6 Nations 2021

[RoboProp]

Children! Behave!

That's what they'll say when we're together

[Jcahill1]

No doubt Ireland would have done better with 15 players on the field, but that is not the sole reason why Ireland lost this game.
Ireland made some really silly decisions and errors which also contributed to this loss.

Additionally, when you say your flanker, does this mean that you are not Irish, or do you only support Leinster players who wear the Irish jersey, because as far as I and most adult Irish fans are concerned, once a player puts in an Irish jersey you get behind them regardless of where the were born.

It is the root cause of the loss.

It's your player because you and your Munster favouring sycophants in the media have pushed him to be in the team underservedly whereas wiser heads wanted shot of him. More deserving players are in the wings, none are as stupid to get a red card for something they've previously been red carded for, so early in the game. He should be sent home in disgrace, and if he had any pride to go with his brainless passion he'll retire from international duty immediately.

On that note I will respectfully disengage with discussing this with you as I don’t believe that you are coming at this rationally.

If you believe that any player is in that Ireland squad, let alone one with so many caps, due to what is written in the press, then that is an interesting reflection of you.

Good for you mate, that abuse is ridiculous.

[FLIP]

No doubt Ireland would have done better with 15 players on the field, but that is not the sole reason why Ireland lost this game.
Ireland made some really silly decisions and errors which also contributed to this loss.

Additionally, when you say your flanker, does this mean that you are not Irish, or do you only support Leinster players who wear the Irish jersey, because as far as I and most adult Irish fans are concerned, once a player puts in an Irish jersey you get behind them regardless of where the were born.

It is the root cause of the loss.

It's your player because you and your Munster favouring sycophants in the media have pushed him to be in the team underservedly whereas wiser heads wanted shot of him. More deserving players are in the wings, none are as stupid to get a red card for something they've previously been red carded for, so early in the game. He should be sent home in disgrace, and if he had any pride to go with his brainless passion he'll retire from international duty immediately.

On that note I will respectfully disengage with discussing this with you as I don’t believe that you are coming at this rationally.

If you believe that any player is in that Ireland squad, let alone one with so many caps, due to what is written in the press, then that is an interesting reflection of you.

I'm coming at this perfectly rationally. You're trying to weasel out of a response because you don't have one that defends your beloved player.

As for media resulting in player picks? You would have to be obtuse to think that media and social pressure doesn't affect selection.

Good for you mate, that abuse is ridiculous.

What abuse?

[fourthirtythree]

Not a popular opinion here but I'm with Shaaggy in having sympathy for O'Mahony. He messed up (had he wanted to blast someone's head it probably wouldn't have been with his bicep) Wales had been getting involved in increasing levels of shithousery at the rucks preceding that and I'm sure he was sent out and told to lay down a marker early on.

He f%~ked up.

Assuming Doris and Ryan not back for next week is have Beirne to 6 with Henderson and A Tighthead Lock. Sub in the sub front row for the starters today, Hopefully one more week in camp will give them confidence in his throwing as I don't really think Herring is up to it.

Whoever is playing outhalf, guess Ross Byrne but honestly I don't think the drop down from Sexton is near as big as it was, could do with snappier service.

Don't know what to do with the wings, Lowe kicked well early on and looked okay going forward but the kind of "interesting" defensive reads he makes are al ays going to be shown up at international level. Earls hasn't been good for Munster since rugby returned, hard to turn it on now. Recall that match where Schmidt played Henshaw at FB it was Earls they targeted for the restarts every time to great profit.

Congrats to Beirne, he nearly got to be man of the match on the losing team again. It would not have been a crime had we snuck that one, particularly as our mail was going well and lineout was okay, albeit it would have been on the back of a criminally stupid kick by Wales with seconds on the clock.

[ronk]

Young players have come into the squad where available, mostly. Or they will soon.

It’s really only at halfback that there’s a clamour for younger players, but that’s not unusual.

[neiliog93]

I have sympathy for O'Mahony, it wasn't malicious, just really stupid. You could see the disbelief/regret/embarrassment on his face when he was going off. The annoying thing is that Johnny Williams concussed himself with a high shot on Ringrose that didn't even get a penalty (it was at least a yellow card). We are a better team than Wales and with 15 men would definitely have won the game (and still deserved to win it with 14).

