Irish Depth Chart 2020-21

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Ruckedtobits
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Irish Depth Chart 2020-21

Post by Ruckedtobits »

Compiling a Ranking Chart

We have now been compiling Depth Charts of Irish Rugby players since just before the selection of the World Cup Squad in 2011. The past decade has seen some of the greatest days for the national team and as we approach a new year, there are some who wonder will we ever see the like again.

The 2020-21 Depth Chart has been compiled more than 20 months after the previous assessment in February 2019, just 6 months before Joe Schmidt named his 2019 World Cup Squad.

As we consider this may be a period of considerable change, we have slightly altered the format and set out the rankings as three different 30-man Squads - Alpha, Delta & Epsilon and also Squad X - more of which below

Criteria For 2020-21 Ranking Chart

The criteria for the 2020-21 rankings are the same as those previously used, viz:
1. Players may only be included once on the list
2. All players listed in positions in which they have played.
3. Players are listed at the highest level possible in a suitable position.
4. Listing is based on match (i.e. not training) performances from 1st January 2020 up till 6th December 2020.
5. Players listed as injured have been announced as "long-term" injuries by their Provinces.

Some players have been excluded as follows:

Retired (11)
Robert Kearney
Rory Best
Sean O’Brien
Fergus McFadden
Tyler Bleyandahl
Craig Ronaldson
Darren Cave
Ronan O’Mahony
D Williams
Robin Copeland
Barry Daly

Injured (6)
Will Addison
Joey Carbery
Adam Byrne
Angus Curtis
Cillian Gallagher
Jeremy Loughman

Not Eligible (9)
Simon Zebo
Donnchadh Ryan
Paddy Jackson
Stuart Olding
Niyi Adolokun
Darren O’Shea
Dave O’Callaghan
Mick Kearney
Ian Nagle


Ireland XV Depth Chart - 7 December 2020
         Squad Alpha - A & B                   Squad Delta C & D 

15. H. Keenan         Jimmy O'Brien*       S Daly*         M Lowry* 
14. K Earls           A Conway             D Kearney       C Nash*
13. G Ringrose        C Farrell            R O'Loughlin    T Farrell*
12. R Henshaw         B Aki                S McCloskey     C Frawley*
11. J Lowe            J Stockdale          J Larmour       C Kelleher* 
10. J Sexton          J Carty              B Burns         R Byrne
9.  K Marmion         C Murray             J G Park        J Cooney
8.  C Doris           P Boyle*             G Coombes*      J Conan
7.  P O'Mahony        JVd Flyer            W Connors       Jaryd Butler*
6.  CJ Stander        R Ruddock            D Leavy         Josh Murphy*
5.  Jas Ryan          D. Toner             T Beirne        T Ahern*
4.  I Henderson       Q Roux               U Dillane       G Thornbury*
3.  T Furlong         A Porter             J Ryan          F Bealham
2.  R Kelleher        R Herring            D Heffernan     J Treacy
1.  C Healy           D Kilcoyne           E O'Sullivan    P Dooley*


* Uncapped player


       Squad Epsilon E & F                

15. M. Haley         T O'Halloran       
14. C. Gilroy        R Baloucombe*        
13. L Marshall       J Hume*           
12. Tom O'Brien*     Tom Daly*              
11. D Sweetnam       A Woottam*         
10. H Byrne*         B Healy*             
9.  C Blade*         L McGrath         
8.  J O'Donoghue     M Deegan
7.  S Penny*         S Reidy           
6.  J O'Sullivan*    Jordi Murphy          
5.  U Dillane        J Dunne*            
4.  F Wycherly*      K Treadwell            
3.  T O'Toole*       M Bent            
2.  KO'Byrne*        D Sheehan*          
1.  Ed Byrne         J McGrath         


* Uncapped player

On this occasion, rather than continue the rankings down to eight teams as previously, we have decided to outline rankings for players born after 1st January 1996, the next generation. We have outlined them as Squad X - 30 players whom we consider will figure at National level in the coming seasons:

Squad X Depth Chart - 7 December 2020

       Squad X                

15. H Keenan         Jimmy O'Brien       
14. J Larmour        R Baloucombe        
13. Tommy O'Brien    S French           
12. C Frawley        J Hume             
11. S Daly           Calvin Nash         
10. H Byrne          B Healy             
9.  C Casey          C Reilly         
8.  C Doris          G Coombes
7.  S Penny          W Connors           
6.  P Boyle          R Baird          
5.  Jas Ryan         T Ahern            
4.  F Wycherly       J Dunne            
3.  T O'Toole        T Clarkson            
2.  R Kelleher       D Sheehan          
1.  A Porter         J Wyncherly         

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dropkick
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Re: Irish Depth Chart 2020-21

Post by dropkick »

There's some talent in squad X. Possibly a new golden generation?


