Ireland Autumn Internationals 2021

[Ruckedtobits]

Ballacoune appears to the most metres gained of all the Irish players (including Baird). Somebody must have passed him the ball

[riocard911]

Ballacoune appears to the most metres gained of all the Irish players (including Baird). Somebody must have passed him the ball

Take a bow, PO'M!!!

[the spoofer]

Anyone know who the black armbands was for?

[Flash Gordon]

Hello again all.

Back perusing the board after a longish self-imposed exile. Hope all doing well. Hard not to on the rugby front at least after the start to this season.

Thought I'd share a few thoughts on where we seem to be.

Gameplan-wise, I thought the Argie game was very useful and instructive. We're not always going to have soft shoulders and gaping holes in the D, even when our 1-3-2-2 shape is clicking. It was important to validate against a very tough (albeit heavily penalised) defence that the power game is still there for when it's needed and that it hasn't been deemphasised as the team works on being expansive. I don't think it was necessary for us to go away from the Joe Schmidt style because it was boring and abrasive. What was necessary was to go away from it because it was predictable and because JS didn't believe in Plan Bs.

Now it seems we're building more than one way to win, which has been my bugbear with Ireland for more than a decade. It's in the knockout games where you have to show them new looks or you get nullified. The 1-3-2-2 isn't so radical that it can't be figured out to a fair degree so we need to keep adding stuff to the arsenal and not throwing out old JS-era basics that still work. In that respect, we can be very optimistic at last that Ireland will surprise teams for the next two years, or at the very least adapt in-game to how they're being defended.

The other big strategic takeaway for me has been how Ireland are working so hard off-ball to reshape. It's that hard work that allows players be in position early enough to be able to attack the ball and the gainline and not get it static. Front foot ball for me is a function of the reload. Quick reloads give attacking ball, which gives positive collisions which give fast rucks. The same attitude to reloading is being seen in defence where guys like Keenan and Conway have been flying around in the backfield to cover space and fill gaps.

I'm not a fan of an Ireland team not being representative fo the whole island. I don't personally like seeing 12 Leinster players in there any more than I did seeing 9 or 10 Munstermen in their heyday. Not that i'd go for affirmative action, but I hope Nucifora has a concrete plan for improving player pathways in th other 3 provinces. My feeling is that Farrell and Catt consciously wanted a heavy Leinster contingent in place in order to bed in the "new" style. Hopefully, as more players from other provinces are brought into squads/meetups, plays, tactics, calls and alighments can trickle through everywhere. In fairness, none of the Leinster players called on have given any excuses to those watching for them not to be picked.

Squad-wise, things are looking pretty healthy.

On the prop front, I don't agree with the thought that the depth is lacking. I thought Bealham was terrific against NZ and TOT was pretty handy against Arg. Healy is still a beast as a bench option and behind him there is maybe a dropoff to the pool of other options, but it's not drastic. There are no more superlatives for Furlong's performance vs Argentina but it's become so normal for him to be stellar maybe we can just say he was good. Porter is the missing ingredient for this pack and he's what's tipped them into world-class level. He does everythign well and manages it at a frightening pace with no real let-up for 60 mins.

We've gone from desert to oasis at hooker in 2 years. Does anything need to be said, other than I hope the Sheehan hype and the typical meeja/fan proclivity for the next guy doesnt diminish what Kelleher is doing out on the pitch. Herring and Heff are very capable understudies.

I have to watch the Arg game again to see how Baird held up in the physical exchanges and set piece, but his open field performance is another reminder that it's not a 3-lock race for Ireland. I feel bad for Dillane in that maybe the expectations for him are too high when he's picked - in other words that he has to do 150% of what the others have to do in order to be considered a shoe-in in the squad. But he's never really grasped the nettle
fully so the door is open for the 4th lock or 4/6 player.

