England v Ireland 21 November 15:00

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cormac
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Re: England v Ireland 21 November 15:00

Post by cormac »

If at first you don't succeed keep trying the same shite. World War I approach again from Ireland.

He was far from the only issue today but Ross had a real stinker. Taking static ball and just shoveling it on with zero threat to gain line isn't going to cut it.
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Re: England v Ireland 21 November 15:00

Post by Atlas »

cormac wrote:If at first you don't succeed keep trying the same shite. World War I approach again from Ireland.

He was far from the only issue today but Ross had a real stinker. Taking static ball and just shoveling it on with zero threat to gain line isn't going to cut it.
He was also so so deep, it gave the outside backs no chance

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Re: England v Ireland 21 November 15:00

Post by wixfjord »

I think Ross isn't athletic enough for this level unfortunately. Just doesn't have the attacking threat and never really has.

Shocking performance overall. Lineout poor, attack poor, some braindead decision making (what was JGP at kicking that?).

Doris probably the shining light for us.

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blaker
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Re: England v Ireland 21 November 15:00

Post by blaker »

That’s the sort of performance that tends to put a fairly hard ceiling on a player from Ross B. He was really really deep and really really passive - just shovelling ball out unthinkingly and telegraphed.
Keenan over ran the kick for the try but was on a no winner there - that aside i thought he was good. I don’t think he is physically big enough though....
Earls and POM were good.
Doris, Ryan, Porter kept on trucking but were running into brick walls.
Farrel and Aki were screwed by Byrne but Farrell had a bad habit of running lateral/away from his pack near the line in second half.
JGP was playing behind a smashed pack so I have a lot of sympathy but could have been better. Kelleher had a bad day

Despite all the above - and with the exception of Byrne - it’s hard to look at individuals given the game plan and approach and lineput was almost designed to screw us badly
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Re: England v Ireland 21 November 15:00

Post by dropkick »

Only saw the second half. Shoot themselves in the foot again and again.


and 2 dinks over the England defensive line. Scored 1 try, should have scored another

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Re: England v Ireland 21 November 15:00

Post by CiaranIrl »

wixfjord wrote:
November 21st, 2020, 5:08 pm
I think Ross isn't athletic enough for this level unfortunately. Just doesn't have the attacking threat and never really has.

Shocking performance overall. Lineout poor, attack poor, some braindead decision making (what was JGP at kicking that?).

Doris probably the shining light for us.
Porter too. Earls maybe.

Lineout was a shambles. Aki and Farrell don't seem to have an ounce of creativity between them. Back 3 was decent under a lot of pressure. Ross Byrne was pretty bad. You just can't just stand deep and shovel it on like that anymore. The game has moved on.
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Re: England v Ireland 21 November 15:00

Post by Keith »

wixfjord wrote:
November 21st, 2020, 5:08 pm
I think Ross isn't athletic enough for this level unfortunately. Just doesn't have the attacking threat and never really has.

Shocking performance overall. Lineout poor, attack poor, some braindead decision making (what was JGP at kicking that?).

Doris probably the shining light for us.
It would be nice if he could get a run of games against half decent level of opposition so he could bed in and build up to international rugby. How can a guy thrive when you're just thrown in against England at Twickenham, his confidence must be shot at this level. We know he is absolute quality at euro level and he may not be good enough for this level but the coaches really didn't give him much of a chance. The coaches really do have a lot to answer for here. I mean playing Sexton against perhaps the worse Welsh team in the pro era in a friendly was absolute lunacy, when we currently have no other reliable options at 10.

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Re: England v Ireland 21 November 15:00

Post by Ruckedtobits »

Criticising a team who collected and retained as much possession as we did is non-productive unless it is accompanied but suggestions as to what we can do to improve, or how we can use our possession and territory more effectively.

Anybody who doesn't understand why Sexton is our first choice outhalf and why Henshaw and Ringrose our first-choice centres should be condemned to re-watching that game until they do.

England have a pack of fowards that only S Africa can dominate. We made them work hard today but they were always in command.

England have the most effective defence in world rugby and Jones will have been delighted that they had such a workout today. Ireland have to figure out how we can get over, under or around that defence, because we don't yet appear to have the players to go throught it.

England defensive line-out was magnificent. Ireland attacking line-out was a shambles. When we called an early 4-man line-out I was delighted, but we bottled it by not calling regular, rehearsed 2, 3, 4 or 5 man line-outs where we knew what was coming next. We could not execute a full line-out in attack except by throwing to 2.

Neither Aki nor Farrell are good passers and it showed. Byrne R is not an international standard No 10 at present. Earls was excellent as was Stockdale during his limited appearance. Keenan looked and played like a good full-back despite the first try. Lowe had limited opportunity but discovered the difference in kicking to an international back three.

England played like a top 4 international team and they were pleased to have won a tough teest match. We didn't get slaughtered as we have done since 2018. But we have a distance to go to become competitive against this England and the solution will not be going through them.

