Irish Depth Chart 2020-21

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Re: Irish Depth Chart 2020-21

Post by Ruckedtobits »

Should the 2021 6 Nations proceed, it is likely that the outlook, and thus selection choices, of the six Head Coaches will be split into two categories. In Category A reside Eddie Jones, Fabien Galthie and Gregor Townsend, each one certain to be their country's Head Coach for the 2023 World Cup and thus selecting their teams with at least one eye on that objective. The three Category B Head Coaches, Andy Farrell, Wayne Pivac and Franco Smith will be selecting their teams for the primary purpose of trying to ensure that they are still their country's Head Coaches come RWC 2023 and will thus be 100% focussed solely on the competition results.

These different perspectives will become evident quickly during the Tournament and in particular for the Irish players. If, as I suspect, Farrell is selecting his teams with the objective of ensuring his continuing presence as Head Coach up to and beyond RWC 2023, we will see selections with a bias towards experience and proven defensive expertise. Experimental selections, targeted in part at giving younger players the opportunity to gain the experience which will be invaluable when we reach France in 2023, will be minimal and the primary objective will at all times be to select Squads which are capable of winning the greatest number of games in the forthcoming Tournament, even if some of the players are unlikely to be at their peak by the time we reach that competition.

Since the first week in December, the Irish provincial sides have been pitted against each other and some of the best European teams. Munster and Connacht in particular both acheived landmark away wins, in Clermont and Dublin respectively. Ulster and Connacht delivered promising, but unsuccesful, displays against major European opponents, and both could had scored wins with either greater experience or calmness among their decision makers. Leinster, despite acheiving the targeted two wins against their English and French opponents, displayed real signs of vulnerability against Connacht and again in an A interprovincial against Ulster, losing both games decisively.

Thus during the past six weeks since compiling the first Depth Chart for this 2020-21 Season, there have been many performances of note to advance or demote the claims of players seeking international selection.

The purpose of opening this piece by referring to the variables for selection in this Seasons Six-Nations competition is to provide context for the criteria for ranking in these lists. The Chart has been compiled solely on the basis of the author's perception of the relative ranking of the available players, based on their performances to date this Season. It is not compiled as a predictor of international selection this Season.

Criteria For 2020-21 Ranking Chart

The criteria for the 2020-21 rankings are the same as those previously used, viz:
1. Players may only be included once on the list
2. All players listed in positions in which they have played.
3. Players are listed at the highest level possible in a suitable position.
4. Listing is based on match (i.e. not training) performances from 1st January 2020 up till 15th January 2021.
5. Players listed as injured have been announced as "long-term" injuries by their Provinces.


Ireland XV Depth Chart - 15 January 2021
         Squad Alpha - A & B                   Squad Delta C & D 

15. H. Keenan         Jimmy O'Brien*       S Daly*         M Lowry* 
14. K Earls           A Conway             J Larmour       A Woottam*
13. G Ringrose        C Farrell            J Hume*         H Hyde*
12. R Henshaw         B Aki                S McCloskey     T Daly*
11. J Lowe            J Stockdale          D Kearney       A Sexton* 
10. JCarty            J Sexton             B Burns         R Byrne
9.  K Marmion         J G Park             C Murray        J Cooney
8.  C Doris           G Coombes*           P Boyle*        J Conan
7.  P O'Mahony        JVd Flyer            Jaryd Butler*   W Connors
6.  R Ruddock         CJ Stander           D Leavy         Josh Murphy*
5.  Jas Ryan          T Beirne             U Dillane       D. Toner
4.  I Henderson       Q Roux               G Thornbury*    F Wycherly*    
3.  A Porter          J Ryan               T O'Toole       M Bent
2.  R Herring         R Kelleher           S Cronin        J Treacy
1.  C Healy           D Kilcoyne           P Dooley*       E O'Sullivan 


* Uncapped player


Full Back
Hugo Keenan is the foremost of three young players who have demonstrated specialist ability at full-back. Shane Daly might also be added to this group if he gets more opportunities in his favourite position. Keenan, although also selected at both National and Provincial level on the wing is already a consummate performer at full back and has shown the benefits of his Sevens experience, particularly in his counter-attacking ability, whether from the last line or operating as a second receiver.