The back row is an embarassment of riches and yet the top 4 look very tough to dislodge. Timoney is going to get a real shot at it and he deserves it. The 7s programme has been so good to a few of the players who have switched back and he's one of them. He has a huge motor, is a handy distributor and is a great carrier - Ulster with him and Vermeulen will be scary. When POM finally heads west the ideal like-for-like replacement is Leavy, but I get the feeling he's not in Faz's plans for now. Timoney is in the driving seat, maybe even when Connors recovers.
What the current back row do that no other world trio does as well is use their feet through contact. All three of Doris, VDF and Conan are elite at it.

Can we please stop plámássing Murray and just face facts that he doesn't fit. JGP, Casey, McGrath, Blade and Doak (not to mention bete-noire Cooney) all fit the profile to varying degrees. WE DON'T NEED CM ANYMORE AND IT'S NOT TREASON TO ADMIT IT. I'd prefer we put more effort into blooding and trying our SH options than our OH options.

On the topic of which, what is Harry Byrne doing getting test caps? That kid is not ready. I personally don't believe he's ready for Leinster in a HEC game, let along in green. I can imagine he trains really well, but when he's thrown in he proceeds to be wild and impatient. Exuberance of youth maybe, but go and figure that out against Cardiff then come back to me. Carbury is doing pretty fine. If he hadn't to deal with Murray playing inside him he'd have been much bettter ball in hand vs a constantly offside Arg line. His defence was iffy against NZ, I thought it was terrific yesterday. His placekicking is a thing of beauty. Assuming Carty is still not a consideration (an error in my book, tho the pacekicking is an issue) Joey is the clear backup. If he were French or Kiwi, Frawley would have had a crack in the 10 jersey by now. We seem to be fixated on only playing him at 12 now, which is a waste considering Bundee and Robbie are there.

In the centre, there's a ton of positive and a few niggles. Bundee was awesome against NZ. Everyone is lauding the pass from Keenan to Lowe for his try but the real peach was Aki's to Keenan. I'd like to see Bundee vary his offload weaponry - he has the one-handed scoop offload but when it's not on I'd like him to be more inventive a la Lowe. Henshaw needs more time to rate but on his 2021 form in general, he's exceptional. Ringer has been sublime in so may areas it seems churlish to pick at him but his proclivity to step back inside and dip the head for 4m when he has overloads outside him is reaching McFadden proportions.

I'd like to see Connacht's Farrell be brought in when fit and for Hume to get more exposure to the squad. McCloskey doesn't fit for me - I'd be looking elsewhere.

Back three is the area where all test teams have the most options and where there is often the most rotation. While Addison is out, I don't think they can improve on the 5 leading players they have in Conway, Lowe, Keenan, Balacoune and Earls. But it's the area where you always get surprise guys. Keep an eye on Porch and McIlroy heading towards the RWC.

Welcome back lad, we've missed your expert analysis. I think the point of provincial representation is right, ideally you'd want the balance to be more even but as you say the questions aren't being asked of the incumbents with some notable exceptions - Casey was an absolute delight to watch after Murray came off.

For me the question that needs to be asked of the other 3 provinces is one of accountability. Why is it that their academies and systems are not functioning in the way ours is. Why is it that Ulster, Munster and Connacht players aren't forcing their way into the team. This even to the extent where some of the lads picked from other provinces like Beirne, Joey, Conway and Timoney also came from Leinster. The IRFU funds the provinces to produce players so why isn't there more accountability on that front?

It was good to see Joey do well but I agree with you on Frawley. I'd love to see him at 10, the guy reminds me of Paul Dean and as you say there's a bit of a log jam at 12 of good players.

[jezzer]

It was good to see Joey do well but I agree with you on Frawley. I'd love to see him at 10, the guy reminds me of Paul Dean and as you say there's a bit of a log jam at 12 of good players.

He's objectively a better rugby player than Harry right now and has played 10. He can be our Ntamack/Farrell type 10/12. I have no clue if he'll be test standard but i already feel i have a clue about Harry, Ross and Billy Burns. What's to lose?

[wixfjord]

It was good to see Joey do well but I agree with you on Frawley. I'd love to see him at 10, the guy reminds me of Paul Dean and as you say there's a bit of a log jam at 12 of good players.

He's objectively a better rugby player than Harry right now and has played 10. He can be our Ntamack/Farrell type 10/12. I have no clue if he'll be test standard but i already feel i have a clue about Harry, Ross and Billy Burns. What's to lose?