Two of the remaining old guard (O'Mahony, Earls) were very poor, while Murray and Sexton were reasonably good, and Stander had a very good game. Beirne was solid, the line out was better (if still imperfect), Porter stepped up, Kelleher, Kilcoyne and van der Flier were impressive off the bench, and Henshaw had one of his best games in green in a long time. There are positives to take forward but obviously the Championship is now gone. If we beat France and England at home and bring through several new players, we'll be doing very well.

[blaker]

We lost that game solely because of OMahoney. We failed to pull off a miracle win because of the assorted errors, Barnes decisions etc but - looking at the game from 15 mins on - it’s clear that if we’d stayed with 15 players we’d have won handily.

It’s almost impossible to judge or critique any individual error in the circumstances of that game. Fatigue, more effort to cover gaps, general “ah this is hopeless” will impact everybody. Add in losing 2 of your main lineout men incl your main tackler / carrier - well it’s a write off.

That said;
- POM knew full well what he was doing. There was no dip or sidestep or change of direction to mitigate. It was filthy and he deserves to be roasted. He did something similar earlier in the year v Llanelli - and it was filthy before any new emphasis on head hits.
- Earls was awful all game. 3 big mistakes (tentative minefield drop, air tackle, out on the full) get the headlines but he was utterly anonymous as well.

Burns was tragic but I have sympathy because he has no business being out there. He’s a handy club 10. He’s not an international. He made 4 very big errors - each of which can happen - but when you have no reputation / portfolio to fall back on then they stick out.

Ultimately dropping players comes down to a couple of factors. A “legend” playing badly but with a serious resume will get the benefit of the doubt - a 50-50 call won’t. A fella playing badly with nobody pushing them will not be dropped - if there’s somebody waiting in the wings then they’ll go.

So;
Earls - Larmour, Stockdale, Dave Kearney - he should be dropped.
POM - Citing will remove him. When he’s back - Dorris, Ruddock, Beirne, Henderson, Stander - he’s in trouble.
Healy - better today but probably hanging on by fingernails. Kilcoyne coming up - maybe a bench stint for CH.
Murray - way below his best but still better than the rest? There’s a lot of viable options in the wings but none seem to have AFs confidence. Safe for now but a burst of authoritative form from Casey Luke JGP or Marmion is needed.
Sexton - less clear cut because the guys coming behind have all got question marks. Farrell probably needs to bite the bullet and mandate that Healy and Byrne (which one) need to start over JJ and Johnny. And seriously consider letting Johnny get to 100 caps and then wave him off. He’s still the best we have but we can’t ignore reality and time.

We actually have a very exciting back line - Henshaw Keenan Lowe Larmour Ringrose Aki Stockdale.

[riocard911]

From Lock9541:

"(...) We will never be a serious team if we don’t get past a quarter final in the World Cup and we’d actually do better in the Six Nations if we replaced all those old guys in their mid thirties with younger exciting talent. You literally think just because they’re young and inexperienced means their incapable of being better than the older guys."

I agree with this 100%. I remember back in the day Mike Gibson being sent out to play for Ireland way past his sell-by-date and it was shameful. To think more than 40 years later the IRFU still have not learnt how to blood new players and move older guys on is mind-boggling to say the least. Apparently they did the same thing with Tony O'Reilly, but that was before my time.

Ireland were due to play England in Twickenham.
One of our wingers went down the night before the match.
The IRFU contacted O'Reilly and asked him to fill in.
As O'Reilly describes it, his chauffeur drove him to the match and was in attendance.
During the course of the match O'Reilly was tackled and punched in the process.
An Irish voice from the sideline was heard to say and don't forget to give his chauffeur one as well.

Here's one for you Oldschool: I remember my Dad fadó telling me a story about how AJO'R in the tunnel after an international "got even" with a French player, who had carried out a cheap shot on him during the match. Any idea to what incident he was alluding?

[CiaranIrl]

Assuming Doris and Ryan not back for next week is have Beirne to 6 with Henderson and A Tighthead Lock. Sub in the sub front row for the starters today, Hopefully one more week in camp will give them confidence in his throwing as I don't really think Herring is up to it.

