6 Nations 2021

[CiaranIrl]

Hi guys, I am not in Twitter, so definitely working off of second hand info here.

I am hearing that both POM and Burns are receiving a considerable amount of abuse from supposedly Irish fans.

This is completely out of order.
Yes these are professional sports people, but they are also people with mothers, fathers, sister, brothers, wives and children, who can all see these needless negative comments.

No player to to that field yesterday with a view of making a mistake. And any mistake that they did make has no real impact on any fans life other than being having to witness your team losing.

No player should be above scrutiny, but there is no need for a witch hunt or for personal attacks.

People should remember the unfortunate Garda who recently took his life after a series of online abuse.

If you are a fan, then you are a fan when a team wins and loses.

This is in no way directed at Leinster fans, but i do think it something that all fans should be aware of, and if all fans self police the idiots, then perhaps we can remove this from our sport.

I fully expect the odd idiot on here to turn this into a Munster bashing opportunity, but that shouldn’t take away from the intent.

Twitter is a holding cell for the unceasingly outraged. The equivalent of cognitive fly-tipping. The vitriolic abuse people get there is absurd. I really hope that O'Mahony & Burns are sensible enough to know that it's meaningless drivel from people who just want attention.

WRT this being Munster vs Leinster shite, I assume you are well aware that that's only ever from a tiny number of people.

[OTT]

I read a good one somewhere (you can all guess where) that the POM red card was actually Sexton’s fault because Sexton didn’t do the clearout to a specific standard that POM would have been expecting thus ensuring POM’s pre planned clearout made contact with Francis where POM would not have expected Francis to be.

[riocard911]

Yeah, Sexton should have absolutely laid into his teammate live on worldwide television, should have ruthlessly excoriated him in front of 30 million people for missing that kick and called for him to be sent back to England tout suite. That would have been the reaction of a captain, would have built team spirit and helped Burns get over his mistake.

IMO that is an unfair parody of what I wrote. To impute anti-English prejudice to my criticism of Burns is also below the belt and unjustified. I have always supported all and any players, who have pulled on the green jersey. One can check my posts for proof of this. Of course it's highly laudable that Sexton as captain put in a word for his team mate in his hour of need. I'm sure the poor fella was distraught. He has my fullest sympathies. Johnny defending Billy with reference to his own two missed kicks does not make a bad situation better was the point I was trying to make, however unsatisfactorily.

My bugbear however remains - as a fanatical supporter of the Irish rugby team for close on 50 years - the ongoing failure of the IRFU to manage the replacement of their star players. Kieran Reid would today walk into any Test 15 at 8. NZ however have moved on and are preparing, rightly, for the future without him, which is why he's now plying his trade in Japan. No amateur dramatics. No big deal. That's how the world works in a country which aspires to be number one at rugby. We have aspirations to the same - but in actuality they are mere pretensions, as one can see with the latest suggestion, that Sexton could get a two year national contract to take him up to the RWC2023. The end of Johnny's match vs Wales was unedifying for all concerned. I felt sorry for him lying there concussed (again). He can't play a full 80 minutes anymore. It's obvious. For how much longer is his decline going to be played out on the world stage? There's a reason BO'D is screaming for Harry Byrne to be fast tracked; ditto RO'G publicly calling for Johnny to primarily be used in the national team as a "finisher" and a mentor to the young 'uns. That is the bullet Lansdowne Road, Faz mór and Leo have to bite, IMO. Whether they do or not is another matter.

[Dave Cahill]

To impute anti-English prejudice to my criticism of Burns is also below the belt and unjustified. I have always supported all and any players, who have pulled on the green jersey. One can check my posts for proof of this.

Apologies, I didn't mean to imply this. I am in no doubt whatsoever that you have no anti-English prejudice or bias against those who qualify through parentage/residence.

Again, my apologies.

[riocard911]

To impute anti-English prejudice to my criticism of Burns is also below the belt and unjustified. I have always supported all and any players, who have pulled on the green jersey. One can check my posts for proof of this.