Right Wing
Keith Earls remains our foremost attacking winger and finisher. Despite being at an age where many wingers show loss of acceleration or pace, he continues to perform to the highest standards and has an unerring ability to finish half-chances. Andy Conway has suffered an unfortunate run of playing luck and is certainly vulnerable to displacement by Jordan Larmour whose only performance since returning from injury demonstrated a welcome improvement in fielding high kicks, either following up or under bombardment.

Left Wing
James Lowe has proven that his try-scoring and broken play abilities can translate from Provincial to International level. His fielding and defensive abilities see him ranked above Jacob Stockdale but it is a toss-up between them, with Stockdale needing to re-focus his defensive efforts in particular to gain Squad selection.

Centres
Ringrose, Henshaw and Aki are without doubt the three centres who will vie for first-choice selection. Alongside them Chris Farrell has many admirers but despite his physical attributes his passing range limits his effectiveness at the very top level. The young Ulster duo of Hume and Hyde are fast developing and both have the physical attributes to graduate to the top level of the game without too much delay. Stuart McCloskey and his Connacht ‘twin’ big Tom Daly have both show the skill and muscularity which would probably earn them international caps elsewhere.

Out-half
Jonny Sexton as Captain and previously World player of the year is a talisman of the Irish team. However, the years roll by and he has become injury prone to the extent that his best service to Ireland may be in becoming a 'closer out' of games. Jack Carty has earned his elevation to the top spot, although he needs to focus more on the ‘big moments’ at international level. Billy Burns and Ross Byrne have both played well in big games to hold off the younger challengers

Scrum-half
Without doubt the position in which it was hardest to decide on the current pecking order. Conor Murray has re-discovered some of this best form but possibly not enough to put himself back to first choice. Park did not disappoint in his Autumn debut and Cooney looks to have rehabilitated himself over the past three months. Marmion, by the combination of his passing, breaks and tackling, grabs the top slot but there’s nothing between the four.

Loosehead
Cian Healy looks very close to the end of his reign as Ireland’s No 1. He stays at the top of the list because no other contender has put his hand high enough on the field. Kilcoyne could displace Healy in the next three months but this is Ireland’s weakest position at present.

Hooker
The relative strength / weakness at hooker is all about the throwing ability of the contenders. Or rather the lack of this skill. Kelleher, Cronin, Treacy and Heffernan have all demonstrated their ball carrying and defensive prowess, but all lack the accuracy and nerve to consistently deliver the ball into the line-out in the manner required. A major Achilles heel of this Squad.

Tighthead
Tadgh Furlong’s continued absence rules him out of contention on this list and he is a major absence. Porter has carried the weight throughout the Autumn and has fought his way to the contenders for Lions Tour selection. John Ryan keeps Tom O’Toole in the queue and Michael Bent has demonstrated conclusively that some props have their best days in maturity.

Second-row
James Ryan, Iain Henderson and Quinn Roux are now the clear contenders for selection in a starting team but Tadgh Beirne and Ultan Dillane have both shown in recent weeks that they offer less conventional strengths of huge value to their team. Thornbury, with height of the Toner variety, could yet become a viable international as will Tomas Ahern at some point in the future. Fineen Wycherly has developed into a top quality Provincial lock but may just lack the height to become an international selection.

Flankers
The number of contenders for all three position in the back-row is even deeper than those at scrum-half. Peter O’Mahony has excelled in the number seven jersey with his line-out ability providing a unique skill ahead of his opponents. Rhys Ruddock has dominated the Leinster back-row performances throughout the season and shades CJ in claiming the No 6 jersey ahead of a host of others including Leavy, Murphy and Baird. Josh v der Flyer, Dan Leavy, Jarryd Butler, Will Connors, Ryan Baird and even Scott Penny are viable contenders for the No 7 shirt, who will compete to change these rankings in the coming months

No 8
CJ lost his claim to the No 8 shirt to Caelan Doris who, with a series of excellent performances in the Autumn internationals just like Hugo Keenan, has shown taken that this level of the game holds no fears for him. Gavin Coombes and Paul Boyle have both shown at provincial level that they are live contenders for international selection and Jack Conan will have to show full rehabilitation from injury to get back into the spotlight.


We have only outlined the first four ranks of our Depth Chart in this post but we will post ranks 5th to 8th and also the Under 24 Squad X (players born after 1st January 1996, the next generation) in the coming week

king
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Re: Irish Depth Chart 2020-21

Post by king »

I always look forward to these list RTB good work again.