Hopefully the U20s performances of the last 2 years is the new standard.

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tomthefan
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Re: Irish Depth Chart 2020-21

Post by tomthefan »

Luke McGrath is a lot lower down the depth chart than I'd have expected.
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Oldschoolsocks
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Re: Irish Depth Chart 2020-21

Post by Oldschoolsocks »

some list for one list in fairness, good man R2B.

couple of suggestions
1 - assuming 5 is TH lock, Roux and T Beirne could possibly swap
2 - I thought James Ryan played better when paired with Roux so put him at 4 maybe

so
5: Roux Toner Treadwell? Ahern
4: Ryan Henderson Dillane T Beirne?

Ruckedtobits
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Re: Irish Depth Chart 2020-21

Post by Ruckedtobits »

Thanks all for thoughts / comments. But..........Oops......I ommited RYAN BAIRD :roll:

Revision in progress and I will look at 2nd row also on the basis of the logical comments offered.

brenno
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Re: Irish Depth Chart 2020-21

Post by brenno »

Might have to bring Jack Aungier into the 3 somewhere. Thought he was excellent yesterday when he came on for Connacht against an enormous Racing pack. Held up very well - shows the benefit of pitching youngsters in against top opposition

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Re: Irish Depth Chart 2020-21

Post by Ruckedtobits »

I'm not generally given to campaigning for individual player selection, but I believe that Ireland are really missing out in ignoring Jack Carty's current form.

Playing with a pack which is often competitive but rarely dominant, he has contributed hugely to making that team a real force by the manner in which he controls games and optimises the talents available to his team.

Sunday's display against an absolutely star-studded Racing92 team was a case in point. Although Connacht failed to sneak the win that their second-half display warranted, Carty's skill in keeping them on the front foot and probing for weaknesses in the R92 defence were exemplary and worthy of greater recognition.

Sexton and the Byrnes play behind Leinster packs who largely dominate their opponents. Burns has also benefitted from playing with a regular supply of front-foot ball in Ulster and even Madigan looked good behind that opportunity last weekend. But Carty rarely has that luxury but nevertheless continues to provide his team with top-class guidance and leadership.

Farrell and Co would do themselves and Ireland a favour by including Carty as a really viable option as cover for Sexton, for however long is the remainder of his international career. Carty, playing with the support of his Coaches, and playing with a group of players of higher skill than he normally performs with, could do a great job for Ireland whilst H Byrne and B Healy accumulate the sort of experience that he has already acquired.

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Oldschool
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Re: Irish Depth Chart 2020-21

Post by Oldschool »

Ruckedtobits wrote:
December 15th, 2020, 7:45 am
I'm not generally given to campaigning for individual player selection, but I believe that Ireland are really missing out in ignoring Jack Carty's current form.

Playing with a pack which is often competitive but rarely dominant, he has contributed hugely to making that team a real force by the manner in which he controls games and optimises the talents available to his team.

Sunday's display against an absolutely star-studded Racing92 team was a case in point. Although Connacht failed to sneak the win that their second-half display warranted, Carty's skill in keeping them on the front foot and probing for weaknesses in the R92 defence were exemplary and worthy of greater recognition.

Sexton and the Byrnes play behind Leinster packs who largely dominate their opponents. Burns has also benefitted from playing with a regular supply of front-foot ball in Ulster and even Madigan looked good behind that opportunity last weekend. But Carty rarely has that luxury but nevertheless continues to provide his team with top-class guidance and leadership.

Farrell and Co would do themselves and Ireland a favour by including Carty as a really viable option as cover for Sexton, for however long is the remainder of his international career. Carty, playing with the support of his Coaches, and playing with a group of players of higher skill than he normally performs with, could do a great job for Ireland whilst H Byrne and B Healy accumulate the sort of experience that he has already acquired.
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Great post.
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leinsterforever
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Re: Irish Depth Chart 2020-21

Post by leinsterforever »

Baloucoune and Rob Lyttle have been getting selected ahead of Gilroy for Ulster over the last year, and rightly so, in my opinion. Although I guess you could have Baloucoune on the long term injury list as well. Tore his hamstring off the bone apparently. Hopefully he can make a full recovery.