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Re: England v Ireland 21 November 15:00

Post by Dexter »

We'll probably hear that Ireland were overpowered and physically bullied by England again, but we were not at all IMO.
Too many shoot in foot mistakes and we didn't look particularly well coached. Plus we were playing #1 side in the world, in their stadium, with a weakened side.
It's very frustrating watching, as we know they're better than that...
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Re: England v Ireland 21 November 15:00

Post by OTT »

Ruckedtobits wrote:
November 21st, 2020, 5:41 pm
Criticising a team who collected and retained as much possession as we did is non-productive unless it is accompanied but suggestions as to what we can do to improve, or how we can use our possession and territory more effectively.

Anybody who doesn't understand why Sexton is our first choice outhalf and why Henshaw and Ringrose our first-choice centres should be condemned to re-watching that game until they do.

England have a pack of fowards that only S Africa can dominate. We made them work hard today but they were always in command.

England have the most effective defence in world rugby and Jones will have been delighted that they had such a workout today. Ireland have to figure out how we can get over, under or around that defence, because we don't yet appear to have the players to go throught it.

England defensive line-out was magnificent. Ireland attacking line-out was a shambles. When we called an early 4-man line-out I was delighted, but we bottled it by not calling regular, rehearsed 2, 3, 4 or 5 man line-outs where we knew what was coming next. We could not execute a full line-out in attack except by throwing to 2.

Neither Aki nor Farrell are good passers and it showed. Byrne R is not an international standard No 10 at present. Earls was excellent as was Stockdale during his limited appearance. Keenan looked and played like a good full-back despite the first try. Lowe had limited opportunity but discovered the difference in kicking to an international back three.

England played like a top 4 international team and they were pleased to have won a tough teest match. We didn't get slaughtered as we have done since 2018. But we have a distance to go to become competitive against this England and the solution will not be going through them.
Yeah this is very close to my feeling on it. What I’ve read for the last few weeks is how England were going to break us physically and get loads of easy points off the back of that, it never happened and we left lots of points behind, one of their scores even came off a 7 point chance for us. It doesn’t excuse our dreadful lineout (we are running out of hookers to pin it on), it doesn’t excuse our very limited attack (I thought Farrell must have been under orders to truck it up against Wales he did it so much when easy passes were on). I think we can be a lot better, I think the effort and desire is clear to see and with that we will get better we have to.
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Re: England v Ireland 21 November 15:00

Post by wixfjord »

Keith wrote:
November 21st, 2020, 5:23 pm
wixfjord wrote:
November 21st, 2020, 5:08 pm
I think Ross isn't athletic enough for this level unfortunately. Just doesn't have the attacking threat and never really has.

Shocking performance overall. Lineout poor, attack poor, some braindead decision making (what was JGP at kicking that?).

Doris probably the shining light for us.
It would be nice if he could get a run of games against half decent level of opposition so he could bed in and build up to international rugby. How can a guy thrive when you're just thrown in against England at Twickenham, his confidence must be shot at this level. We know he is absolute quality at euro level and he may not be good enough for this level but the coaches really didn't give him much of a chance. The coaches really do have a lot to answer for here. I mean playing Sexton against perhaps the worse Welsh team in the pro era in a friendly was absolute lunacy, when we currently have no other reliable options at 10.
It's a fair point, but you could also say that in both games against England it has shown up that he finds it hard to up it to that level. As said above, you can't just stand and deliver or expect kicks to threaten against a top five team in the world.

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Re: England v Ireland 21 November 15:00

Post by wixfjord »

Aki really flatters to deceive at 12. He can be so one paced at times and adds nothing to the attack outside him.

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Re: England v Ireland 21 November 15:00

Post by Ruckedtobits »

BTW, English 'neck-roll tackles' and the majority of their 'jackal turnovers' are illegal. What Ref (or TMO) is going to have the bottle to call either and risk the wrath and tongue of Jones.

Underhill & Itoje inevitably go onto their forearms first when poaching ball.

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Re: England v Ireland 21 November 15:00

Post by Atlas »

wixfjord wrote:Aki really flatters to deceive at 12. He can be so one paced at times and adds nothing to the attack outside him.
To be fair, neither does Henshaw really. Same with Farrell at 13. They are 3 similar players with the same major weakness, none can distribute the ball.

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Re: England v Ireland 21 November 15:00

Post by Peg Leg »

CiaranIrl wrote:
November 21st, 2020, 5:22 pm
wixfjord wrote:
November 21st, 2020, 5:08 pm
I think Ross isn't athletic enough for this level unfortunately. Just doesn't have the attacking threat and never really has.

Shocking performance overall. Lineout poor, attack poor, some braindead decision making (what was JGP at kicking that?).

Doris probably the shining light for us.
Porter too. Earls maybe.

Lineout was a shambles. Aki and Farrell don't seem to have an ounce of creativity between them. Back 3 was decent under a lot of pressure. Ross Byrne was pretty bad. You just can't just stand deep and shovel it on like that anymore. The game has moved on.
Did not think Aki had much about him today, but in his defense Ross may as well have been throwing English players at him
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Re: England v Ireland 21 November 15:00

Post by munster#1 »

Ruckedtobits wrote:
November 21st, 2020, 6:34 pm
BTW, English 'neck-roll tackles' and the majority of their 'jackal turnovers' are illegal. What Ref (or TMO) is going to have the bottle to call either and risk the wrath and tongue of Jones.