Apologies, I didn't mean to imply this. I am in no doubt whatsoever that you have no anti-English prejudice or bias against those who qualify through parentage/residence.

Again, my apologies.

Fully accepted, Dave. No worries.

p.s. At least one person - mise - got your clever Chuck Colson reference the BTTV podcast before last! An-mhaith!!!!

[cormac]

He'll get a few weeks ban. He certainly won't be available for the France game and the Italy game is probably doubtful too as he'll struggle a bit to get the ban reduced from the original entry tariff as he's already been sent off for similar this season.

Technically he wasn't sent off for similar, he was yellow carded for similar this season, but it was his second yellow card in the game

Both yellow cards that day were for something relatively similar, weren't they.

[Oldschool]

From Lock9541:

"(...) We will never be a serious team if we don’t get past a quarter final in the World Cup and we’d actually do better in the Six Nations if we replaced all those old guys in their mid thirties with younger exciting talent. You literally think just because they’re young and inexperienced means their incapable of being better than the older guys."

I agree with this 100%. I remember back in the day Mike Gibson being sent out to play for Ireland way past his sell-by-date and it was shameful. To think more than 40 years later the IRFU still have not learnt how to blood new players and move older guys on is mind-boggling to say the least. Apparently they did the same thing with Tony O'Reilly, but that was before my time.

Ireland were due to play England in Twickenham.
One of our wingers went down the night before the match.
The IRFU contacted O'Reilly and asked him to fill in.
As O'Reilly describes it, his chauffeur drove him to the match and was in attendance.
During the course of the match O'Reilly was tackled and punched in the process.
An Irish voice from the sideline was heard to say and don't forget to give his chauffeur one as well.

Here's one for you Oldschool: I remember my Dad fadó telling me a story about how AJO'R in the tunnel after an international "got even" with a French player, who had carried out a cheap shot on him during the match. Any idea to what incident he was alluding?

Afraid not, sorry but it sounds like a good story.
Too fado for me.

[Oldschool]

Has one of our greatest advantages now become a rod for our back? Do we need to come up with alternative to the central contracts? POM shouldn't have been on the pitch today end of, when if it's a 50/50 coin toss between the centrally contracted player and the guy who is ripping up trees for his province and notching up MOTM awards week in week out, the nod always goes to the guy who has the central contract. It's time for a revision

Elephant in the corner isn't it and it's not even close to 50/50 in many cases.

[Lock9541]

Sexton and James Ryan are not playing this weekend. Caelan Doris still unavailable due to concussion

[backrower8]

Yeah, Sexton should have absolutely laid into his teammate live on worldwide television, should have ruthlessly excoriated him in front of 30 million people for missing that kick and called for him to be sent back to England tout suite. That would have been the reaction of a captain, would have built team spirit and helped Burns get over his mistake.

IMO that is an unfair parody of what I wrote. To impute anti-English prejudice to my criticism of Burns is also below the belt and unjustified. I have always supported all and any players, who have pulled on the green jersey. One can check my posts for proof of this. Of course it's highly laudable that Sexton as captain put in a word for his team mate in his hour of need. I'm sure the poor fella was distraught. He has my fullest sympathies. Johnny defending Billy with reference to his own two missed kicks does not make a bad situation better was the point I was trying to make, however unsatisfactorily.

My bugbear however remains - as a fanatical supporter of the Irish rugby team for close on 50 years - the ongoing failure of the IRFU to manage the replacement of their star players. Kieran Reid would today walk into any Test 15 at 8. NZ however have moved on and are preparing, rightly, for the future without him, which is why he's now plying his trade in Japan. No amateur dramatics. No big deal. That's how the world works in a country which aspires to be number one at rugby. We have aspirations to the same - but in actuality they are mere pretensions, as one can see with the latest suggestion, that Sexton could get a two year national contract to take him up to the RWC2023. The end of Johnny's match vs Wales was unedifying for all concerned. I felt sorry for him lying there concussed (again). He can't play a full 80 minutes anymore. It's obvious. For how much longer is his decline going to be played out on the world stage? There's a reason BO'D is screaming for Harry Byrne to be fast tracked; ditto RO'G publicly calling for Johnny to primarily be used in the national team as a "finisher" and a mentor to the young 'uns. That is the bullet Lansdowne Road, Faz mór and Leo have to bite, IMO. Whether they do or not is another matter.