I think Stewart Moore should be in squad X instead of Sean French.

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Re: Irish Depth Chart 2020-21

Post by wixfjord »

Ruckedtobits wrote:
December 15th, 2020, 7:45 am


Sunday's display against an absolutely star-studded Racing92 team was a case in point. Although Connacht failed to sneak the win that their second-half display warranted, Carty's skill in keeping them on the front foot and probing for weaknesses in the R92 defence were exemplary and worthy of greater recognition.

Aye but his fairly ropey display in the first half contributed to them being quite far behind...

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Re: Irish Depth Chart 2020-21

Post by LeRouxIsPHat »

leinsterforever wrote:
December 15th, 2020, 11:47 am
Baloucoune and Rob Lyttle have been getting selected ahead of Gilroy for Ulster over the last year, and rightly so, in my opinion. Although I guess you could have Baloucoune on the long term injury list as well. Tore his hamstring off the bone apparently. Hopefully he can make a full recovery.

I think Stewart Moore should be in squad X instead of Sean French.
Moore looks very good. He’s a real all rounder and very hungry to get involved on both sides of the ball, reminds me a lot of Tommy O’Brien actually.

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Re: Irish Depth Chart 2020-21

Post by Ruckedtobits »

LeRouxIsPHat wrote:
December 15th, 2020, 12:31 pm
leinsterforever wrote:
December 15th, 2020, 11:47 am
Baloucoune and Rob Lyttle have been getting selected ahead of Gilroy for Ulster over the last year, and rightly so, in my opinion. Although I guess you could have Baloucoune on the long term injury list as well. Tore his hamstring off the bone apparently. Hopefully he can make a full recovery.

I think Stewart Moore should be in squad X instead of Sean French.
Moore looks very good. He’s a real all rounder and very hungry to get involved on both sides of the ball, reminds me a lot of Tommy O’Brien actually.
Certainly consider Moore is a real prospect. Looks a little 'one-sided' in his defence and doesn't seem to have the same confidence as French. That may be personality or current coaching opportunities as young Ulster backs often seem subdued.

king
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Re: Irish Depth Chart 2020-21

Post by king »

Ultan dillane features in C and E. I would consider toner to be a lot lower in the pecking order now. Beirne and dillane are both being selected ahead of him at int level and Kline, threadwell also playing well this season. Think toners nearly done tbf great player in his time.

Also I don't think r O'Loughlin is as high as ranked here, Arnold has been capped and Daly and Goggin both going well.

Agree with adding Aungier he's in a great battle with McCoy and bealham at Connacht and holding his own. I'd rate him well ahead of T o Toole.

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Re: Irish Depth Chart 2020-21

Post by Ruckedtobits »

Well spotted on the double entry of Dillane. Baird is one of the missing names on the lists.

I'll be updating after the weekend, which was always the intention, and will pay due attention to all comments as well as what has been evident since 3rd December.

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Re: Irish Depth Chart 2020-21

Post by erskinechilders »

Regarding our outhalf position, I've compared our 3 best young outhalves IMO ( H Byrne, Healy & Crowley ) to players of a similar age in France ( Carbonel, Ntamack, Jalibert ). You could do the same probably with their English counterparts which I've yet to do( Smith, Umage etc. ).

What is very noticeable is the difference in game time the players have received. Obviously there are a number of factors at play, namely the fact that France have 14 clubs in their top league and as such game time should be easier to come by. Apart from that, should we be worried about the lack of development our next gen of 10's are getting in comparison to our 6N rivals?

French vs Irish Outhalfs
Harry Byrne Ben Healy Jack Crowley Mathieu Jalibert Louis Carbonel Romain Ntamack
Club Leinster Munster Munster Bordeaux Toulon Toulouse
DOB 22/04/99 29/06/99 13/01/00 06/11/98 04/02/99 01/05/99
Heigh: 1.88 ( 6’2 ) 1.91 ( 6’3 ) 1.83 ( 6’0 ) 1.8 ( 5’9 ) 1.77 ( 5’8 ) 1.86 ( 6’1 )
Weight: 90kg 93kg 88kg 81kg 88kg 81kg
Club Apps 16 10 1 51 37 43
Club Points108 79 2 472 241 145
Intl. Apps - - - 8 2 18
Intl. Points - - - 29 8 122

AVG : Irish French
Age 20.66 21.33
Club Apps 9 43.66
Club Points 63 286
Intl. Apps - 9.33
Intl. Points - 53

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dropkick
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Re: Irish Depth Chart 2020-21

Post by dropkick »

erskinechilders wrote:
January 6th, 2021, 1:21 pm
Regarding our outhalf position, I've compared our 3 best young outhalves IMO ( H Byrne, Healy & Crowley ) to players of a similar age in France ( Carbonel, Ntamack, Jalibert ). You could do the same probably with their English counterparts which I've yet to do( Smith, Umage etc. ).