I think Henderson, Beirne, Ruddock is better than Roux (or whoever) Henderson, Beirne personally. I'd agree with you if Ryan was fit - I like the idea of Beirne at 6 generally.

[Morf]

Children! Behave!

That's what they'll say when we're together

Lemme hear your heart beat lemme feel your heat beat

[Morf]

We lost that game solely because of OMahoney.

We were actively avoiding playing rugby til O'Mahony went off - I wouldn't be so sure.

[blaker]

We lost that game solely because of OMahoney.

We were actively avoiding playing rugby til O'Mahony went off - I wouldn't be so sure.

Think he even gave away 2 of the 4 penalties conceded before he was carded.

I hear what you’re saying but I can’t see how the respective levels of the teams for the last 65 mins would have been widely different if he’d stayed on beyond ours being better with a full compement

[Logorrhea]

Some real positives to take from the game.

I thought Healy, Porter, Henshaw, Keenan and Henderson were really good and the bench was really good. Beirne was absolutely fantastic. I've never seen him as an international second row, never thought he was big enough (still not sure against England or South Africa) but he was immense today. Best player on the field by a mile.

For me, we still have an issue at 9 and 10. We are so unbelievably predictable in attack (think of what England would have done to us) and from what I can see, we haven't developed a bit from last year. This was a poor Wales team and when we did produce good ball we still struggled to create anything.

POM made a mistake. it wasn't intentional, it did probably costs us the game but no point in harping. Players make mistakes. Cant go around crucifying them every time they do. Burns also mis-kicked. It happens.

[Morf]

We lost that game solely because of OMahoney.

We were actively avoiding playing rugby til O'Mahony went off - I wouldn't be so sure.

Think he even gave away 2 of the 4 penalties conceded before he was carded.

I hear what you’re saying but I can’t see how the respective levels of the teams for the last 65 mins would have been widely different if he’d stayed on beyond ours being better with a full compement

Who can say but I think going to 14 sent the conservative/percentage game plan out the window.
A different attitude/gameplan/shackles being on could've seen Ireland lose with 15 too.

I'm personally happy to see a backrow that doesn't contain POM for a few games. I can't close the deficit in my mind between how pundits describe his contribution to what I see but there you go. I hope others like Rhys can take the opportunity and do well.

[blaker]

Some real positives to take from the game.

I thought Healy, Porter, Henshaw, Keenan and Henderson were really good and the bench was really good. Beirne was absolutely fantastic. I've never seen him as an international second row, never thought he was big enough (still not sure against England or South Africa) but he was immense today. Best player on the field by a mile.

For me, we still have an issue at 9 and 10. We are so unbelievably predictable in attack (think of what England would have done to us) and from what I can see, we haven't developed a bit from last year. This was a poor Wales team and when we did produce good ball we still struggled to create anything.

POM made a mistake. it wasn't intentional, it did probably costs us the game but no point in harping. Players make mistakes. Cant go around crucifying them every time they do. Burns also mis-kicked. It happens.

I’ve seen many folks describe POM as making a mistake. I really really don’t think it was a mistake - I think he knew full what he waa doing. Burns made a mistake. The welsh lad who went high on Ringrose made a mistake. POM tucked his arm, lined that guy up and nailed him. I also don’t think it was a “heat of the moment - I meant it but wouldn’t do it again” type of mistake because he’s done it before this season!

[LeRouxIsPHat]

We lost that game solely because of OMahoney. We failed to pull off a miracle win because of the assorted errors, Barnes decisions etc but - looking at the game from 15 mins on - it’s clear that if we’d stayed with 15 players we’d have won handily.

It’s almost impossible to judge or critique any individual error in the circumstances of that game. Fatigue, more effort to cover gaps, general “ah this is hopeless” will impact everybody. Add in losing 2 of your main lineout men incl your main tackler / carrier - well it’s a write off.

That said;
- POM knew full well what he was doing. There was no dip or sidestep or change of direction to mitigate. It was filthy and he deserves to be roasted. He did something similar earlier in the year v Llanelli - and it was filthy before any new emphasis on head hits.

