Ireland 2021-22

[betty swallocks]

by hugonaut

Not everyone has the talent or physical attributes to be a 50-cap international. Micko had a very long and successful career for Munster and played well enough to be voted by his team-mates as Munster Player of the Year in 2009-10.

MOD is the reason why Munster won the Celtic League one year. I think 2010/11? DOC and POC barley played a game in the league and it was up to MOD to lead the team which he did with aplomb. He was the type of player most teams would give their right arm for.

Plus O'Driscoll did well in the south of France. Model professional.

[Oldschoolsocks]

Agreed, but I thought we were talking if international standard second rows,

[sunshiner1]

by Oldschoolsocks

Agreed, but I thought we were talking if international standard second rows,

MOD was capped 23 times internationally.

[Fan with smartphone]

by hugonaut » December 27th, 2021, 12:56 pm
Forwards [1-8]: Jack McGrath, Dan Sheehan, Tom O'Toole, Ryan Baird, Niall Murray, Dan Leavy, Nick Timoney, Gavin Coombes;
Backs [9-15]: John Cooney, Harry Byrne, Jacob Stockdale, Stuart McCloskey, James Hume, Jordan Larmour, Mack Hansen;
Subs [16-23]: Pete Dooley, Dave Heffernan, Marty Moore, Tom Ahern, Will Connors, Craig Casey, Ciaran Frawley, Robert Baloucoune.

Interesting team. No Knox. Is it because you think he's too inexperienced? Also why Ahern over Thornbury? Poor Lowry can't even make the Wolfhounds.

Lowry is a munchkin. Put him in a test match and watch teams rain bombs on a 170cm fullback against 190cm+ outside backs.

I don't think much about Knox at all, he never plays.
> Tom O'Toole [b. Sep 1998] - 68 [25+43] games /2594mins for Ulster
> Keynan Knox [b. Apr 1999] - 18 [5+13] games/562 mins for Munster

Ahern is an athletic marvel. He's absolutely wasted in Munster, he should be telling his agent to get him a move to somewhere where he actually might get a run.

EDIT: I'm serious about Ahern – he's so far behind where he should be and where Ireland need him to be. He was born in February '20 and Ryan Baird was born in July '99: Baird is only seven months older than him. Baird has played 40 pro games [including 6 test matches] and over 1820 mins of pro rugby while Ahern has played in 9 pro games and 320 mins.

This has been playing on my mind way more than it should over Christmas. It’s been niggling at me since I heard O’Driscoll in commentary implying something very similar. They were praising Lowry for doing something very well. O’Driscoll was along the lines of he’s very good and done very well for Ulster and he’s a bit like Chelsin Kolbe. But, basically he’s too small for international rugby, international rugby is different, and he’s not Chelsin Kolbe.
I was shocked to hear O’Driscoll of all ex-players say that. Maybe it’s blind deference but I’ve always taken his opinion as more or less truth. When Hugonaut says it too - I have to really examine my thinking here.

But I think this is the common attitude towards Lowry and I think it’s unfair. I’d argue that this is an important point towards this individual player and towards what type of sport you want to see. I also think his performances are worthy of closer scrutiny than just listing his measurables. For the individual player - as Ronk noted in a separate thread - he is talking about being a 10 long term. Is this motivated by being told he is too wee? Is it a smart idea for him. I’d agree with Ronk on this one : it’s not. And for what you want to see - well, what sort of skills do we want to see in our fullbacks? Is number one on your list bomb disposal and safety? I think that may be outdated and self-limiting.

My case involves a a few opinions about tangiblish things. First of all - an absolute key skill for a full back now is covering the backfield. With 50-22, some people will tell you it’s now more important than aerial domination. Lowry is very good at this - it’s a real strength. He is in the right place generally and when the ball is in the air he is moving. Fast. It means he gets to the pitch of the ball early and when he runs back he is thinking: attack. Rob Kearney was very good at the backfield cover and we didn’t have anybody else to do it, but Kearney used to get it and just seek contact to set up a ruck. Lowry is a threat in his own right. Larmour has the attack bit but his reading isn’t at Lowry’s level, yet.

He makes his tackles. Small fullbacks are not new. There are plenty of examples of it. Leigh Hallpenny is a bit taller than Lowry, but i see similarities in their defence. Halfpenny had to be a good tackler - and he was. He went on a run like Virgil van Dijk for a while where he never missed a tackle for years. I don’t know Lowry’s individual tackle stats, but my impression is that he generally gets his man down. He’s brave and strong, technically good, and even when technique is wrong - he makes it work.

