, teams in insolvency.....

FFS, can't we just bed in a format and resist all urges to do anything whatsoever to modify it?

But, independent of that, what the Welsh fans or regions think about this tour isn't worth wasting a millisecond on. Those guys should spend more time looking at themselves and their shambolic role in the league since virtually day one.

Well, up until today the Italians were onboard. So that's 10 of 16 teams or 3 of 5 unions so can't imagine it's a majority opinion. WRT CVC, I dunno. There's probably more growth potential in greater SA engagement than the Welsh valleys so who knows. The Welsh will of course will still be angry. Birch was saying rumours of dropping to 3 abound in Wales so a useful insurance policy too.

[Ruckedtobits]

As far as I can tell, there are no "blazers" in URC. All personnel from Directors down (I.e. other the reps of the Shareholding Unions) are executive employees and are salary earners.

[allezlesverres]

It's very hard to see the point in this tour. IRFU have been saying until recently the point is to increase depth for the World Cup but very few of this squad have even the remotest chance of making a WC 33 man squad. From the coverage emerging it sounds like the provinces (3 of them anyway) had a row with Central IRFU about the enormous disruption the planned tour would have caused to 3 of the provinces. If it had been the planned "fringe" players, I would assume that means the players who would not be in the first XV but could be a sub, or the first in line to be a sub if the preferred option can't play. That would include for example from Ulster people like Tom O'Toole, Treadwell, Timoney, Rob Herring, Stuart McCloskey, and Marcus Rea. The problem is that those are all crucial players Ulster can't do without so if the tour had taken them it would have hugely upset the URC balance.

My issue is that now they have apparently backed down on the original plan, what is even the point of the tour? From the named squad only 3 or 4 players have any chance of making a WC 33 (and of those 3 or 4, at least one was almost definitely going to the WC as matters stand).

[ronk]

If you're going/competing for the squad you're not really depth.

Depth is the people you call into the squad if there are injuries and it's why you call if those guys get injured too.

Give players a taste of the international systems and see where people are. Then give them something to work while there's time.

[allezlesverres]

Its also not the best look for the league when Ireland just take players out for these jollies during the season. I've seen plenty of Welsh posters use it as another stick to beat the league with.

Hadn't even occurred to me til you mentioned it and it's a good point. Shows a real lack of respect for the URC which won't go down well with the sponsors. That may have been another factor in why the plans/players changed.

[Dave Cahill]

I dunno, there's a couple of lads in that squad who could be in the running for the World Cup squad

Robert Baloucoune (Ulster/Enniskillen)*
Nathan Doak (Ulster/Banbridge)
Ciaran Frawley (Leinster/UCD)

in the backs and

Max Deegan (Leinster/Lansdowne)*
Alex Kendellen (Munster/UCC)
Joe McCarthy (Leinster/Dublin University)
Michael Milne (Leinster/UCD)
Cian Prendergast (Connacht)
Dylan Tierney-Martin (Connacht/Corinthians)
Josh Wycherley (Munster/Young Munster)

in the forwards would all consider themselves to be a good season or an unfortunate injury away from a seat on the plane

[Ruckedtobits]

Last season [2021-22] provincial gametime: mins/matches played [starts+subs]

1200+mins
1. Ethan McIlroy (b.2000): 1586mins/22 [21+1]
2. Cian Prendergast (b.2000): 1440mins/21 [20+1]
3. Robert Baloucoune (b.1997): 1236mins/17 [17+0]

1000-1200mins
4. Ciaran Frawley (b.1997): 1096mins/21 [14+7]
5. Stewart Moore (b.1999): 1056mins/16 [10+6]
6. Nathan Doak (b.2001): 1019mins/21 [13+8]

800-1000mins
7. Max Deegan (b.1996): 890mins/18 [8+10]
8. Alex Kendellen (b.2001): 870mins/20 [10+10]
9. Scott Penny (b.1999): 851mins/12 [11+1]
10. Diarmuid Barron (b.1998): 837mins/21 [9+12]
11. Shane Daly (b.1996): 831mins/13 [10+3]

600-800mins
12. Jamie Osborne (b.2001): 776mins/10 [10+0]
13. John Hodnett (b.1999): 749 mins/16 [9+7]
14. Josh Wycherly (b.1999): 707mins/18 [9+10]
15. Caolin Blade (b.1994): 648mins/17 [7+10]
16. Joe McCarthy (b.2001): 629mins/12 [8+4]
17. Calvin Nash (b.1997): 623mins/8 [8+0]

400-600mins
18. Tom Ahern (b.2000): 443/13 [4+9]
19. Jack Crowley (b.2000): 439mins/12 [5+7]

200-400mins
20. Tom Clarkson (b.2000): 291mins/8 [4+4]

100-200mins
21. Callum Reid (b.1999):175mins/5 [0+5]
22. Tom Stewart (b.2001): 155mins/5 [0+5]
23. Dylan Tierney Martin (b.1999): 129mins/5 [1+4]