Lots of really close calls there but there are 2 that struck me as a little odd. Tom o toole and Bent would not feature ahead of Bealham for me and Jimmy o Brien hasn't convinced me yet that he's in contention for a second choice full back. Not with larmour and Daly picked below him in the order.

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Re: Irish Depth Chart 2020-21

Post by Laighin Break »

Agree on the above comment re JOB, and I'd also expect that Baird is higher up in the pecking order, considering his inclusion in the last squad.

And a big bug bear of mine - it's TADHG

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Re: Irish Depth Chart 2020-21

Post by Ruckedtobits »

Yesterday we posted the first four rankings of the current Depth Chart. We now add ranks 5 - 8, with one amendment to the Rankings for 1-4 being the substitution in the fourth rank Loosehead of James Cronin for the previously included Eoin O'Sullivan. O'Sullivan now figures in the ranking below.

Ireland XV Depth Chart - 15 January 2021
       Squad Epsilon E & F                        Squad Gamma G & H        

15. M. Haley         M Gallagher*        T O'Halloran*     S Fitzgerald*     
14. D Sweetnam       C Nash*             R Balacombe*      P O'Sullivan*         
13. Tom O'Brien*     L Marshall          R O'Loughlin      Tom Farrell*     
12. C Frawley*       R Scannell          S Arnold          D Goggin*           
11. C Kelleher*      E McIlroy*          C Rankin*         M Healy 
10. H Byrne*         B Johnson*          B Healy*          I Madigan   
9.  C Blade*         L McGrath           C Casey*          C Reilly*  
8.  J O'Donoghue     J O'Sullivan*       E Masterson*      D McCann*
7.  S Penny*         S Reidy             J Hodnett*        C Oliver*
6.  R Baird*         Jordi Murphy        M Rae*            S Masterson*       
5.  T Ahern*         J Dunne*            B Holland         C Izuchukwu*     
4.  K Treadwell      J Kleyn             R Malony*         A O'Connor*        
3.  M Moore          F Bealham           Robertson-McCoy*  J Aungier*
2.  D Heffernan      E Delahunt*         K O'Byrne*        D Sheehan*      
1.  E O'Sullivan     Ed Byrne            J Wycherly*       D Buckley*   


* Uncapped

In the first post of this series, we indicated that we have decided to include two teams drawn from players born after 1st January 1996, the next generation. We have outlined them as Squad X - 30 players whom we consider will figure at National level in the coming seasons (and some already have):


              Squad X                

15. H Keenan         Jimmy O'Brien*       
14. A Sexton*        C Nash*        
13. H Hyde*          Tommy O'Brien*           
12. C Frawley*       J Hume*              
11. S Daly           R Ballacombe*         
10. H Byrne*         B Healy*             
9.  C Casey*         C Reilly*         
8.  C Doris          G Coombes*
7.  W Connors        S Penny*           
6.  P Boyle*         R Baird*          
5.  Jas Ryan         J Dunne*            
4.  F Wycherly*      T Ahern*            
3.  T O'Toole*       J Aungier*            
2.  R Kelleher       D Sheehan*          
1.  A Porter         J Wycherly         

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Re: Irish Depth Chart 2020-21

Post by backrower8 »

Thanks for these depth charts RTB.

C Kelleher is a proven rugby player and 11, whereas A Sexton is neither yet imo.

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Re: Irish Depth Chart 2020-21

Post by Fan with smartphone »

Thanks as ever rtb. What do people see as the plan for Ciaran Frawley? Is he going to be a competitor for 10, or is he going to be a second 5/8 type at 12? The 12s in teams A-D...they aren’t really distributors and Aki is the oldest at a spritely 30. Chris Farrell would prob go in if the top 2 were hurt...he’s not really a distributor either. Frawley has impressed me. But I’m not sure what the best thing to do with him is.

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Re: Irish Depth Chart 2020-21

Post by Barry »

Fan with smartphone wrote:Thanks as ever rtb. What do people see as the plan for Ciaran Frawley? Is he going to be a competitor for 10, or is he going to be a second 5/8 type at 12? The 12s in teams A-D...they aren’t really distributors and Aki is the oldest at a spritely 30. Chris Farrell would prob go in if the top 2 were hurt...he’s not really a distributor either. Frawley has impressed me. But I’m not sure what the best thing to do with him is.
A 10 who's played at 12 a lot, would like to see him get a run at 15 sometime.