Lowry can be a second playmaker. Ronk put it well - 10 in 7s, 15 in 15s. Hugo Keenan has been outstanding at 15 and giving an option on both sides of the ruck/pitch. He will sometimes stack from deep too and cover great ground to create. I don’t have gps, but my impression is that Keenan covers huge ground when Ireland or Leinster have the ball. Not just as a backfield cover but on phase attacks. It’s a massive part of Ireland’s attacking game at this stage. Sometimes he is a decoy, sometimes not. And when he gets it, he is a good decision maker and finisher. That has nowt to do with height and I think it’s again something Lowry does well. He’s done it for Ulster. Imagine him playing behind the Leinster pack this last few years. He’d have had absolute field days.

Finally, he’s actually good in the air! Again, stats on it need closer inspection, but what i see on thé tape is good timing, good hands, and relative calm. If teams are gonna kick the ball away to attack him, in this day and age, I think I can live with that.

So, I’m really reluctant to fight Hugonaut and O’Driscoll on any hill, but I’m gonna do it on the hill of giving Michael Lowry a chance, or at least closer inspection.

[ronk]

The warning signs should already be evident at lower level. But Lowry isn't a liability.

I have a theory about really small elusive players and that's that they compliment the big ones. Hence why huge French and South African teams often have a really slight winger. If you spend all day planting your feet for big collisions then that change is a real problem. The Ulster backline has size in McCloskey, Hume, Stockdale. They can do a little protecting in defence and soften up opposition's so their feet are heavy.

[ormond lad]

by hugonaut » December 27th, 2021, 12:56 pm
Forwards [1-8]: Jack McGrath, Dan Sheehan, Tom O'Toole, Ryan Baird, Niall Murray, Dan Leavy, Nick Timoney, Gavin Coombes;
Backs [9-15]: John Cooney, Harry Byrne, Jacob Stockdale, Stuart McCloskey, James Hume, Jordan Larmour, Mack Hansen;
Subs [16-23]: Pete Dooley, Dave Heffernan, Marty Moore, Tom Ahern, Will Connors, Craig Casey, Ciaran Frawley, Robert Baloucoune.

Interesting team. No Knox. Is it because you think he's too inexperienced? Also why Ahern over Thornbury? Poor Lowry can't even make the Wolfhounds.

Lowry is a munchkin. Put him in a test match and watch teams rain bombs on a 170cm fullback against 190cm+ outside backs.

I don't think much about Knox at all, he never plays.
> Tom O'Toole [b. Sep 1998] - 68 [25+43] games /2594mins for Ulster
> Keynan Knox [b. Apr 1999] - 18 [5+13] games/562 mins for Munster

Ahern is an athletic marvel. He's absolutely wasted in Munster, he should be telling his agent to get him a move to somewhere where he actually might get a run.

EDIT: I'm serious about Ahern – he's so far behind where he should be and where Ireland need him to be. He was born in February '20 and Ryan Baird was born in July '99: Baird is only seven months older than him. Baird has played 40 pro games [including 6 test matches] and over 1820 mins of pro rugby while Ahern has played in 9 pro games and 320 mins.

Ahern only really started playing second row late on in age grade rugby. Baird may be only 7 months older but was playing second row and lot of rugby years before Tom Ahern was. I coached teams against Ahern in his younger days and he was playing outside backs and it was only when he was 15/16 that he grew about 7/8 inches in 6/7 months that he started playing up front. Ahern also wasnt in the strongest of club set ups either until he was 17 years old when he moved into Waterpark and was in the Munster clubs set up.

[hugonaut]

Interesting team. No Knox. Is it because you think he's too inexperienced? Also why Ahern over Thornbury? Poor Lowry can't even make the Wolfhounds.

Lowry is a munchkin. Put him in a test match and watch teams rain bombs on a 170cm fullback against 190cm+ outside backs.

I don't think much about Knox at all, he never plays.
> Tom O'Toole [b. Sep 1998] - 68 [25+43] games /2594mins for Ulster
> Keynan Knox [b. Apr 1999] - 18 [5+13] games/562 mins for Munster

Ahern is an athletic marvel. He's absolutely wasted in Munster, he should be telling his agent to get him a move to somewhere where he actually might get a run.

EDIT: I'm serious about Ahern – he's so far behind where he should be and where Ireland need him to be. He was born in February '20 and Ryan Baird was born in July '99: Baird is only seven months older than him. Baird has played 40 pro games [including 6 test matches] and over 1820 mins of pro rugby while Ahern has played in 9 pro games and 320 mins.