[limecat]

Just for clarity, this thread relates to the 6 Nations, in which Ireland play. Neither Leinster nor Munster take part in this competition, but players from both provinces, as well as Ulster and Connacht together represent Ireland.

Keep inter-provincial sniping and attacks out of it.

[Oldschool]

Yeah, Sexton should have absolutely laid into his teammate live on worldwide television, should have ruthlessly excoriated him in front of 30 million people for missing that kick and called for him to be sent back to England tout suite. That would have been the reaction of a captain, would have built team spirit and helped Burns get over his mistake.

IMO that is an unfair parody of what I wrote. To impute anti-English prejudice to my criticism of Burns is also below the belt and unjustified. I have always supported all and any players, who have pulled on the green jersey. One can check my posts for proof of this. Of course it's highly laudable that Sexton as captain put in a word for his team mate in his hour of need. I'm sure the poor fella was distraught. He has my fullest sympathies. Johnny defending Billy with reference to his own two missed kicks does not make a bad situation better was the point I was trying to make, however unsatisfactorily.

My bugbear however remains - as a fanatical supporter of the Irish rugby team for close on 50 years - the ongoing failure of the IRFU to manage the replacement of their star players. Kieran Reid would today walk into any Test 15 at 8. NZ however have moved on and are preparing, rightly, for the future without him, which is why he's now plying his trade in Japan. No amateur dramatics. No big deal. That's how the world works in a country which aspires to be number one at rugby. We have aspirations to the same - but in actuality they are mere pretensions, as one can see with the latest suggestion, that Sexton could get a two year national contract to take him up to the RWC2023. The end of Johnny's match vs Wales was unedifying for all concerned. I felt sorry for him lying there concussed (again). He can't play a full 80 minutes anymore. It's obvious. For how much longer is his decline going to be played out on the world stage? There's a reason BO'D is screaming for Harry Byrne to be fast tracked; ditto RO'G publicly calling for Johnny to primarily be used in the national team as a "finisher" and a mentor to the young 'uns. That is the bullet Lansdowne Road, Faz mór and Leo have to bite, IMO. Whether they do or not is another matter.

From "My bugbear..." on 100% agree.
Before that it's "simply" the case that Dave still hasn't sorted his marbles out yet.

[Oldschoolsocks]

I read a good one somewhere (you can all guess where) that the POM red card was actually Sexton’s fault because Sexton didn’t do the clearout to a specific standard that POM would have been expecting thus ensuring POM’s pre planned clearout made contact with Francis where POM would not have expected Francis to be.

Yeah, that was gas...

[Oldschoolsocks]

Oooooops, sry Limecat

[Fireworks]

From Laighin Break:

"Sexton: quite a few errors, which happens, but he look like a petulant child each time trying to find someone else to blame for his mistakes. And then when he had to go off, we had to watch about 2 minutes of him shaking his head, sulking and giving out. I can't see how his attitude wouldn't have a negative affect on the atmosphere in camp."

I agree. I see now in post-match interviews Sexton covering for Burns, essentially saying missing kicks to touch or kicking the ball dead are somehow acceptable mistakes, as he made two of them in the Wales game. IMO they're not, they're dropping offences.

Sexton's "attitude" is a problem, which is only going to get worse. It clearly manifested itself the day of the Munster-Leinster match in Thomond, when Wycherley put him on his ass, it continued the following Six Nations and at RWC2019. Why does nearly every press conference have to turn into a bad-mooded exchange with the journalists, who supposedly are all out to get him? Look back at the one after his kicking practice the day before our disastrous NZ match in Japan and you'll see, what I mean.

