Men's Six Nations 2022

[riocard911]

I think England are going to get taken to the cleaners big time. France have huge momentum going into this game. A wobble is possible, but I don't think Galthié, Edwards or Dupont are gonna let les roast-beefs deny l'équipe their first slam in over ten years. Not gonna happen, IMO. Not merely will the French be massively up for this fixture and determined to rack up an unassailable lead, I reckon England will have difficulty getting themselves back to the "heroic" levels of last weekend in Twickers. Deep down they all know it was a miserable performance - e.g. 17 secs in the opposition 22 - and will be showing up in Paris with little or no self-belief.

[Oldschool]

on a side note what's the story with Fintan O’Toole’s , I've read we don't know ourselves and blimey he loves a good moan!

I’m not actually a fan but was blitzing through books during the first lockdowns and that happened to be lying around.

That first lock down with no sport at all was brutal thank goodness for youtube!

I reckon wales by 25 Saturday, Ireland by 20 and France by 10

3 Home wins for the good guys

This weekend the good guys include England.

[desperado]

I watched the game back on ITV. Lorenzo Bruno Nero Dallaglio used the word "Heroic" in reference to Engerland about a thousand times
He was in a Dunkirk frame of mind I suppose.

Hopefully when the post-mortem to our shameful bonus point victory in Twickenham is over we can get on looking forward to Super Saturday. This tournament hasn't gone away y'know.

Dunkirk is a pretty good analogy. Heroic but ultimately a heavy defeat and retreat. The longer England don't confront some obvious fundamental issues, the better for us. I suppose if nothing else they will be up for it against the team representing the country they left behind in 1940.

Fintan O’Toole’s book “heroic failure” is interesting about this mindset over there, essentially that when you lose it’s best to spin it in a positive way and flip it around to being arrogant about it, almost a form of gaslighting. There was some stat about a large percentage of statues in london actually being from battles that were lost.

Scott of the Antarctic. A glorious heroic failure, eulogised for his bravery, spirit, self sacrifice etc. Where instead his incompetence was ignored. Manhauling sleds, use of ponies, rubbishing use of skis, having unsuitable clothing, not taking any learnings from Inuit in Arctic etc vs his successful nemesis Amundsen who actually learnt from people who lived for centuries in that environment (used Inuit clothing, skis, sled dogs etc). Other examples the charge of the Light Brigade, Sir John Franklin and his expeditions and search for the Northwest passage. Dunkirk was actually a fairly successful evacuation of the BEF. Its what went before was the problem, i.e. landing a large force to fight a war using 19th century tactics, vs a highly mobile mechanised army using the new (at the time) tactics of blitzkrieg and as far as I can recall Churchill made the point to the nation it should not be considered a victory. Which is unlike the narrative post their defeat last week. Overall your points are on the money. There's very little analysis or questioning of why the hell Ewels did what he did, or why England only managed 16s in the opposing 22. A bit like Scott, Ewels got a clap on the back from everyone within reach on the way of the field, and on the bench - glorious failure like Scott.

[Ruckedtobits]

Demented Mole #61 Podcast is one of the best discussions I've heard on various aspects of the Eng v Ire game with further discussion on the Under 20 phenomenon of teamwork and player development and sandwiched in between an excellent cameo on the Welsh stars against France.

An excellent 50 minutes of knowledgible conversation.

[Oldschoolsocks]

Demented Mole #61 Podcast is one of the best discussions I've heard on various aspects of the Eng v Ire game with further discussion on the Under 20 phenomenon of teamwork and player development and sandwiched in between an excellent cameo on the Welsh stars against France.

An excellent 50 minutes of knowledgible conversation.

Yeah, it was a good listen alright

[JB1973]

England are under Eddie Jones have not just plateaued but they are falling back badly, they don't seem to have a set style of play at all They don't seem to want to be a side relies on physically over powering sides up front and they don't seem to want to be a side that plays a 15 man running game. They seem to be a mix of both and are managing to achieve neither , that world cup final when SA smashed them up front seems to have left a real deep mental scar on them. Jones must be under serious pressure for his job, the players don't look like they are enjoying themselves either (not a surprise when your losing games you would expect to win I suppose)

We are approaching world cup time and at present England are not in the top 4 sides in the world arguably not in the top 5

[Oldschool]

Dunkirk is a pretty good analogy. Heroic but ultimately a heavy defeat and retreat. The longer England don't confront some obvious fundamental issues, the better for us. I suppose if nothing else they will be up for it against the team representing the country they left behind in 1940.

Fintan O’Toole’s book “heroic failure” is interesting about this mindset over there, essentially that when you lose it’s best to spin it in a positive way and flip it around to being arrogant about it, almost a form of gaslighting. There was some stat about a large percentage of statues in london actually being from battles that were lost.