Ahern only really started playing second row late on in age grade rugby. Baird may be only 7 months older but was playing second row and lot of rugby years before Tom Ahern was. I coached teams against Ahern in his younger days and he was playing outside backs and it was only when he was 15/16 that he grew about 7/8 inches in 6/7 months that he started playing up front. Ahern also wasnt in the strongest of club set ups either until he was 17 years old when he moved into Waterpark and was in the Munster clubs set up.

Ahern was as good as Baird was for the Irish U20s though [in their respective years] – as good, if not better. And he was better and further on than Niall Murray at the same age. Murray [at the time of writing] has played over 1000mins of first class rugby [not including B&I Cup/Celtic Cup]: https://www.itsrugby.co.uk/players/nial ... 41946.html

I appreciate that you have first hand information, but from my perspective [and it is complementary] if Ahern was behind at 17 years old he had certainly caught up by 20 years old.

He has also spent three years in a professional academy [entering the Munster Academy in 2018-19: https://www.munsterrugby.ie/2018/07/05/ ... confirmed/ ], and to be frank has phenomenal physical abilities to work with – like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWlVW0aDVKs&t=16s , and this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6h6q8KYYKU . Physically whatever catching up there was to do should all be done. If it's not, Munster's Academy doesn't work.

He doesn't pick the team, so he can't pick himself. Like any player, gametime is a pretty significant part of improvement. I just don't understand how van Graan could have a guy like that and not be excited about seeing how good he can be, and making him as good as he can be. But the pattern has been really clear with van Graan ... really slow to progress young players and a very conservative selector.

[ronk]

Ahern has been lucky to get the gametime he has. Jenkins and Snyman have been injured for almost all of the season.

Leinster only waited 2 years to sack MOC and we didn't have a replacement when we did.

How can anyone still think that Munsters best chance to win a HC doesn't involve getting the best out of the very good young talent available.

[TMC]

Hmm, MOD still stands out in the picture on my wall of the 09 GS team where there he is in the celebrations instead of big Mal without playing a minute IIRC.
Lost a lot of respect for Kidney when that story came out in the wash. MOD was a good club player but internationally benefited hugely from DK's Munster bias IMO, both MOK & Leo were better players

[dropkick]

Ahern has been lucky to get the gametime he has. Jenkins and Snyman have been injured for almost all of the season.

Leinster only waited 2 years to sack MOC and we didn't have a replacement when we did.

How can anyone still think that Munsters best chance to win a HC doesn't involve getting the best out of the very good young talent available.

With my green hat on, what I don't get is Munster are not great at bringing players through, are not getting the best of of the current crop, play an ultra conservative style that doesn't fit with the way Ireland are playing now yet with all that Nucifora and the IRFU were happy to offer JVG an extra 2 years.


I cant see any benefit to Ireland.

[ronk]

Far be it from me to defend Nucifora.

The answer comes down to a combination of the political leverage Munster have within the IRFU, the trouble they are willing to cause when they don't get their way, sunk costs and (I think importantly) the financial exposure of the IRFU to poor performance by Munster.

JvG paid lip service to development at times, but it was received well enough in most quarters that they never came under huge pressure.

Also, the value add that Nucifora claims is the work done signing players and moving them between provinces. Leinster don't do a lot of either and don't need him for what little they do. Ulster can go make signings like Vermuelan but it doesn't capture the imagination (of some) the way a big name in Munster does.

[hugonaut]

This has been playing on my mind way more than it should over Christmas. It’s been niggling at me since I heard O’Driscoll in commentary implying something very similar. They were praising Lowry for doing something very well. O’Driscoll was along the lines of he’s very good and done very well for Ulster and he’s a bit like Chelsin Kolbe. But, basically he’s too small for international rugby, international rugby is different, and he’s not Chelsin Kolbe.

Very interesting and persuasive post.

I reckon I have some prejudices/preferences about fullbacks that are probably quite old-fashioned and based on players I saw in the flesh [or even met] when I was much younger - Roger Gould, Gavin Hastings, Matt Burke, Andre Joubert, John Gallagher [great highlight reel here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0a16p87y7gg ], Chris Latham.

For the most part they were all taller guys [Roger Gould is f*cking huge] who were long striding and covered the ground really easily. Matt Burke is probably the oddity because while he's a six footer he was also built like a brick sh*thouse. He was just so well-rounded though – literally didn't have a flaw in his game. He did everything brilliantly.

Gallagher and Joubert were sublime runners – just amazing to watch in space. Watching those guys hit the channel between 13 and 14 in sixth and just motor was one of the joys of rugby in the late 80s and early 90s. Joubert had one of the most well-rounded kicking games of his era too. He could put the ball anywhere.