He's objectively a better 12, but not a better 10 than Harry. In fact Frawley had some pretty mixed showings in the 10 jersey for us.

Both are incredible talents mind, but for now it seems Frawley is a 12.

If Ross decided to move on that could change quickly.

[ronk]

Frawley can be the odd man out in a 4 way looking for 1 position.

We're averaging 2 outhalves with short term international ambitions per province.

Or he can play 12 where he's the main man when Henshaw is away, which is often. He had enough success that he made the Irish squad. And is playing really well.

Aki is 31, Henshaw likes 13. There have been plenty of injuries to go around.

The only way I'd see Frawley doing well on a sustained run at 10 would be with a 12 like him beside him. Everything points to him staying 12, even before the new rugby Ireland are playing.

That said I'm a huge fan of a genuine 10-12 like Contepomi (his coach) or Farrell (his coaches son).

[jezzer]

Frankly, I haven't seen Harry do anything at all to justify being capped yet. His showing yesterday was confirmation, if it was really needed, that he needs to be back building up game minutes at Leinster as best he can.

So, if Cartys face doesn't fit and we want a 3rd OH who isn't Ross or Burns, the options are realistically Frawley and maybe as a longshot Crowley.

Frawley has shown some test-class level play. He's gone away and improved aspects of his game (his defence early on was "young Noel Reid-esque"), he's shown he can execute when he comes on. He has a very composed demeanour and his error count is very low. That's something you can work with.

You can't work with a young, injury-prone, erratic fly half who is trying to make the Hollywood play every time he gets a touch. That guy needs to go off and learn to calm down.

[jezzer]

Frawley can be the odd man out in a 4 way looking for 1 position.

We're averaging 2 outhalves with short term international ambitions per province.

Or he can play 12 where he's the main man when Henshaw is away, which is often. He had enough success that he made the Irish squad. And is playing really well.

Aki is 31, Henshaw likes 13. There have been plenty of injuries to go around.

The only way I'd see Frawley doing well on a sustained run at 10 would be with a 12 like him beside him. Everything points to him staying 12, even before the new rugby Ireland are playing.

That said I'm a huge fan of a genuine 10-12 like Contepomi (his coach) or Farrell (his coaches son).

Why can't he do both? Move around on horses for courses basis or as needed? As per Ntamack and Farrell and Barrett....

[ronk]

Maybe he can.

I suspect a lot of his success came from concentrating on 1 position. Injuries are his biggest barrier to gametime. I'd say it's more a matter of circumstance that's stopping him playing 10 right now.

[IanD]

He's hurting the game. Don't care how much it's on purpose.

Ireland beat New Zealand. It wasn't Leinster won part of the game and Munster subs won another part. Fans have their favourites and it's natural that some of those favourites are also your provincial favourites. But they're all Ireland players, whether they're even Irish.

Headlining an article Reds in Reserve is trying to divide Irish players and fans. Beirne played well and made a valuable impact. Do we really need articles gushing about him being one of the players in a ruck before Doris's try.

Or does it fit with someone who says I'm only here to support one provinces players on the Irish team because the rivalry comes first?

The 42 weekly have been banging this drum for a while. Not just in terms of provincial players but about pathways for players outside the schools set up to get a chance. It's not entirely unreasonable IMO to demand more from the provinces and the IRFU to develop better pathways(which they are doing a bit of anyway tbf). Kinsella did a bit about it this week wrt the conhesiveness of the leinster players and the Munster one that replaced them. Theres an upside to it on the pitch but it does raise questions for Connacht and Ulster players who can't get a look in. Will Jack Carty or Stewart MCloskey hang around in Ireland if they have no international prospects(On a previous episode Birch suggested Carty would be off at the end of the season to Clermont). There's no clear way to square the circle but it's worth discussion as it will impact the provinical game going forward.

RTE news : Carty signs long-term extension at Connacht

http://www.rte.ie/sport/united-rugby-ch ... -connacht/

This did not age well.

