England v Ireland 21 November 15:00

[sunshiner1]

Kelleher worries me at 2. A lot of our chances are going to be set-piece orientated and he had a mare last time out. Herring might be less dynamic around the park but at least he can throw a ball straight.

[hugonaut]

That's an incredibly strong English starting pack and a great test for our lads.

England are World Cup finalists, Six Nations champions, have beaten us convincingly three times in a row and are at home in this fixture.

Realistically, they are a better team than us, maybe a different level to us. However, once somebody is ahead of you, you can target them. That's how we should be using this English team, as a target. Take loads of shots at them – tactically, physically and mentally.

If we lose again, so what? We already know they're better than us at the moment, and it's a Mickey Mouse tournament.

[munster#1]

I see that the Independent have pick up a discussion that was had on here with regards to foreign players.

Interestingly 1/3 of the Irish starting 15 are players that were signed by the IRFU with a view to play for Ireland.
That is not a good thing for any international team.

[SaS]

Shock: 15 players qualified to play for Ireland are picked to play for Ireland.

[Ruckedtobits]

Rewatching the Wales game and horrified by the early penalties in the second half but also by Lenihan's commentary "he has to release the ball" in reference to both Keenan and Porter. In both instances the Irish player was prevented from placing the ball by the Welsh tackler. Has the Law, or interpretation changed?

Up till this season a tackled player had the right to place the ball immediately on being tackled. If the tackler prevented this action it was a penalty to the player in possession. Last Saturday the French ref did not apply this on numerous occasions, notably in the second half. Has it changed?

[ronk]

I see that the Independent have pick up a discussion that was had on here with regards to foreign players.

Interestingly 1/3 of the Irish starting 15 are players that were signed by the IRFU with a view to play for Ireland.
That is not a good thing for any international team.

It's 6, not 5 (I count Farrell). But it's also 6 young Leinster players and 3 other guys who have been around forever (Healy, POM, Earls). The story here is the lack of elite talent coming from 3 provinces. Even of the older players, only Healy and Sexton are secure.

If we look at Roux, Stander, Park, Aki, Farrell and Lowe it's striking that all of them were signed because they are different from what was available at the time, not just better. Except Stander, an abrasive and hard working 8 with limited ball handling and slightly undersized is actually the prototypical Munster 8.

Stander is probably the only one who makes the team with everyone fit and at full strength.

[RichardP]

I see that the Independent have pick up a discussion that was had on here with regards to foreign players.

Interestingly 1/3 of the Irish starting 15 are players that were signed by the IRFU with a view to play for Ireland.
That is not a good thing for any international team.

It's 6, not 5 (I count Farrell). But it's also 6 young Leinster players and 3 other guys who have been around forever (Healy, POM, Earls). The story here is the lack of elite talent coming from 3 provinces. Even of the older players, only Healy and Sexton are secure.

If we look at Roux, Stander, Park, Aki, Farrell and Lowe it's striking that all of them were signed because they are different from what was available at the time, not just better. Except Stander, an abrasive and hard working 8 with limited ball handling and slightly undersized is actually the prototypical Munster 8.

Stander is probably the only one who makes the team with everyone fit and at full strength.

Where is it that you think Farrell is from?

[ronk]

That's an incredibly strong English starting pack and a great test for our lads.

England are World Cup finalists, Six Nations champions, have beaten us convincingly three times in a row and are at home in this fixture.

Realistically, they are a better team than us, maybe a different level to us. However, once somebody is ahead of you, you can target them. That's how we should be using this English team, as a target. Take loads of shots at them – tactically, physically and mentally.

If we lose again, so what? We already know they're better than us at the moment, and it's a Mickey Mouse tournament.

This will be the big test of Keenan's progression. England have used clever tactical kicking from multiple backs to attack us. Keenan has been impressive but hasn't been heralded as a future star so much. England will see an inexperienced fullback and they'll also try to expose Lowe and they previously targetted Earls in the air. If Keenan can hold the backfield together with Murray and Sexton (by far the primary tactical kickers for Ireland) away against probable targetting then it will have a huge impact on how the potential of his Irish future is measured.

[Ruckedtobits]

That's an incredibly strong English starting pack and a great test for our lads.

England are World Cup finalists, Six Nations champions, have beaten us convincingly three times in a row and are at home in this fixture.

Realistically, they are a better team than us, maybe a different level to us. However, once somebody is ahead of you, you can target them. That's how we should be using this English team, as a target. Take loads of shots at them – tactically, physically and mentally.

If we lose again, so what? We already know they're better than us at the moment, and it's a Mickey Mouse tournament.

This will be the big test of Keenan's progression. England have used clever tactical kicking from multiple backs to attack us. Keenan has been impressive but hasn't been heralded as a future star so much. England will see an inexperienced fullback and they'll also try to expose Lowe and they previously targetted Earls in the air. If Keenan can hold the backfield together with Murray and Sexton (by far the primary tactical kickers for Ireland) away against probable targetting then it will have a huge impact on how the potential of his Irish future is measured.

+1
A bit test but also a big opportunity and Catt, in particular, and Farrell will have prepared him well for the examination confident that he has the ability to pass with honours.

[munster#1]

Shock: 15 players qualified to play for Ireland are picked to play for Ireland.

Yes they are all qualified. But these are players that Ireland side to play for an international club team.

1 or 2 such players to fill a gap is one thing, but 1/3 is Ireland moving away from being a national team.

[Laighin Break]

I see that the Independent have pick up a discussion that was had on here with regards to foreign players.