Latho looked like a lad you'd meet on a building site but he was an absolute artist – he picked brilliant lines [really long highlight reel here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHB-R7UNBR8 ] and scored a shedload of tries at test level: 40 in 78 tests. He had so much AFL in him: amazing in the air with a phenomenal punt. Roger Gould could absolutely leather the ball too. He wasn't as fluid a runner as Latho, but at full speed he was galloping and covering a huge amount of ground.

The older guys had great fundamental kicking and catching games, because holy sh*t there used to be so much kicking in the game. Hastings had [in my memory] the original 'siege gun boot' as coined by Bill McLaren. He was also an absolute unit ... still is.

There are a couple of other things which are sort of basic but I think important. Those tall guys at the back who could run, kick and jump had a commanding presence. They were lads who had always been big, always been fast, always been footballers and always been fullbacks growing up – these multi-skilled, athletic big guys who were very confident and took responsibility in due course. They gave tremendous confidence to their team-mates. Born to command! Rob Kearney had that too. The height thing is a big part of that – you probably know the old stat about the percentage of Fortune 500 CEOs who are 6'+.

It's probably the main reason I go on about Conor Nash so much – pretty much the ideal set of characteristics for a fullback [in my opinion]. I only saw the guy play twice but the guy looked like a different species. Navan's answer to Izzy Folau!

[ronk]

I’m a fan of big fullbacks, especially the aerial masters and I think there’s a lot to be said for them.

But I accepted that Carbery was big enough to play fullback and others have prospered at that level too. It’s hard to hide at outhalf with players right in your face with and without the ball. A lot of kicks now are uncontested or are targeting wingers.

Good fullbacks are scarce, there isn’t a lot of scope to be picky. If Lowry can hold up for Ulster then he might do the same for Ireland. It’ll be just as hard for him to get lots of caps at 10. He might drop off at international level, but you can’t be sure without playing him.

[sunshiner1]

by TMC

Hmm, MOD still stands out in the picture on my wall of the 09 GS team where there he is in the celebrations instead of big Mal without playing a minute IIRC.
Lost a lot of respect for Kidney when that story came out in the wash. MOD was a good club player but internationally benefited hugely from DK's Munster bias IMO, both MOK & Leo were better players

What does this mean? What story?

by ronk »

Good fullbacks are scarce, there isn’t a lot of scope to be picky. If Lowry can hold up for Ulster then he might do the same for Ireland. It’ll be just as hard for him to get lots of caps at 10. He might drop off at international level, but you can’t be sure without playing him.

That's why if and when the Wolfhounds come back Lowry should be brought in. Give him a look, see what he's like in training and then make an informed decision.

[TMC]

by TMC

Hmm, MOD still stands out in the picture on my wall of the 09 GS team where there he is in the celebrations instead of big Mal without playing a minute IIRC.
Lost a lot of respect for Kidney when that story came out in the wash. MOD was a good club player but internationally benefited hugely from DK's Munster bias IMO, both MOK & Leo were better players

What does this mean? What story?

MOK was never the most punctual man, he was so laid back and relaxed he was almost horizontal. DK dropped MOK from the Irish squad halfway through the GS year for being a couple of minutes late for a team meeting. Far better player than MOD – IMO both the Leinster second rows were much better players than MOD - don’t think it was the right punishment and for all the guff about DK’s brilliant man management and ability to understand what made players tick this was a case of p%ss poor man management. It resulted in a weaker player being selected & not used. Always had a whiff of Pres Cork looking after one another.

[Fan with smartphone]

This has been playing on my mind way more than it should over Christmas. It’s been niggling at me since I heard O’Driscoll in commentary implying something very similar. They were praising Lowry for doing something very well. O’Driscoll was along the lines of he’s very good and done very well for Ulster and he’s a bit like Chelsin Kolbe. But, basically he’s too small for international rugby, international rugby is different, and he’s not Chelsin Kolbe.

Very interesting and persuasive post.

I reckon I have some prejudices/preferences about fullbacks that are probably quite old-fashioned and based on players I saw in the flesh [or even met] when I was much younger - Roger Gould, Gavin Hastings, Matt Burke, Andre Joubert, John Gallagher [great highlight reel here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0a16p87y7gg ], Chris Latham.

For the most part they were all taller guys [Roger Gould is f*cking huge] who were long striding and covered the ground really easily. Matt Burke is probably the oddity because while he's a six footer he was also built like a brick sh*thouse. He was just so well-rounded though – literally didn't have a flaw in his game. He did everything brilliantly.

Gallagher and Joubert were sublime runners – just amazing to watch in space. Watching those guys hit the channel between 13 and 14 in sixth and just motor was one of the joys of rugby in the late 80s and early 90s. Joubert had one of the most well-rounded kicking games of his era too. He could put the ball anywhere.