100% agree, came on to say the same thing and you pretty much took the words right out of my mouth. I'd have sympathy if his arm was out and his shoulder connected before it got a chance to wrap because of the height of the player and how they were moving etc but the way his he had his arm means he did mean to cause damage and as you said he's done it before. That said I think he's been really good for the last while so hate people jumping in to slag him off for being useless or hurling abuse (on twitter) at him. He f%~ked up and deserves to be punished (both in terms of a ban and selection) but we don't need to crucify him for it.

And I also agree about how we judge others as a result. I think we had three high tackles and none were acceptable/necessary but the lads were all desperate to cover the extra space and knew that each score would be catastrophic.

Massively frustrating not to win against a really poor Wales team but having written off the game after the red card I was really encouraged by what I saw after that.

Firstly, it looks like POC had a big impact. The lineout (even after Pom and JR both went off so early!) was much improved. I think we've simplified it since the autumn, less movement and more focus on just getting the lift right and the jumper to the highest point and in a strong position to dominate in the air. We also attacked their lineout well. It turns out that JR isreally good at it so hopefully we see it more and more. We were lucky he wasn't pinged for jumping across but I guess you try it once and see if you get away with it.

Secondly, our ball protection was much better, even with 14 men. We were making breaks/half breaks, using tip on passes to get a yard here and there, carrying into traffic, all the different ways you can attack with ball in hand and usually had someone there to clear out and do so very securely. We did see glimpses of it in the autumn but it was inconsistent. The fact that we could do it for most of the game today and with a man down gives me great encouragement that we can do it again against the more physically imposing teams.

Thirdly, loads of guys really stood up to be counted in a way that I don't think we've seen since 2018. Tadhg Beirne and Robbie were the picks of the bunch for me, phenomenal effort from both of them. Kelleher was great off the bench and probably should have been trusted to have more time, he's probably earned some trust for the next game though. Porter is a world class player now, no doubt about that for me. Henderson needed a big game and he had it. CJ was determination personified. Keenan runs every ball back like it's the last play and we need a try. I was downbeat about the quality of our squad before this game but it just shows how much you can improve with a decent platform.

One worry is that I'm not sure how much of that good play had to do with Mike Catt. This might be harsh and a bit of bias because I wasn't impressed last year but we played very differently with POM on the pitch and quite frankly our attack was piss poor until then. We were far too eager to kick and lost our shape when we did hold onto the ball. Murray kept getting sucked into rucks and we often lacked a first receiver or they were very far away from the ruck. In his defence it could well have been him who sorted things out but it's definitely a concern that you'd work on an attacking plan for so long and it would be so poor for the first 15 minutes of the tournament. Ten is an issue but hopefully we're getting to a place where we won't be so reliant on whoever is wearing that jersey. Being willing to counter attack, having more variety in attack, and going for opposition lineouts all mean that we're not just asking for the ten to pull a rabbit out of a hat all the time.

There were obviously loads of other errors but I think it'd be harsh to point them out and I'm trying to focus on the positives. Mistakes happen in every game and unfortunately we needed to be almost perfect once we went down to 14 men. We won't be back to 2018 levels any time soon but I'm more encouraged about us being on the right track.

Apologies if I missed someone saying it but the disappointment of losing and the frustration with POM etc means that the fact that we got a losing bonus point has largely gone under the radar. That's a great achievement in the circumstances.

[hugonaut]

We lost that game solely because of OMahoney. We failed to pull off a miracle win because of the assorted errors, Barnes decisions etc but - looking at the game from 15 mins on - it’s clear that if we’d stayed with 15 players we’d have won handily.

It’s almost impossible to judge or critique any individual error in the circumstances of that game. Fatigue, more effort to cover gaps, general “ah this is hopeless” will impact everybody. Add in losing 2 of your main lineout men incl your main tackler / carrier - well it’s a write off.

That said;
- POM knew full well what he was doing. There was no dip or sidestep or change of direction to mitigate. It was filthy and he deserves to be roasted. He did something similar earlier in the year v Llanelli - and it was filthy before any new emphasis on head hits.