Underhill & Itoje inevitably go onto their forearms first when poaching ball.
In rugby nothing is illegal until it is penalised.
England’s ability to do stuff and get away with it is commendable.
Leinster are similar in that aspect, and that is a compliment not a dig.

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Re: England v Ireland 21 November 15:00

Post by hugonaut »

I agree with a lot of the comments about how individual players played, but would disagree a little with the overall negative mood.

At the moment, England are really, really good. And that was an extremely strong and experienced English side – Launchbury for Lawes is a scratch at lock, and outside of that they were only missing Tuilagi and one of Watson/Nowell on the wing from the strongest possible XV they can start. They've got a lot of size and talent, but they've got a lot of stability and experience too.

We're at a different stage of development compared to England. They've a seasoned coaching staff, we've a new one. They're a coherent, settled team, while we have an experimental selection [just look at the number of caps]. They're largely injury free at the moment, and we're struggling in that regard. They're also better than us - they've got a higher number of good players, they've more experienced units, and they've a better coach ... and in those regards they're better than pretty much every team in the world.

So from my perspective, this was nowhere near a 50-50 game, and it is no surprise at all that we lost.

I was happy with how we stuck in the game throughout, which I thought we did better than in any of our last three games against them. CJ had a very weird off-day, but in general our pack's effort level and physicality was excellent, and certainly a huge improvement on the last time we played them.

With regards to how we attacked, we picked an outhalf who can't run and two centres who can't pass or kick. That is obviously a binary judgment, but if you needed it on a cue card, that's what I'd write. We were always going to be predictable. To a large degree, we were limited by who was available for selection.

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Re: England v Ireland 21 November 15:00

Post by Keith »

wixfjord wrote:
November 21st, 2020, 6:10 pm
Keith wrote:
November 21st, 2020, 5:23 pm
wixfjord wrote:
November 21st, 2020, 5:08 pm
I think Ross isn't athletic enough for this level unfortunately. Just doesn't have the attacking threat and never really has.

Shocking performance overall. Lineout poor, attack poor, some braindead decision making (what was JGP at kicking that?).

Doris probably the shining light for us.
It would be nice if he could get a run of games against half decent level of opposition so he could bed in and build up to international rugby. How can a guy thrive when you're just thrown in against England at Twickenham, his confidence must be shot at this level. We know he is absolute quality at euro level and he may not be good enough for this level but the coaches really didn't give him much of a chance. The coaches really do have a lot to answer for here. I mean playing Sexton against perhaps the worse Welsh team in the pro era in a friendly was absolute lunacy, when we currently have no other reliable options at 10.
It's a fair point, but you could also say that in both games against England it has shown up that he finds it hard to up it to that level. As said above, you can't just stand and deliver or expect kicks to threaten against a top five team in the world.
Yeah true, like I said Byrne may very well not be up to this level. But at the same time you can't just throw a new 10 in behind a pack being decimated (twice now) in Twickenham and expect him to flourish. Any fly half would find it tough out there today. I don't think a lot Irish rugby fans realise how dire our 10 situation is and how Sexton is covering that up. I mean just look at who was the replacement FH today, somebody who knew he couldn't get anywhere near an England squad so chanced his arm over here. We have no chance.

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Re: England v Ireland 21 November 15:00

Post by Dexter »

munster#1 wrote:
November 21st, 2020, 6:48 pm
Ruckedtobits wrote:
November 21st, 2020, 6:34 pm
BTW, English 'neck-roll tackles' and the majority of their 'jackal turnovers' are illegal. What Ref (or TMO) is going to have the bottle to call either and risk the wrath and tongue of Jones.

Underhill & Itoje inevitably go onto their forearms first when poaching ball.
In rugby nothing is illegal until it is penalised.
England’s ability to do stuff and get away with it is commendable.
Leinster are similar in that aspect, and that is a compliment not a dig.
Except that it ruins the game. Negative rugby is being rewarded by law interpretation and the failure to officiate properly and consistently. I can totally understand how someone who's not "into" rugby wouldn't bother their arse watching a lot of the cr@p on show at the moment.
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Re: England v Ireland 21 November 15:00

Post by Logorrhea »

I don't know. I don't get all the negativity. I thought we played what is at the moment the best team in the world, away from home, under-strength and with an inexperienced young team and we were competitive. At one stage the game looked like it could be a 30-40 point drubbing, but it wasn't. It could also have been closer.

- For all the talk of English dominance, they didn't leave much out on the pitch. We defended really well.
- We managed to find parity in the scrum, and addressed issues with the lineout. Once we fixed the lineout we instantly looked more competitive.
- The back three got peppered by the English kicking game, and I thought they managed it really well. England got little change from Keenan at 15. He covered the ground and managed the high ball so well.

Can I also say, the relentless negativity from the RTE commentating team was impossible to sit through. I changed the channel after about 30 minutes.

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