Essentially what we're seeing with Sexton's decline is a re-run of the same effing fiasco, when RO'G didn't want to depart the stage and Kidney hadn't the guts to pull him, which cost us the RWC2011 quarter-final vs Wales. Remember RO'G's cringe-worthy "tearful" interview after our victory vs Oz in the same tournament? These guys are prima donnas; They are exceptional athletes, who can pull off miracles, when at the height of their powers. I can understand their desire to continue their international careers for as long as possible. It's the responsibility of the coaches, however, to call time, when it is time. Johnny's time is up, IMO. He's yesterday's man, and he refuses to acknowledge it. He nearly had a row the other day on OTB when Ger whateverhisnameis tried to suggest to him that his role might involve mentoring his possible replacements.

At this stage Ireland need to move on an give valuable international game time to our up and coming younger outhalves such as Healy, the Byrnes, Frawley etc., while hoping Carbery gets back to full fitness. Rant over.

Sexton has got a lot of bashing and I would agree that he is not at his peak but I still think he is significantly better than the alternatives. I understand the argument of giving game time to the next generation and agree to a point but I also think they need to show they deserve it. The ROG example is not the same as Sexton had proved his ability already and it was Kidneys choice.

There aren't enough games to give worthwhile experience to all of the pretenders so it may need to be a gradual process. It is a pity the process was not started before. I would like to see Sexton find some form and stay around long enough for there to be a smooth transition. Give more and more time to others and start them it smaller games until there is a clear successor. I think we then need to learn and continue the process to avoid this situation repeating itself.

[hugonaut]

I understand the argument of giving game time to the next generation and agree to a point but I also think they need to show they deserve it.

Since return to play in Oct 2020:

1. 24 Oct 2020 | vs Italy | 50-17 win
No10 Sexton 70 mins
No22 Byrne 10 mins

2. 31 Oct 2020 | @ France | 35-17 loss
No10 Sexton 68 mins
No22 Byrne 12 mins

3. 13 Nov 2020 | vs Wal | 32-9 win
No10 Sexton 28 mins
No22 Burns 36 mins

4. 20 Nov 2020 | @ Eng | 18-7 loss
No10 Byrne 68 mins
No22 Burns 12 mins

5. 29 Nov 2020 | vs Geo | 23-10 win
No10 Burns 45 mins
No22 Byrne 35 mins

6. 05 Dec 2020 | vs Scot | 31-16 win
No10 Sexton 63 mins
No22 Byrne 17 mins

7. 08 Feb 2021 | @ Wales | 21-16 loss
No10 Sexton 69 mins
No22 Burns 11 mins

Sexton: 298 mins [5+0]
Byrne: 142 mins [1+4]
Burns: 104 mins [1+3]

There's certainly an argument to say that the guys down the depth chart are getting opportunities and games, but they're not doing enough with them.

[Oldschool]

I understand the argument of giving game time to the next generation and agree to a point but I also think they need to show they deserve it.

Since return to play in Oct 2020:

1. 24 Oct 2020 | vs Italy | 50-17 win
No10 Sexton 70 mins
No22 Byrne 10 mins

2. 31 Oct 2020 | @ France | 35-17 loss
No10 Sexton 68 mins
No22 Byrne 12 mins

3. 13 Nov 2020 | vs Wal | 32-9 win
No10 Sexton 28 mins
No22 Burns 36 mins

4. 20 Nov 2020 | @ Eng | 18-7 loss
No10 Byrne 68 mins
No22 Burns 12 mins

5. 29 Nov 2020 | vs Geo | 23-10 win
No10 Burns 45 mins
No22 Byrne 35 mins

6. 05 Dec 2020 | vs Scot | 31-16 win
No10 Sexton 63 mins
No22 Byrne 17 mins

7. 08 Feb 2021 | @ Wales | 21-16 loss
No10 Sexton 69 mins
No22 Burns 11 mins

Sexton: 298 mins [5+0]
Byrne: 142 mins [1+4]
Burns: 104 mins [1+3]

There's certainly an argument to say that the guys down the depth chart are getting opportunities and games, but they're not doing enough with them.