50-100mins
24. Brian Deeny (b.2000): 95mins/2 [2+0]
25. Alex Soroka (b.2001): 88mins/2 [1+1]
26. Jake Flannery (b.1999): 83mins/2 [1+1]
27. Roman Salanoa (b.1997): 55mins/2 [0+2]

1-50mins
28. Sam Illo (b.2001): 26mins/2 [0+2]
29. Cormac Izuchukwu (b.2000): 18mins/1 [0+1]
30. Michael Milne (b.1999): 11mins/1 [0+1]

0mins
31. Antoine Frisch (b.1996): 0 mins
32. Michael McDonald (b.1999): 0mins
33. Andrew Smith (b.2000): 0 mins
34. James Culhane (b.2002): 0 mins
35. Chay Mullins (b.2002): 0 mins

Well done @Hugonaut. Fantastic research and great stats.

For what it's worth, I don't believe that every player in this Squad is a potential RWC 23 Squad player. But, and in some cases it's a big BUT, there are a number of players who could be included on merit if this Tour is followed by selection against a NZ XV in November or a Squad selection during Autumn Internationals.

Listed below are those I believe come within this category, with a brief explanation of why:

* Cian Prendergast - probably requires an injury to somebody like PO'M
* Robert Baloucoune - Just keep scoring tries & improving your defensive kicking
* Ciaran Frawley - Easterby spelt out the requirements clearly
* Nathan Doak - Probably depends on Murray's form but place-kicking a vital skill
* Alex Kendellan - The closest look-alike in Ireland to JVdF, line-out skill beats Penney
* Diarmuid Barron - An injury to any of the three encumbents could get him in
* Caolin Blade - Possibly the nearest look-alike to JGP and we'll take 3 SHs to RWC
* Joe McCarthy - There's a slot for a TH 2nd Row and he could grab it
* Tom Ahern - If he had a Toner-esque Season for Munster, he could get slot
* Michael Milne - The 3rd LHP slot is not cordoned off. A big season could get him in
* Antoine Frisch - Very very unlikely, but an injury to Bundee or Henshaw would leave a gap
* Michael McDonald - That third SH position will be very competitive
* Andrew Smith - A total dark horse who has grown in 7's to be a superb try scorer.

[Oldschool]

Anyone fancy putting together a "first choice" 23.

Possibly not all where you'd expect them to be:
15. Andrew Smith
14. Robert Balaucoune
13. Shane Daly
12. Antoine Frisch
11. Ethan McElroy
10. Ciaran Frawley
9. Caolin Blade
8. Max Deegan
7. Alex Kendellan
6. Alex Soroka
5. Tom Ahern
4. Joe McCarthy
3. Tom Clarkson
2. Tom Stewart
1. Michael Milne

That's quite a strong looking 1 to 10.
A lot will on Max Deegan in terms of leadership and experience.
The 11 to 15 is very interesting, mouth watering even in terms of anticipation.

[jezzer]

Im sure a lot of the players are delighted to have been picked, but I don't get the point of this tour at all tbh. Especially given the quality of opposition and the disruption to the provinces.

Its also not the best look for the league when Ireland just take players out for these jollies during the season. I've seen plenty of Welsh posters use it as another stick to beat the league with.

I'm sure not just the provinces but also the URC blazers and CVC will not be happy with this move. And they all have a point.

It's like the league can't be content with stability. It has to be mired in reinvention, reformatting, yoyo qualification rules, scheduling nightmares, teams admitted, teams excluded, teams in insolvency.....

FFS, can't we just bed in a format and resist all urges to do anything whatsoever to modify it?

But, independent of that, what the Welsh fans or regions think about this tour isn't worth wasting a millisecond on. Those guys should spend more time looking at themselves and their shambolic role in the league since virtually day one.

Well, up until today the Italians were onboard. So that's 10 of 16 teams or 3 of 5 unions so can't imagine it's a majority opinion. WRT CVC, I dunno. There's probably more growth potential in greater SA engagement than the Welsh valleys so who knows. The Welsh will of course will still be angry. Birch was saying rumours of dropping to 3 abound in Wales so a useful insurance policy too.

I get that totally. I just think the league needs 3 consecutive seasons of total and absolute stability. Zero changes. The shape shifting over the years was probably mostly necessary and COVID obvs exacerbated things.

But now there's a setup that can work. The saffers are in lock stock. Let's put down the set square and calculator and just play rugby.

Imo, that's why this trip is ill-advised.

[Ruckedtobits]

For a long time there's been a growing voice that we don't take the RWC seriously enough and that's why we can't break the Q/F ceiling. Now we're really focusing all of the professional rugby resources on RWC, people are complaining about the impact on the Provincial game.

Let's give it a go and support Emerging Ireland Tour and the game against NZ XV and see what the outcome is. I get it that it's a risk, but that's what sport at the top level is about, risk and reward / disaster.