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Re: Irish Depth Chart 2020-21

Post by erskinechilders »

I think long term Leinster would hope Frawley to be a 12/15. A ball playing 12 would make a huge difference to the team and a kg or two extra on his 6'4 frame would help with his ball carrying as a 12 too.

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Re: Irish Depth Chart 2020-21

Post by erskinechilders »

Serious depth has been developed in the pack after this 6N. Our back 5 could be at the strongest its ever been in terms of depth ( I realise we have had better players, O'Connell etc. ) When you look at the depth chart its unbelievable. Loose head is probably the main long termm worry :

LH : Healy, Kilcoyne, Byrne, O'Sullivan, Dooley, Cronin ( next gen : Milne, Wycherley )
HK : Herring, Kelleher, Heffernan, Scannell ( next gen : Sheehan, Tom Stewart )
TH : Furlong, Porter, O'Toole, Ryan, Bealham ( next gen : Knox, Salanoa, Clarkson )
SR : Ryan, Henderson, Beirne, Baird, Dillane, Thornbury ( next gen : Ahern, Dunne, Izuchukwu )
Blindside : Beirne, Ruddock, O'Donoghue, ( next gen : McCann, Soroka )
Openside : Connors, VDF, O'Mahony, Leavy, Murphy ( next gen : Penny, Hodnett )
No.8 : Doris, Conan, Deegan ( next gen : Kendellen, McCann )

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Re: Irish Depth Chart 2020-21

Post by Ruckedtobits »

Post Six Nations Ranking Chart

We continue with the format of rankings as three different 30-man Squads - Alpha, Delta & Epsilon and also Squad X and the same criteria as previously:

Criteria For 2020-21 Ranking Chart

1. Players may only be included once on the list
2. All players listed in positions in which they have played.
3. Players are listed at the highest level possible in a suitable position.
4. Listing is based on match (i.e. not training) performances from 1st January 2020 up till 22 March 2021.
5. Players listed as injured have been announced as "long-term" injuries by their Provinces.

Injured (5)
Will Addison
Adam Byrne
Angus Curtis
Max Deegan
Conor O'Brien

Not Eligible (9)
Simon Zebo
Donnchadh Ryan
Paddy Jackson
Stuart Olding
Niyi Adolokun
Darren O’Shea
Dave O’Callaghan
Mick Kearney
Ian Nagle


Ireland XV Depth Chart - 23 March 2021

Squad Alpha - A & B            Squad Delta C & D 

15. H. Keenan         M Lowry*             M. Haley*       Jimmy O'Brien*  
14. K Earls           J Larmour            A Conway        R Baloucombe*
13. G Ringrose        C Farrell            J Hume*         R O'Loughlin
12. R Henshaw         B Aki                S McCloskey     C Frawley*
11. D Kearney         J Stockdale          J Lowe          A Woottam* 
10. J Sexton          J Carbery            R Byrne         J Carty
9.  C Murray          J G Park             K Marmion       L McGrath
8.  CJ Stander        J Conan              P Boyle*        G Coombes*      
7.  W Connors         JVd Flyer            P O'Mahony      S Penny*
6.  T Beirne          C Doris              R Ruddock       R Baird
5.  Jas Ryan          G Thornbury*         T Ahern*        D.Toner      
4.  I Henderson       Q Roux               U Dillane       C Izuchukwu*
3.  T Furlong         A Porter             J Ryan          F Bealham
2.  R Herring         R Kelleher           D Heffernan     J Treacy
1.  C Healy           D Kilcoyne           J Cronin*       P Dooley*


* Uncapped player


b] Squad Epsilon E & F                

15. S Daly*          T O'Halloran       
14. C Nash*          P Sullivan*        
13. L Marshall       T Farrell*           
12. Tom O'Brien*     Tom Daly*              
11. D Sweetnam       C Kelleher*         
10. B Burns          H Byrne*             
9.  J Cooney         C Blade*         
8.  J O'Donoghue     J O'Sullivan*
7.  Jaryd Butler*    C Oliver*           
6.  D Leavy          Josh Murphy*          
5.  J Dunne*         N Murray*            
4.  F Wycherly*      K Treadwell            
3.  T O'Toole*       M Bent            
2.  KO'Byrne*        D Sheehan*          
1.  Ed Byrne         E O'Sullivan         