Latho looked like a lad you'd meet on a building site but he was an absolute artist – he picked brilliant lines [really long highlight reel here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHB-R7UNBR8 ] and scored a shedload of tries at test level: 40 in 78 tests. He had so much AFL in him: amazing in the air with a phenomenal punt. Roger Gould could absolutely leather the ball too. He wasn't as fluid a runner as Latho, but at full speed he was galloping and covering a huge amount of ground.

The older guys had great fundamental kicking and catching games, because holy sh*t there used to be so much kicking in the game. Hastings had [in my memory] the original 'siege gun boot' as coined by Bill McLaren. He was also an absolute unit ... still is.

There are a couple of other things which are sort of basic but I think important. Those tall guys at the back who could run, kick and jump had a commanding presence. They were lads who had always been big, always been fast, always been footballers and always been fullbacks growing up – these multi-skilled, athletic big guys who were very confident and took responsibility in due course. They gave tremendous confidence to their team-mates. Born to command! Rob Kearney had that too. The height thing is a big part of that – you probably know the old stat about the percentage of Fortune 500 CEOs who are 6'+.

It's probably the main reason I go on about Conor Nash so much – pretty much the ideal set of characteristics for a fullback [in my opinion]. I only saw the guy play twice but the guy looked like a different species. Navan's answer to Izzy Folau!

Thanks for that, so much great stuff in there. I didn’t know about the CEO thing, though I wouldn’t put too much stock in that particular bit if I’m honest!

I think any mention of Andre Joubert should include this tribute : https://dementedmole.com/2012/05/06/dm- ... #more-2603. Very modest not to do that yourself! I’ll also include this footage which I’m sure you’ll have since seen, but worth adding in here!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=i-Bl0vjAJ6E

Part of me feeling strongly about Lowry is strangely how highly I rate Keenan. I initially thought he had a great skillset but would struggle Internationally. I now have swung completely the other way and just think what a player. He has been a really influential piece in how Ireland are choosing to play. Lowry has a fair bit of that similar skillset so it’s potentially valuable and worth taking the punt to me. If it works out it allows them to commit to the way they are playing without it hitting real trouble on one injury.

If it doesn’t work out, well I still reckon he’s earned the shot at it and at least we’ll know.

[Oldschoolsocks]

by TMC

Hmm, MOD still stands out in the picture on my wall of the 09 GS team where there he is in the celebrations instead of big Mal without playing a minute IIRC.
Lost a lot of respect for Kidney when that story came out in the wash. MOD was a good club player but internationally benefited hugely from DK's Munster bias IMO, both MOK & Leo were better players

What does this mean? What story?

MOK was never the most punctual man, he was so laid back and relaxed he was almost horizontal. DK dropped MOK from the Irish squad halfway through the GS year for being a couple of minutes late for a team meeting. Far better player than MOD – IMO both the Leinster second rows were much better players than MOD - don’t think it was the right punishment and for all the guff about DK’s brilliant man management and ability to understand what made players tick this was a case of p%ss poor man management. It resulted in a weaker player being selected & not used. Always had a whiff of Pres Cork looking after one another.

pretty much it, Kidney didn't take kindly to Mal's answer to being challenged on being late, dropped Mal and picked a decent Heineken Cup player to sit on the bench.

Pure stench off that one

[Dave Cahill]

Getting dropped for being late is a pretty standard punishment in professional sport - and lets face it, Mal and punctuality weren't always bosum buddies.

Cheika dropped Shaggy once for missing a team meeting. Now, the reason he was late was because his flight was delayed coming back from the Six Nations launch in London where he was representing Ireland with Eddie O'Sullivan and Philip Browne! "You know the rules mate".

[Oldschoolsocks]

Getting dropped for being late is a pretty standard punishment in professional sport - and lets face it, Mal and punctuality weren't always bosum buddies.

Cheika dropped Shaggy once for missing a team meeting. Now, the reason he was late was because his flight was delayed coming back from the Six Nations launch in London where he was representing Ireland with Eddie O'Sullivan and Philip Browne! "You know the rules mate".

3 minutes late wasn't the reason for dropping Mal, it was chancer Kidney's excuse for dropping him. Typical f%~kin teacher

[ronk]

I think it was Leo’s book that said: if you see Malcolm O’Kelly ahead of you at the airport, you’ve missed your flight.

It wasn’t disrespect, it’s just how the man was.

What was the use in making a point like that to a guy who was so late in his career. Kidney was too afraid to play MOD. If it had been a different coach it might have been seen differently. But Kidney had history and it always felt like pretext.