Based on your own stats, no there isn't an argument to say that the guys down the depth chart are getting opportunities and games.
Quite the opposite in fact, for once even the stats aren't lying.

[Fan with smartphone]

Aiming for positivity... the last grand slam started with a fairly poor display in the first game v France. It was saved by Sexton’s drop goal that day and in general that final possession. So had things went slightly differently at the end of this - we could be papering over the cracks and ploughing on. It didn’t and i do think this game is now a fork in the road.

Was impressed with Connors and the way he genuinely consoled a genuinely inconsolable Burns. Have never seen a player has haunted as Burns there. We shouldn’t select him if he’s not in a position to be the best player for the job for the next games but any player in that position does need a bit of support if we are to get the best out of players. So fair play Will Connors.

Josh Van Der Flier was quietly phenomenal. I think that display has to set a standard for him. He and Stander did get through the work of 3. Tadhg Beirne was incredible. Over the ball (the penalty against him was a head scratcher), jumping in the lineout, trying to make his cover tackles, carrying, restarts, handling. And he did it despite looking like carrying an injury from early on. He did not deserve to lose.

Porter is a rock. Furlong looks close to the level we want. Such is James Ryan’s mana, that had he stayed on, it may have been a different result. Henderson - in playing so well - gave the glimpse of why people get frustrated with him. Again, this needs to set a standard of involvement for him, not to let games pass by. It won’t be this weekend, but getting Ryan, Henderson and Beirne on the pitch at the same time looks like something I want to see.

Robbie Henshaw was at everything. This won’t be popular, but my suspicion is that our best partnership is Aki-Henshaw, with Ringrose On the bench, but Ringrose is probably at this stage our best back and playmaker. However, with Keenan at 15, that’s not necessarily essential as he looks like a great second playmaker from there. I thought we needed a player with keenan’s skillset, but that it probably wouldn’t be him. Turns out we just need him. So maybe Ringrose to be making decisions for the last 15 minutes rather than the first 15 is the way to go.

Unfortunately I do think the game is up for a few players. Straight away there are easy selections at 14 and 6 of players who deserve their chance now. We’ve painted ourselves into a total corner at 10. I personally would like to have seen Frawley there, but that doesn’t look like the path they are going with him. There is no perfect selection there right now, parachuting in after not being in camp - we are setting a lad up to fail - but we do have to start finding the one. McGrath and Marmion will also be thinking their time could/should be now.

In most years we have improved markedly as the tournament goes on, so that’s the challenge now.

[CiaranIrl]

Aiming for positivity... the last grand slam started with a fairly poor display in the first game v France. It was saved by Sexton’s drop goal that day and in general that final possession. So had things went slightly differently at the end of this - we could be papering over the cracks and ploughing on. It didn’t and i do think this game is now a fork in the road.

Was impressed with Connors and the way he genuinely consoled a genuinely inconsolable Burns. Have never seen a player has haunted as Burns there. We shouldn’t select him if he’s not in a position to be the best player for the job for the next games but any player in that position does need a bit of support if we are to get the best out of players. So fair play Will Connors.

Josh Van Der Flier was quietly phenomenal. I think that display has to set a standard for him. He and Stander did get through the work of 3. Tadhg Beirne was incredible. Over the ball (the penalty against him was a head scratcher), jumping in the lineout, trying to make his cover tackles, carrying, restarts, handling. And he did it despite looking like carrying an injury from early on. He did not deserve to lose.

Porter is a rock. Furlong looks close to the level we want. Such is James Ryan’s mana, that had he stayed on, it may have been a different result. Henderson - in playing so well - gave the glimpse of why people get frustrated with him. Again, this needs to set a standard of involvement for him, not to let games pass by. It won’t be this weekend, but getting Ryan, Henderson and Beirne on the pitch at the same time looks like something I want to see.