* Uncapped player

On this occasion, rather than continue the rankings down to eight teams as previously, we have decided to outline rankings for players born after 1st January 1996, the next generation. We have outlined them as Squad X - 30 players whom we consider will figure at National level in the coming seasons:

Squad X Depth Chart
  • [list=]
    15. H Keenan;             Jimmy O'Brien*       
    14. J Larmour;            R Baloucombe*        
    13. Tom O'Brien*;         S French*           
    12. C Frawley*;           J Hume*             
    11. S Daly;               C Nash*         
    10. H Byrne*;             B Healy*             
    9.  C Casey;              C Reilly*         
    8.  C Doris;              G Coombes*
    7.  W Connors;            S Penny*           
    6.  R Baird;              P Boyle*          
    5.  Jas Ryan;             T Ahern*            
    4.  F Wycherly*;          J Dunne*            
    3.  T O'Toole;            T Clarkson*            
    2.  R Kelleher;           D Sheehan*          
    1.  A Porter;             J Wyncherly*         
[/pre][/list]
Last edited by Ruckedtobits on March 24th, 2021, 8:07 am, edited 3 times in total.

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ronk
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Re: Irish Depth Chart 2020-21

Post by ronk »

Connors and Baird have been getting international minutes but cant get on squad X starting team behind guys who aren't. Harsh.

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Re: Irish Depth Chart 2020-21

Post by Ruckedtobits »

ronk wrote:
March 24th, 2021, 4:13 am
Connors and Baird have been getting international minutes but cant get on squad X starting team behind guys who aren't. Harsh.
Point taken the way I have listed them. However, a major reason for setting out the rankings in three Squads (and Squad X) is precisely because I believe that there are valid reasons why different players might be selected for different oppositions and in many cases there is little to choose between players. This is not true in all instances but it is a fact in many positions.

In the cases in point, I believe that Connors is probably now the pre-eminent open-side flanker in the country with his improvement in ball-carrying. If there were not so many contenders for the No 6 shirt, Baird would be ranked further up the ladder. I cannot however envisage him at present as a real contender in the second row, except as a very valuable "finisher". In time he may become the Irish version of Courteney Lawes

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Re: Irish Depth Chart 2020-21

Post by wixfjord »

You can't see Baird as a real contender in the second row? Heh?

He is objectively ahead of Thornbury, Toner, Ahern, Dillane, Wycherly and probably Roux too.

At present he's our fourth second row in the depth chart.

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Re: Irish Depth Chart 2020-21

Post by backrower8 »

erskinechilders wrote:
March 23rd, 2021, 7:17 pm
Serious depth has been developed in the pack after this 6N. Our back 5 could be at the strongest its ever been in terms of depth ( I realise we have had better players, O'Connell etc. ) When you look at the depth chart its unbelievable. Loose head is probably the main long termm worry :

LH : Healy, Kilcoyne, Byrne, O'Sullivan, Dooley, Cronin ( next gen : Milne, Wycherley )
HK : Herring, Kelleher, Heffernan, Scannell ( next gen : Sheehan, Tom Stewart )
TH : Furlong, Porter, O'Toole, Ryan, Bealham ( next gen : Knox, Salanoa, Clarkson )
SR : Ryan, Henderson, Beirne, Baird, Dillane, Thornbury ( next gen : Ahern, Dunne, Izuchukwu )
Blindside : Beirne, Ruddock, O'Donoghue, ( next gen : McCann, Soroka )
Openside : Connors, VDF, O'Mahony, Leavy, Murphy ( next gen : Penny, Hodnett )
No.8 : Doris, Conan, Deegan ( next gen : Kendellen, McCann )
Nicely done thanks.

Three points of difference. Roux is in the SR mix after Beirne/Baird. Murphy is a blindside through and through (possible POM too). Coombes is missing from your 8s. Before Deegan given he has been out almost all year.