[dropkick]

Have to say it was a great November from an Ireland point of view. After the win against England and then the summer tests against Japan and USA, everyone was wondering if they would continue that style of play. We got the answer.


If nothing else the players love the new style. It's less attritional, more exciting, less robotic, more skill based, less micro managed. It's harder to defend too as we saw.


Argentina stopped the wide attack which left space up the middle for the forwards to make plenty of yardage. Lowes boot also used to good effect with his ability to kick long which imo is underrated.


Credit to Mike Catt who looks as though he's been given the green light by Farrell. Also POC has made an obvious difference since he came in. Easterby seemed a step down from Plumtree and POC feels a step up from Easterby. It was a good move by Farrell. Also the sports psychologist Gary Keegan is highly rated. The start of the second half against NZ was very encouraging after being behind at half time.

Having young starters and old heads coming off the bench was a success. It's what they could eventually do with Sexton to prolong his career.
​​

Negatives for me was the lack of rotation and the failure to translate our dominance to the scoreboard against NZ.


There were a few late call ups yesterday which gave more opportunity to players but there should have been more. The scoreline confirms this. There was no need to play the same players again especially since they play together all year round. They looked cohesive in game 1. You can always perfect things but I think a chance was missed.


The Ireland camp are trying to dampen the hype and no harm in that. It's not that France proved NZ were tired. I'd say making 235 tackled against ireland did that. But against Ireland they were a forward pass and a tackle away from possibly winning despite ireland dominating. So there's still some improvements there. The offloads against Japan were 18, against NZ it was 2. That indicates to me ireland tightened up a bit although I accept that they would get less opportunity to offload against the NZ defence.


A major leap forward overall. Hopefully we get some A matches this season to boost player development. The tour of NZ will be great for the players.

[hugonaut]

The end of this series of Autumn Internationals means that we are less than two years away from RWC23. It's more or less a mid-point between the two tournaments.

I took a look at Joe Schmidt's RWC19 squad to check the cut-off date for players selected for that squad having made their test debut, using the end of the 2017 Autumn Internationals as the equivalent marker [i.e. two years out from RWC19].

Of the 33 players who went to Japan [the original 31 players plus replacements Herring and Murphy], 30 of them had made their test debut by the end of November 2017.

The three who were yet to feature:
§ Jordan Larmour [21] - debut 10.02.18 [Six Nations 2018]
§ Tadhg Beirne [26] - 16.06.18 [Summer Tour 2018] – playing in Wales during 2016-18
§ Jean Kleyn [25] - 10.08.19 [RWC Warm-ups 2019] – project player, became eligible for selection in Aug 2019

I thought it was interesting that two second rows were the last guys in the mix. I'm not going to get into the Kleyn selection other than to say the same things I've said before: it looked like a low-upside selection and turned out to be even worse, and he didn't pick himself. We're not going to have the same project player rush this time out. That train has sailed. It's also very, very difficult to think of a player plying his trade outside the country who could bang down the door for selection as Tadhg Beirne did. Whoever it is, he would want to be doing it this season.

Going to RWC19, Kleyn had 3 caps, Beirne had 8, Ryan had 19 and Henderson had 48. There was obviously a lot of turnover from the second rows who went to RWC15, namely O'Connell [35 y.o.], Donnacha Ryan [31 y.o.], Dev [29 y.o.] and Hendo [23 y.o.] ... Mike McCarthy [33] also went out as sub for POC.

Obviously it is not impossible that somebody comes from outside this year's depth chart to get picked, but I think it is quite unlikely. So for fans of Tom Ahern, Jack Crowley, Scott Penny, Cormac Izuchukwu, Tommy O'Brien, Aaron Sexton, Jamie Osborne, Alex Kendellen, Nathan Doak, Tom Clarkson etc., all of whom would have people thinking that they might be an outside bet for the squad, I think it's time to start realising just how outside that bet is.