What is very noticeable is the difference in game time the players have received. Obviously there are a number of factors at play, namely the fact that France have 14 clubs in their top league and as such game time should be easier to come by. Apart from that, should we be worried about the lack of development our next gen of 10's are getting in comparison to our 6N rivals?

French vs Irish Outhalfs
Harry Byrne Ben Healy Jack Crowley Mathieu Jalibert Louis Carbonel Romain Ntamack
Club Leinster Munster Munster Bordeaux Toulon Toulouse
DOB 22/04/99 29/06/99 13/01/00 06/11/98 04/02/99 01/05/99
Heigh: 1.88 ( 6’2 ) 1.91 ( 6’3 ) 1.83 ( 6’0 ) 1.8 ( 5’9 ) 1.77 ( 5’8 ) 1.86 ( 6’1 )
Weight: 90kg 93kg 88kg 81kg 88kg 81kg
Club Apps 16 10 1 51 37 43
Club Points108 79 2 472 241 145
Intl. Apps - - - 8 2 18
Intl. Points - - - 29 8 122

AVG : Irish French
Age 20.66 21.33
Club Apps 9 43.66
Club Points 63 286
Intl. Apps - 9.33
Intl. Points - 53

We're the only country where this happens. France and England have enough teams to give everyone opportunities. The big southern hemisphere 3 would let most of their 10s leave and concentrate on the top talents. Wales and Scotland are like the SH trio. The Irish system is not fully geared towards team Ireland.


The situation with Hanrahan in Munster is interesting. It looks like he will get another 2 year contract. If he does and I was Jack Crowley, I would be sounding out Connacht. You have to be first or second choice to get a decent run of games to sharpen your skills, imo.

erskinechilders
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Re: Irish Depth Chart 2020-21

Post by erskinechilders »

Ironically Munster now have a logjam of 10's. Best case scenario, they have Carbery, Crowley, Healy & Hanrahan. The first 3 of those players are/ will be international class players. What do we do with them? If Carbery had stayed at Leinster he would probably be Leinster & Ireland first choice 15, but c'est la vie. Are the IRFU going to put pressure on Munster to one of Healy or Crowley away? Where does he go? Ulster have Billy Burns & Madigan. Leinster have Sexton & the 2 Byrnes, Connacht have Carty? Maybe a loan move?

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munster#1
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Re: Irish Depth Chart 2020-21

Post by munster#1 »

Paul O’Connell to the rescue.

POC is taking over as forwards coach and will be assisting with the lineout.

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Re: Irish Depth Chart 2020-21

Post by sunshiner1 »

by erskinechilders

Ironically Munster now have a logjam of 10's. Best case scenario, they have Carbery, Crowley, Healy & Hanrahan. The first 3 of those players are/ will be international class players. What do we do with them? If Carbery had stayed at Leinster he would probably be Leinster & Ireland first choice 15, but c'est la vie. Are the IRFU going to put pressure on Munster to one of Healy or Crowley away? Where does he go? Ulster have Billy Burns & Madigan. Leinster have Sexton & the 2 Byrnes, Connacht have Carty? Maybe a loan move?
I'd head to Connacht. The two Fitzgeralds are squad players at best and Crowley could overtake them. You only have to look at Oliver and Wotton to see how a move can be a jolt to move up a gear.

king
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Re: Irish Depth Chart 2020-21

Post by king »

A team of the unnamed

Buckley
Delahunt
Marty Moore
Alan o connor
Ross moloney
E masterson
Oliver
Timony
?
Johnson
Peter o sullivan
Scannell
Goggin
Mcillroy
S fitzgerald

McAllister
John andrew
Aungier
D o connor
Niall murray
Sobrien
S Masterson
Mccann
?
C Fitzgerald
Lyttle
Peter Robb
Conor o brien
De butler
Ludik

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