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Re: Irish Depth Chart 2020-21

Post by erskinechilders »

backrower8 wrote:
March 24th, 2021, 8:51 am
erskinechilders wrote:
March 23rd, 2021, 7:17 pm
Serious depth has been developed in the pack after this 6N. Our back 5 could be at the strongest its ever been in terms of depth ( I realise we have had better players, O'Connell etc. ) When you look at the depth chart its unbelievable. Loose head is probably the main long termm worry :

LH : Healy, Kilcoyne, Byrne, O'Sullivan, Dooley, Cronin ( next gen : Milne, Wycherley )
HK : Herring, Kelleher, Heffernan, Scannell ( next gen : Sheehan, Tom Stewart )
TH : Furlong, Porter, O'Toole, Ryan, Bealham ( next gen : Knox, Salanoa, Clarkson )
SR : Ryan, Henderson, Beirne, Baird, Dillane, Thornbury ( next gen : Ahern, Dunne, Izuchukwu )
Blindside : Beirne, Ruddock, O'Donoghue, ( next gen : McCann, Soroka )
Openside : Connors, VDF, O'Mahony, Leavy, Murphy ( next gen : Penny, Hodnett )
No.8 : Doris, Conan, Deegan ( next gen : Kendellen, McCann )
Nicely done thanks.

Three points of difference. Roux is in the SR mix after Beirne/Baird. Murphy is a blindside through and through (possible POM too). Coombes is missing from your 8s. Before Deegan given he has been out almost all year.
Thanks, I remembered Coombes after I had written it but yeah he's definitely ahead of Deegan over the course of the last year. I think Dillane & Thornbury are in better form than Roux, I would have them as my starting Connacht SR.

That's Jordi I'm talking about, not Josh. And I don't see POM going back to 6. I think the game has moved towards a bigger 6 in the Beirne, PSDT mould. I think POM will be at 7 from here on.

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Re: Irish Depth Chart 2020-21

Post by ronk »

I’d put Baird ahead of Wycherley now. And I’d put Deegan in as the sub 6.

But Wycherley is probably ahead of Jack Dunne at this point. Ahern hasn’t played much but I don’t see an issue with putting him there.

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Re: Irish Depth Chart 2020-21

Post by backrower8 »

erskinechilders wrote:
March 24th, 2021, 9:05 am
backrower8 wrote:
March 24th, 2021, 8:51 am
erskinechilders wrote:
March 23rd, 2021, 7:17 pm
Serious depth has been developed in the pack after this 6N. Our back 5 could be at the strongest its ever been in terms of depth ( I realise we have had better players, O'Connell etc. ) When you look at the depth chart its unbelievable. Loose head is probably the main long termm worry :

LH : Healy, Kilcoyne, Byrne, O'Sullivan, Dooley, Cronin ( next gen : Milne, Wycherley )
HK : Herring, Kelleher, Heffernan, Scannell ( next gen : Sheehan, Tom Stewart )
TH : Furlong, Porter, O'Toole, Ryan, Bealham ( next gen : Knox, Salanoa, Clarkson )
SR : Ryan, Henderson, Beirne, Baird, Dillane, Thornbury ( next gen : Ahern, Dunne, Izuchukwu )
Blindside : Beirne, Ruddock, O'Donoghue, ( next gen : McCann, Soroka )
Openside : Connors, VDF, O'Mahony, Leavy, Murphy ( next gen : Penny, Hodnett )
No.8 : Doris, Conan, Deegan ( next gen : Kendellen, McCann )
Nicely done thanks.

Three points of difference. Roux is in the SR mix after Beirne/Baird. Murphy is a blindside through and through (possible POM too). Coombes is missing from your 8s. Before Deegan given he has been out almost all year.
Thanks, I remembered Coombes after I had written it but yeah he's definitely ahead of Deegan over the course of the last year. I think Dillane & Thornbury are in better form than Roux, I would have them as my starting Connacht SR.

That's Jordi I'm talking about, not Josh. And I don't see POM going back to 6. I think the game has moved towards a bigger 6 in the Beirne, PSDT mould. I think POM will be at 7 from here on.
I had totally forgotten about Jordi! Do you not think Josh deserves a listing after O'Donoghue?

As for POM as a 7 from now on. He hasn't proved to my eyes yet that he has moved successfully from 6 to 7. In the Autumn of his career he isn't getting any faster and certainly does not have what Connors, VDF, Penny, Curry, Tipuric or Watson bring to the position. I am expecting Leavy to pivot to 6 given his elasticity has to have been compromised by his injuries, his pace was always in between classic 6 and 7 pace.

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