[blockhead]

52 players used in the 10 games in 2021. Those numbers make even plumber look quite conservative.
Faz has played a blinder since those early frustrating losses to Wales and France. Y'know we've won those last 8 games by an average winning margin of nearly 30pts!
In 2021 three new front row options have been established, Porter II, Sheehan and Kelleher.
A 2nd Row stick of gelignite in Baird.
Back rowers Doris, Conan, Flier II and Coombes (Unlucky not to get some gametime)
Casey and a glimpse in the U21s of Doak (very giddy about this guy). And lets face it JCB has been a revelation of late.
Joey's back, I do beleive. That cameo against the All Blacks has turned his frown upside down and the only way is up for him now.
Baloucoune, we only saw tiny glimpse's, but the fact he got picked at 14 for the Argentina game when Conway was doing just fine thank you very much, just shows that Faz'n'co really rate this kid.
Keenan played every minute in 2021 until the last few minutes at the weekend, the NZ comms were very impressed.
Lowe, yes the defensive issue's have been put on hold rather than been eradicated, but his attacking ability at the highest level has been confirmed, he puts our attack into overdrive, and the stats back that up.
And all the while its been very easy on the eye. How many seats were sold in the last few days before the Argentina game? About 7,000? the public are excited again about the Ireland team.
Even POM, Mr Anrgy, says its the happiest enviroment he has ever been in, POM FFS! The lads must be bouncing into camp.

[Ruckedtobits]

The end of this series of Autumn Internationals means that we are less than two years away from RWC23. It's more or less a mid-point between the two tournaments.

I took a look at Joe Schmidt's RWC19 squad to check the cut-off date for players selected for that squad having made their test debut, using the end of the 2017 Autumn Internationals as the equivalent marker [i.e. two years out from RWC19].

Of the 33 players who went to Japan [the original 31 players plus replacements Herring and Murphy], 30 of them had made their test debut by the end of November 2017.

The three who were yet to feature:
§ Jordan Larmour [21] - debut 10.02.18 [Six Nations 2018]
§ Tadhg Beirne [26] - 16.06.18 [Summer Tour 2018] – playing in Wales during 2016-18
§ Jean Kleyn [25] - 10.08.19 [RWC Warm-ups 2019] – project player, became eligible for selection in Aug 2019

I thought it was interesting that two second rows were the last guys in the mix. I'm not going to get into the Kleyn selection other than to say the same things I've said before: it looked like a low-upside selection and turned out to be even worse, and he didn't pick himself. We're not going to have the same project player rush this time out. That train has sailed. It's also very, very difficult to think of a player plying his trade outside the country who could bang down the door for selection as Tadhg Beirne did. Whoever it is, he would want to be doing it this season.

Going to RWC19, Kleyn had 3 caps, Beirne had 8, Ryan had 19 and Henderson had 48. There was obviously a lot of turnover from the second rows who went to RWC15, namely O'Connell [35 y.o.], Donnacha Ryan [31 y.o.], Dev [29 y.o.] and Hendo [23 y.o.] ... Mike McCarthy [33] also went out as sub for POC.

Obviously it is not impossible that somebody comes from outside this year's depth chart to get picked, but I think it is quite unlikely. So for fans of Tom Ahern, Jack Crowley, Scott Penny, Cormac Izuchukwu, Tommy O'Brien, Aaron Sexton, Jamie Osborne, Alex Kendellen, Nathan Doak, Tom Clarkson etc., all of whom would have people thinking that they might be an outside bet for the squad, I think it's time to start realising just how outside that bet is.

The only players who might graduate to international level in the second-row within the necessary timescale are Gavin Thornbury and Quinn Roux, although the latter would be a totally outside bet as he is under contract with Toulon.

Thornbury is rehabbing a shoulder injury and has not played above Provincial level although he had particularly good performances against Munster and Ulster in the past 12 months. Were he to make a return and continue from where he left off, his 2.02m, 115kg frame might just about have sufficient time to convince Farrell, Easterby & O'Connell to bring him into camp and assess whether he might be worth including in a Squad to NZ

At age 27, Thornbury has collected injuries to every part of his physique and has rarely had a long injury-free run. However, if he could get through the next 6 months with high level performances in a Connacht team brimming with promise, he could fill that vacant 4/5 jersey.

The other position widely cited as being available is the slot behind Furlong at THP. Here the prospect list is slightly longer and definitely more varied.