Scott of the Antarctic. A glorious heroic failure, eulogised for his bravery, spirit, self sacrifice etc. Where instead his incompetence was ignored. Manhauling sleds, use of ponies, rubbishing use of skis, having unsuitable clothing, not taking any learnings from Inuit in Arctic etc vs his successful nemesis Amundsen who actually learnt from people who lived for centuries in that environment (used Inuit clothing, skis, sled dogs etc). Other examples the charge of the Light Brigade, Sir John Franklin and his expeditions and search for the Northwest passage. Dunkirk was actually a fairly successful evacuation of the BEF. Its what went before was the problem, i.e. landing a large force to fight a war using 19th century tactics, vs a highly mobile mechanised army using the new (at the time) tactics of blitzkrieg and as far as I can recall Churchill made the point to the nation it should not be considered a victory. Which is unlike the narrative post their defeat last week. Overall your points are on the money. There's very little analysis or questioning of why the hell Ewels did what he did, or why England only managed 16s in the opposing 22. A bit like Scott, Ewels got a clap on the back from everyone within reach on the way of the field, and on the bench - glorious failure like Scott.

TBF the Irish players were very magnanimous with Ewels.

[Oldschool]

England are under Eddie Jones have not just plateaued but they are falling back badly, they don't seem to have a set style of play at all They don't seem to want to be a side relies on physically over powering sides up front and they don't seem to want to be a side that plays a 15 man running game. They seem to be a mix of both and are managing to achieve neither , that world cup final when SA smashed them up front seems to have left a real deep mental scar on them. Jones must be under serious pressure for his job, the players don't look like they are enjoying themselves either (not a surprise when your losing games you would expect to win I suppose)

We are approaching world cup time and at present England are not in the top 4 sides in the world arguably not in the top 5

Jones' grand plan is to mind the Vunipolas until RWC.
Farrell is another player he'll want at the RWC.
SA got lucky in the final. Imagine how we'd manage against most teams, never mind SA, if we lost Furlong in the first minute.
You very quickly seem to have forgotten that England beat NZ comfortably in the SF that most people regarded as the final.
I'm not exactly what Jones' game plan is but he'd love an England v OZ final.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Scott of the Antarctic. A glorious heroic failure, eulogised for his bravery, spirit, self sacrifice etc. Where instead his incompetence was ignored. Manhauling sleds, use of ponies, rubbishing use of skis, having unsuitable clothing, not taking any learnings from Inuit in Arctic etc vs his successful nemesis Amundsen who actually learnt from people who lived for centuries in that environment (used Inuit clothing, skis, sled dogs etc). Other examples the charge of the Light Brigade, Sir John Franklin and his expeditions and search for the Northwest passage. Dunkirk was actually a fairly successful evacuation of the BEF. Its what went before was the problem, i.e. landing a large force to fight a war using 19th century tactics, vs a highly mobile mechanised army using the new (at the time) tactics of blitzkrieg and as far as I can recall Churchill made the point to the nation it should not be considered a victory. Which is unlike the narrative post their defeat last week. Overall your points are on the money. There's very little analysis or questioning of why the hell Ewels did what he did, or why England only managed 16s in the opposing 22. A bit like Scott, Ewels got a clap on the back from everyone within reach on the way of the field, and on the bench - glorious failure like Scott.

Funny I was thinking similar about Scott and Amundsen recently because I saw a couple of things about Amundsen (there was a decent film on Netflix but it seems to have gone) and couldn’t believe that I had heard far more about Scott up until recently.

If the English are treating last weekend’s game as a Dunkirk type victory then hopefully for our sake this weekend will be like the Battle of Britain…we don’t need them to win it…but they just can’t lose.

[JB1973]

England are under Eddie Jones have not just plateaued but they are falling back badly, they don't seem to have a set style of play at all They don't seem to want to be a side relies on physically over powering sides up front and they don't seem to want to be a side that plays a 15 man running game. They seem to be a mix of both and are managing to achieve neither , that world cup final when SA smashed them up front seems to have left a real deep mental scar on them. Jones must be under serious pressure for his job, the players don't look like they are enjoying themselves either (not a surprise when your losing games you would expect to win I suppose)

We are approaching world cup time and at present England are not in the top 4 sides in the world arguably not in the top 5

Jones' grand plan is to mind the Vunipolas until RWC.
Farrell is another player he'll want at the RWC.
SA got lucky in the final. Imagine how we'd manage against most teams, never mind SA, if we lost Furlong in the first minute.
You very quickly seem to have forgotten that England beat NZ comfortably in the SF that most people regarded as the final.
I'm not exactly what Jones' game plan is but he'd love an England v OZ final.

I think that NZ game was the peak for Jones and this England team , can you really see them beating any combo of OZ NZ SA Ireland and France in 3 consecutive knock out games?

[bargepole]

The RWC 2019 semi against NZ certainly was a watershed, we totally dominated them, far more comprehensively than the 19-7 scoreline suggests. But to expect to do the same in the final was never going to work against SA, we needed to play a much more open running style.

I would agree that England aren't in the top 4/5 in the world at present, and on this 6N showing, will be lucky to make the 2023 RWC semi-final. Very few, if any, England players would currently make a World XV, whereas France would arguably have at least 4.