Interestingly 1/3 of the Irish starting 15 are players that were signed by the IRFU with a view to play for Ireland.
That is not a good thing for any international team.

I'm guessing he means

It's 6, not 5 (I count Farrell). But it's also 6 young Leinster players and 3 other guys who have been around forever (Healy, POM, Earls). The story here is the lack of elite talent coming from 3 provinces. Even of the older players, only Healy and Sexton are secure.

If we look at Roux, Stander, Park, Aki, Farrell and Lowe it's striking that all of them were signed because they are different from what was available at the time, not just better. Except Stander, an abrasive and hard working 8 with limited ball handling and slightly undersized is actually the prototypical Munster 8.

Stander is probably the only one who makes the team with everyone fit and at full strength.

Where is it that you think Farrell is from?

I'm guessing he means that Farrell is also a player that was "signed by the IRFU with a view to play for Ireland", which is obviously a ridiculous point as he was eligible to play for Ireland when in Grenoble. The IRFU brought him back as they did with Sexton, Beirne, Madigan etc as they want Irish players in Ireland.

[Laighin Break]

I'm guessing he means

It's 6, not 5 (I count Farrell). But it's also 6 young Leinster players and 3 other guys who have been around forever (Healy, POM, Earls). The story here is the lack of elite talent coming from 3 provinces. Even of the older players, only Healy and Sexton are secure.

If we look at Roux, Stander, Park, Aki, Farrell and Lowe it's striking that all of them were signed because they are different from what was available at the time, not just better. Except Stander, an abrasive and hard working 8 with limited ball handling and slightly undersized is actually the prototypical Munster 8.

Stander is probably the only one who makes the team with everyone fit and at full strength.

Where is it that you think Farrell is from?

I'm guessing he means that Farrell is also a player that was "signed by the IRFU with a view to play for Ireland", which is obviously a ridiculous point as he was eligible to play for Ireland when in Grenoble. The IRFU brought him back as they did with Sexton, Beirne, Madigan etc as they want top Irish players playing in Ireland.

[RichardP]

I'm guessing he means

It's 6, not 5 (I count Farrell). But it's also 6 young Leinster players and 3 other guys who have been around forever (Healy, POM, Earls). The story here is the lack of elite talent coming from 3 provinces. Even of the older players, only Healy and Sexton are secure.

If we look at Roux, Stander, Park, Aki, Farrell and Lowe it's striking that all of them were signed because they are different from what was available at the time, not just better. Except Stander, an abrasive and hard working 8 with limited ball handling and slightly undersized is actually the prototypical Munster 8.

Stander is probably the only one who makes the team with everyone fit and at full strength.

Where is it that you think Farrell is from?

I'm guessing he means that Farrell is also a player that was "signed by the IRFU with a view to play for Ireland", which is obviously a ridiculous point as he was eligible to play for Ireland when in Grenoble. The IRFU brought him back as they did with Sexton, Beirne, Madigan etc as they want Irish players in Ireland.

That’s a fair explanation, unless he mistakenly thinks Farrell isn’t actually Irish?

[ronk]

he means that Farrell is also a player that was "signed by the IRFU with a view to play for Ireland", which is obviously a ridiculous point as he was eligible to play for Ireland when in Grenoble. The IRFU brought him back as they did with Sexton, Beirne, Madigan etc as they want Irish players in Ireland.

I get that. I was using the literal definition and making the point more about inadequacies in player development.

Even for Leinster there are 2 ex project players signed in positions where we haven’t been good at developing talent. Plus we released Beirne. And we signed Roux and didn’t want him.

[Xanthippe]

he means that Farrell is also a player that was "signed by the IRFU with a view to play for Ireland", which is obviously a ridiculous point as he was eligible to play for Ireland when in Grenoble. The IRFU brought him back as they did with Sexton, Beirne, Madigan etc as they want Irish players in Ireland.

I get that. I was using the literal definition and making the point more about inadequacies in player development.

Even for Leinster there are 2 ex project players signed in positions where we haven’t been good at developing talent. Plus we released Beirne. And we Joe signed Roux and MOC didn’t want know how to use him.

[Twist]

I think the decision to let Roux go looks poor now

[Laighin Break]

I think the decision to let Roux go looks poor now

I don't know. If Leinster held on to Roux, would we have seen Fardy join? Certainly would have been less likely.

I think Roux's being talked up a bit much after a good performance last week.

[Ruckedtobits]

We wouldn't have signed Fardy if we had had Roux and he had developed as Joe hoped. However, that is a little bit of if my aunt had balls, she'd be my uncle'.

Roux was released with Cooney on loan to Connacht and both were bad decisions.

Roux was progressing reasonably but pressure was applied from the top to fast-track Kleyn ahead of him for RWC2019. We know how that transpired and it's now history. Roux is now worth his place but his skill-set includes scrum, maul, lift and carry but not jump. His selection requires inclusion of a jumping back-row and Saturday will be a good assessment of that compromise.

[Ruckedtobits]

The focus put on Porter by Jones is indicative of a small concern and attempt to direct the focus of the Ref for Saturday. Personally I'm delighted and hope that Porter, Roux, Stander can stuff M Vunipola and launchbury at least once in first three scrums.

As for the UN crack, what should we expect from Jones who considers pre-match banter as part of the contest.

[domhnallj]

Shock: 15 players qualified to play for Ireland are picked to play for Ireland.

Yes they are all qualified. But these are players that Ireland side to play for an international club team.

1 or 2 such players to fill a gap is one thing, but 1/3 is Ireland moving away from being a national team.

I have heard our cousins in the north many times and very deliberately refer to the Irish team as the international team.