Finlay Bealham and Tom O'Toole are the most obvious candidates and thus far, Bealham has had far more opportunity to impress and appears to discharge the task off the bench for c. 30 - 40 mins. However, how diminished would our scrum be if we had to start Bealham against South Africa or France in a key game.

Will O'Toole get sufficient first-choice game time in Ulster to convince O'Connell & Fogarty that he is the 'real deal', just in need of adequate game time? Ironically, one of those who might deprive him of that game time is former international & current team-mate Marty Moore.

There is no issues with Moore's skill levels. His scrum work has always met the highest standards and his handling skills would suit the current national flow. However, his fitness and prolonged carrying ability is the big question mark over his prospects to advance his case. This Irish Squad doesn't carry any passengers. If you can't maintain the high tempo continuity, there is no excuse acceptable, nor does excellence in any individual skill allow exemption from the highest fitness levels. For a prop, this means that Furlong and Porter are setting the fitness baseline and it's at a very heady level.

The other candidates have very considerable ground to make up. John Ryan has been unfortunate with injury but, when fully fit, meets many of the requirements, certainly as a player who can close-out a final 20 + minutes. Tom Clarkson has been promoted as a future international but he does not come from the Porter / Furlong factory and his physique will need constant work and experience to ready him for a big green jersey. Aungier & Knox have emerged at Provincial level in the past year but both have too much ground to make up to be considered real candidates for RWC2023.

[Oldschool]

It was good to see Joey do well but I agree with you on Frawley. I'd love to see him at 10, the guy reminds me of Paul Dean and as you say there's a bit of a log jam at 12 of good players.

He's objectively a better rugby player than Harry right now and has played 10. He can be our Ntamack/Farrell type 10/12. I have no clue if he'll be test standard but i already feel i have a clue about Harry, Ross and Billy Burns. What's to lose?

Great post earlier.
If you accept that Frawley isn't being considered as an OH by either Leinster or Ireland then you're left "who's left".
Carty imho is one of the best three OHs in the country.
HB is probably next in line.
Ideally any aspiring international player should have had at least HCC exposure and preferably at knockout level.
RB has and HB hasn't.
If Sexton was younger perhaps there would be no need to fast track at least one of the younger OHs
HB is probably getting the nod on the basis of the coaching expertise available to him at Leinster.

[Twist]

The end of this series of Autumn Internationals means that we are less than two years away from RWC23. It's more or less a mid-point between the two tournaments.

I took a look at Joe Schmidt's RWC19 squad to check the cut-off date for players selected for that squad having made their test debut, using the end of the 2017 Autumn Internationals as the equivalent marker [i.e. two years out from RWC19].

Of the 33 players who went to Japan [the original 31 players plus replacements Herring and Murphy], 30 of them had made their test debut by the end of November 2017.

The three who were yet to feature:
§ Jordan Larmour [21] - debut 10.02.18 [Six Nations 2018]
§ Tadhg Beirne [26] - 16.06.18 [Summer Tour 2018] – playing in Wales during 2016-18
§ Jean Kleyn [25] - 10.08.19 [RWC Warm-ups 2019] – project player, became eligible for selection in Aug 2019

I thought it was interesting that two second rows were the last guys in the mix. I'm not going to get into the Kleyn selection other than to say the same things I've said before: it looked like a low-upside selection and turned out to be even worse, and he didn't pick himself. We're not going to have the same project player rush this time out. That train has sailed. It's also very, very difficult to think of a player plying his trade outside the country who could bang down the door for selection as Tadhg Beirne did. Whoever it is, he would want to be doing it this season.

Going to RWC19, Kleyn had 3 caps, Beirne had 8, Ryan had 19 and Henderson had 48. There was obviously a lot of turnover from the second rows who went to RWC15, namely O'Connell [35 y.o.], Donnacha Ryan [31 y.o.], Dev [29 y.o.] and Hendo [23 y.o.] ... Mike McCarthy [33] also went out as sub for POC.