So no great hopes for Saturday, I'm sure Ireland will beat the Scots, but will only finish second to the French Grand Slammers.

[FLIP]

Scotland have dropped Russell to the bench for Saturdays match. Interesting.

[the spoofer]

Scotland have dropped Russell to the bench for Saturdays match. Interesting.

That’s a huge pity. I assume Scotlands odds of winning have shortened!

[cormac]

The RWC 2019 semi against NZ certainly was a watershed, we totally dominated them, far more comprehensively than the 19-7 scoreline suggests. But to expect to do the same in the final was never going to work against SA, we needed to play a much more open running style.

I would agree that England aren't in the top 4/5 in the world at present, and on this 6N showing, will be lucky to make the 2023 RWC semi-final. Very few, if any, England players would currently make a World XV, whereas France would arguably have at least 4.

So no great hopes for Saturday, I'm sure Ireland will beat the Scots, but will only finish second to the French Grand Slammers.

Would be surprised if England don't make the RWC semi-finals. As it stands with regard to form and rankings they're on the easy side of the draw. They should top a group that contains Japan, Argentina, Samoa and Americas 2 and will likely face one of Wales/Australia in the quarter-finals.

[FLIP]

Scotland have dropped Russell to the bench for Saturdays match. Interesting.

That’s a huge pity. I assume Scotlands odds of winning have shortened!

They've put in Kinghorn instead so who knows:

Scotland: Hogg; Graham, Harris, Johnson, Steyn; Kinghorn, Price; M Fagerson, Watson, Darge; Gilchrist, J Gray; Z Fagerson, Turner, Schoeman.

Replacements: Brown, Dell, Nel, Skinner, Bayliss, White, Russell, Bennett.

[Colmodon]

Ireland
15 Hugo Keenan
14 Mac Hansen
13 Garry Ringrose
12 Bundee Aki
11 James Lowe
10 Johnny Sexton
9 Jamison Gibson Park
1 Cian Healy
2 Dan Sheehan
3 Tadhg Furlong
4 Tadhg Beirne
5 Iain Henderson
6 Caelan Doris
7 Josh van der Flier
8 Jack Conan

16 Rob Herring
17 Dave Kilcoyne
18 Finlay Bealham
19 Kieran Treadwell
20 Pete O'Mahony
21 Conor Murray
22 Joey Carbery
23 Robbie Henshaw

[blockhead]

Ireland
15 Hugo Keenan
14 Mac Hansen
13 Garry Ringrose
12 Bundee Aki
11 James Lowe
10 Johnny Sexton
9 Jamison Gibson Park
1 Cian Healy
2 Dan Sheehan
3 Tadhg Furlong
4 Tadhg Beirne
5 Iain Henderson
6 Caelan Doris
7 Josh van der Flier
8 Jack Conan

16 Rob Herring
17 Dave Kilcoyne
18 Finlay Bealham
19 Kieran Treadwell
20 Pete O'Mahony
21 Conor Murray
22 Joey Carbery
23 Robbie Henshaw

Connacht has double the representation of Munster in the Starting 15!
That's gotta hurt.

[jezzer]

Watching the game again and especially the scrums, the English were hugely clever. It wasn't one tactic they used over and over - every scrum had its own dark arts. A lot of them involved the tight head side - George can be seen letting go of his bind on Sinkler in the scrum on their 5m line, so that the TH can slip into Healy's right shoulder and arrow in and down on Sheehan as the pressure comes through. In another Sinkler throws off Killer's bind - both go down but from Reynals position on the other side we look like we hinged. Other times it was a pre-engage and/or Henge and George stepping left.

I give a lot of credit to George. He had a stormer of a game and gave a crafty leadership to their pack that really we were missing in ours. POM and Sexton both spoke with the ref about pre-engage, yet we followed up by chasing the hit ourselves. Not great management but another ref would have prob spotted some of England's shenanigans.

[JB1973]

Surely Hastings would be a better choice at 10 if they were doing to drop Russell?

[jezzer]

England are under Eddie Jones have not just plateaued but they are falling back badly, they don't seem to have a set style of play at all They don't seem to want to be a side relies on physically over powering sides up front and they don't seem to want to be a side that plays a 15 man running game. They seem to be a mix of both and are managing to achieve neither , that world cup final when SA smashed them up front seems to have left a real deep mental scar on them. Jones must be under serious pressure for his job, the players don't look like they are enjoying themselves either (not a surprise when your losing games you would expect to win I suppose)

We are approaching world cup time and at present England are not in the top 4 sides in the world arguably not in the top 5

It's not long ago we were saying the same thing about Ireland. England just need time to bed it in. There were some signs in the game of the first pod and option out the back taking it up quite direct, but then pulling it behind to a very deep three-quarter running a wide arcing line to get around our shooter. It worked a couple of times, but they were let down by some very poor passing and tunnel vision by Simmonds and others.

There's a shape there that got spoiled by errors and by the game circumstances calling for a kicking option. It wasn't a thing of beauty but neither was ours before the Scotland game last year.