100% agree, came on to say the same thing and you pretty much took the words right out of my mouth. I'd have sympathy if his arm was out and his shoulder connected before it got a chance to wrap because of the height of the player and how they were moving etc but the way his he had his arm means he did mean to cause damage and as you said he's done it before. That said I think he's been really good for the last while so hate people jumping in to slag him off for being useless or hurling abuse (on twitter) at him. He f%~ked up and deserves to be punished (both in terms of a ban and selection) but we don't need to crucify him for it.

Ditto, and well said. I thought it was intentional, he's done it a number of times before – he had a penalty reversed at the end of the first half against NZ in the QF and got sent off against the Scarlets for something similar earlier in the season. I think it's a whitewash pretending otherwise, but everybody is entitled to their opinion. On the other hand, I don't really see the point of going over the top on calling him names.

It was far from the worst or most violent clear-out I've seen this season, but it's a cheap-shot. Under the current way the game is reffed, there's a fairly significant chance that you will end up paying a massive tariff on an action that doesn't actually do you much good if it goes unseen. It was a stupid act and it had a massive negative affect on our chances of winning the game. From my point of view, that's where it ranks and it's bad enough. The abuse is unnecessary.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

I actually thought of you when I saw the replay of it, Hugo. For years you used to say that POM couldn't tackle on one shoulder and that's why he'd often get done at the side of the scrum. I've a dodgy shoulder myself so would often keep it tucked in and brace myself for contact with the shoulder/body moreso than opening up the joint and I wondered if he never got his shoulder sorted and that's why he always uses that technique. There could be other reasons of course, he could have just been laying down a marker and it can be tough to shift guys so low to the ground.

I hope I haven't invented that and/or that it wasn't the other shoulder

[Nomad_280]

If J10 fails the HIA protocols Ross Byrne has to start. Billy Burns can't blow a winning chance like that and not be punished for it - regardless of what that does to his confidence or not. PO'M should be dropped also, ditto Keith Earls. I thought Ireland played well all in all and looked well coached. Unforced errors cost us the match though: PO'M's shoulder charge; Earls taking the catcher out in the air; Murray blocking the oncoming runner and Burns' unforgivable kick dead.

p.s. the sooner Harry Byrne is brought into the national squad the better!!!

Would Farrell have a choice regarding POM? Surely a red like that will lead to some sort of suspension.

[Nomad_280]

No one cares about the Rugby World Cup in Irish Rugby. Players, coaches or the Union itself. Its a waste of time and money and detrimental to the overall game here as the money we lose from not being able to have a summer tour and autumn internationals is rarely matched by World Cup revenue

You still didn’t explain how bringing in young players like Harry Byrne into the squad will make us lose money...and I’m sure all the players will disagree with you they care about the World Cup and the coaches. Real fans care about the World Cup. This is why countries like New Zealand and all laugh at us because we can’t get past a quarter final. We don’t even do well in the six nations with the team we have at the moment so good luck seeing Ireland do well this tournament and in the future with the starting team we had today.

No, "real fans" - whatever they are, don't care about the world cup, the world cup is a sop to people who are more used to the way other sports are organised.

If you want to know how much we care about the world cup - heres how much. ireland have never won a knockout game at the world cup. ireland have disappointed at the last number of world cups - sometimes disasterously. How many coaches lost their jobs? Even after Lens, Gatland was retained. We don't even do our contracts on the world cup cycle.

The entire game in Ireland is dependant on the revenue generated by the national team. Every professional player, every province, every AIL club, every Metro and Provincial club from Senior to J-Whatever, every mini, is ultimately funded by the revenue the national team generates. The world cup generates no revenue, at best it doesn't cost us too much. Dropping finishing places in the 6 Nations costs us money in prize money, costs us money in sponsorship. Nothing will ever be done that puts that at risk, especially when there is bugger all money about. We're already living on tick as a result of the Pandemic. No other nation laughs at us because we can't get past a quarter, because they all know that we don't care. A third place finish in the Six Nations generates more revenue than Irish provinces winning every other competition with home knockout games

I don't see how this doesn't also apply to Wales or Scotland. I can buy the idea that the 6 nations is seen as equal to or greater than the world cup ito importance but I don't see why that makes our failures at world cups any less embarrassing.