Obviously it is not impossible that somebody comes from outside this year's depth chart to get picked, but I think it is quite unlikely. So for fans of Tom Ahern, Jack Crowley, Scott Penny, Cormac Izuchukwu, Tommy O'Brien, Aaron Sexton, Jamie Osborne, Alex Kendellen, Nathan Doak, Tom Clarkson etc., all of whom would have people thinking that they might be an outside bet for the squad, I think it's time to start realising just how outside that bet is.

The only players who might graduate to international level in the second-row within the necessary timescale are Gavin Thornbury and Quinn Roux, although the latter would be a totally outside bet as he is under contract with Toulon.

Thornbury is rehabbing a shoulder injury and has not played above Provincial level although he had particularly good performances against Munster and Ulster in the past 12 months. Were he to make a return and continue from where he left off, his 2.02m, 115kg frame might just about have sufficient time to convince Farrell, Easterby & O'Connell to bring him into camp and assess whether he might be worth including in a Squad to NZ

At age 27, Thornbury has collected injuries to every part of his physique and has rarely had a long injury-free run. However, if he could get through the next 6 months with high level performances in a Connacht team brimming with promise, he could fill that vacant 4/5 jersey.

The other position widely cited as being available is the slot behind Furlong at THP. Here the prospect list is slightly longer and definitely more varied.

Finlay Bealham and Tom O'Toole are the most obvious candidates and thus far, Bealham has had far more opportunity to impress and appears to discharge the task off the bench for c. 30 - 40 mins. However, how diminished would our scrum be if we had to start Bealham against South Africa or France in a key game.

Will O'Toole get sufficient first-choice game time in Ulster to convince O'Connell & Fogarty that he is the 'real deal', just in need of adequate game time? Ironically, one of those who might deprive him of that game time is former international & current team-mate Marty Moore.

There is no issues with Moore's skill levels. His scrum work has always met the highest standards and his handling skills would suit the current national flow. However, his fitness and prolonged carrying ability is the big question mark over his prospects to advance his case. This Irish Squad doesn't carry any passengers. If you can't maintain the high tempo continuity, there is no excuse acceptable, nor does excellence in any individual skill allow exemption from the highest fitness levels. For a prop, this means that Furlong and Porter are setting the fitness baseline and it's at a very heady level.

The other candidates have very considerable ground to make up. John Ryan has been unfortunate with injury but, when fully fit, meets many of the requirements, certainly as a player who can close-out a final 20 + minutes. Tom Clarkson has been promoted as a future international but he does not come from the Porter / Furlong factory and his physique will need constant work and experience to ready him for a big green jersey. Aungier & Knox have emerged at Provincial level in the past year but both have too much ground to make up to be considered real candidates for RWC2023.

Marty Moore is a bit of an enigma. As you say, he has everything except the fitness. Fitness should be the easiest component to come by. There aren't many Irish tightheads with 2 Six Nations medals in their pockets, so you'd expect every effort to be made to get him up to the required fitness standard.

Maybe he's just not motivated enough. Here's what he said in June;

“It’s been so long since I’ve been in that environment that it’s not really part of my goal setting and objectives. It’s something that every player aspires to, but it’s not something that I put as a marker of where I’m at. If it did come to that then that’d be great, but I don’t grade myself by that benchmark.”

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/spor ... 89336.html

[CiaranIrl]

The end of this series of Autumn Internationals means that we are less than two years away from RWC23. It's more or less a mid-point between the two tournaments.

I took a look at Joe Schmidt's RWC19 squad to check the cut-off date for players selected for that squad having made their test debut, using the end of the 2017 Autumn Internationals as the equivalent marker [i.e. two years out from RWC19].

Of the 33 players who went to Japan [the original 31 players plus replacements Herring and Murphy], 30 of them had made their test debut by the end of November 2017.

The three who were yet to feature:
§ Jordan Larmour [21] - debut 10.02.18 [Six Nations 2018]
§ Tadhg Beirne [26] - 16.06.18 [Summer Tour 2018] – playing in Wales during 2016-18
§ Jean Kleyn [25] - 10.08.19 [RWC Warm-ups 2019] – project player, became eligible for selection in Aug 2019

I thought it was interesting that two second rows were the last guys in the mix. I'm not going to get into the Kleyn selection other than to say the same things I've said before: it looked like a low-upside selection and turned out to be even worse, and he didn't pick himself. We're not going to have the same project player rush this time out. That train has sailed. It's also very, very difficult to think of a player plying his trade outside the country who could bang down the door for selection as Tadhg Beirne did. Whoever it is, he would want to be doing it this season.