Robbie Henshaw was at everything. This won’t be popular, but my suspicion is that our best partnership is Aki-Henshaw, with Ringrose On the bench, but Ringrose is probably at this stage our best back and playmaker. However, with Keenan at 15, that’s not necessarily essential as he looks like a great second playmaker from there. I thought we needed a player with keenan’s skillset, but that it probably wouldn’t be him. Turns out we just need him. So maybe Ringrose to be making decisions for the last 15 minutes rather than the first 15 is the way to go.

Unfortunately I do think the game is up for a few players. Straight away there are easy selections at 14 and 6 of players who deserve their chance now. We’ve painted ourselves into a total corner at 10. I personally would like to have seen Frawley there, but that doesn’t look like the path they are going with him. There is no perfect selection there right now, parachuting in after not being in camp - we are setting a lad up to fail - but we do have to start finding the one. McGrath and Marmion will also be thinking their time could/should be now.

In most years we have improved markedly as the tournament goes on, so that’s the challenge now.

Great post, but no way Aki is ahead of Ringrose. Aki's form has been dire for Connacht and he was piss poor in our Autumn series. If he was playing with his 2018 form, there would be a discussion, but I wouldn't even have him as third choice right now personally.

On Henderson: He played really well overall, but it is worth mentioning the Wales try where he made three major errors. Dropped ball. Didn't make it safe so Wales could play on. Then didn't get back into the defensive line. He totally switched off. He needs to get rid of that habit he has of losing focus.

[Jcahill1]

Aiming for positivity... the last grand slam started with a fairly poor display in the first game v France. It was saved by Sexton’s drop goal that day and in general that final possession. So had things went slightly differently at the end of this - we could be papering over the cracks and ploughing on. It didn’t and i do think this game is now a fork in the road.

Was impressed with Connors and the way he genuinely consoled a genuinely inconsolable Burns. Have never seen a player has haunted as Burns there. We shouldn’t select him if he’s not in a position to be the best player for the job for the next games but any player in that position does need a bit of support if we are to get the best out of players. So fair play Will Connors.

Josh Van Der Flier was quietly phenomenal. I think that display has to set a standard for him. He and Stander did get through the work of 3. Tadhg Beirne was incredible. Over the ball (the penalty against him was a head scratcher), jumping in the lineout, trying to make his cover tackles, carrying, restarts, handling. And he did it despite looking like carrying an injury from early on. He did not deserve to lose.

Porter is a rock. Furlong looks close to the level we want. Such is James Ryan’s mana, that had he stayed on, it may have been a different result. Henderson - in playing so well - gave the glimpse of why people get frustrated with him. Again, this needs to set a standard of involvement for him, not to let games pass by. It won’t be this weekend, but getting Ryan, Henderson and Beirne on the pitch at the same time looks like something I want to see.

Robbie Henshaw was at everything. This won’t be popular, but my suspicion is that our best partnership is Aki-Henshaw, with Ringrose On the bench, but Ringrose is probably at this stage our best back and playmaker. However, with Keenan at 15, that’s not necessarily essential as he looks like a great second playmaker from there. I thought we needed a player with keenan’s skillset, but that it probably wouldn’t be him. Turns out we just need him. So maybe Ringrose to be making decisions for the last 15 minutes rather than the first 15 is the way to go.

Unfortunately I do think the game is up for a few players. Straight away there are easy selections at 14 and 6 of players who deserve their chance now. We’ve painted ourselves into a total corner at 10. I personally would like to have seen Frawley there, but that doesn’t look like the path they are going with him. There is no perfect selection there right now, parachuting in after not being in camp - we are setting a lad up to fail - but we do have to start finding the one. McGrath and Marmion will also be thinking their time could/should be now.

In most years we have improved markedly as the tournament goes on, so that’s the challenge now.

Agree with a lot of this, except Ringrose. Best outside centre in Ireland by a long shot, and he and Henshaw looked class yesterday.