Going to RWC19, Kleyn had 3 caps, Beirne had 8, Ryan had 19 and Henderson had 48. There was obviously a lot of turnover from the second rows who went to RWC15, namely O'Connell [35 y.o.], Donnacha Ryan [31 y.o.], Dev [29 y.o.] and Hendo [23 y.o.] ... Mike McCarthy [33] also went out as sub for POC.

Obviously it is not impossible that somebody comes from outside this year's depth chart to get picked, but I think it is quite unlikely. So for fans of Tom Ahern, Jack Crowley, Scott Penny, Cormac Izuchukwu, Tommy O'Brien, Aaron Sexton, Jamie Osborne, Alex Kendellen, Nathan Doak, Tom Clarkson etc., all of whom would have people thinking that they might be an outside bet for the squad, I think it's time to start realising just how outside that bet is.

Ross Molony is the uncapped player that comes to mind for me that could break through between now and then. There has been a huge leap forward in his play this season so far, and I personally think he should have made the squad. If he keeps the rate of development up, he could absolutely force his way into the conversation. After him, the biggest opportunity and need for Ireland is probably at loosehead or tighthead. One of the younger props could have a massive 2022/23 season and push their way into the extended squad. The players with the highest ceiling that are uncapped are probably Doak, Osbourne and Penny, but the issue for them is that they will be trying to push past outstanding players where we don't have the same level of need.

[paddyor]

He's hurting the game. Don't care how much it's on purpose.

Ireland beat New Zealand. It wasn't Leinster won part of the game and Munster subs won another part. Fans have their favourites and it's natural that some of those favourites are also your provincial favourites. But they're all Ireland players, whether they're even Irish.

Headlining an article Reds in Reserve is trying to divide Irish players and fans. Beirne played well and made a valuable impact. Do we really need articles gushing about him being one of the players in a ruck before Doris's try.

Or does it fit with someone who says I'm only here to support one provinces players on the Irish team because the rivalry comes first?

The 42 weekly have been banging this drum for a while. Not just in terms of provincial players but about pathways for players outside the schools set up to get a chance. It's not entirely unreasonable IMO to demand more from the provinces and the IRFU to develop better pathways(which they are doing a bit of anyway tbf). Kinsella did a bit about it this week wrt the conhesiveness of the leinster players and the Munster one that replaced them. Theres an upside to it on the pitch but it does raise questions for Connacht and Ulster players who can't get a look in. Will Jack Carty or Stewart MCloskey hang around in Ireland if they have no international prospects(On a previous episode Birch suggested Carty would be off at the end of the season to Clermont). There's no clear way to square the circle but it's worth discussion as it will impact the provinical game going forward.

RTE news : Carty signs long-term extension at Connacht

http://www.rte.ie/sport/united-rugby-ch ... -connacht/

This did not age well.

[Flash Gordon]

Frankly, I haven't seen Harry do anything at all to justify being capped yet. His showing yesterday was confirmation, if it was really needed, that he needs to be back building up game minutes at Leinster as best he can.

So, if Cartys face doesn't fit and we want a 3rd OH who isn't Ross or Burns, the options are realistically Frawley and maybe as a longshot Crowley.

Frawley has shown some test-class level play. He's gone away and improved aspects of his game (his defence early on was "young Noel Reid-esque"), he's shown he can execute when he comes on. He has a very composed demeanour and his error count is very low. That's something you can work with.

You can't work with a young, injury-prone, erratic fly half who is trying to make the Hollywood play every time he gets a touch. That guy needs to go off and learn to calm down.

We were saying the same in the ground. He was trying too hard whereas he needed to focus on getting the basics right. You can kind of understand it in that he's a young player trying to impress but he really needs to build a body of work at Leinster,