England v Ireland 21 November 15:00

[Experimental]

You cant fault us for effort, we did make good ground at times, but as others have said Byrne stood far too deep and made it easy defending for England, Burns should have been starting, imo he is a much better player than Ross Byrne and is far more used to making things happen from behind a beaten up set piece. Chris Farrell had a good game as did Ryan, Doris and Keenan, the rest were beaten up. Our main concern remains our appauling lineout, our second biggest concern good breakdown/support/cleanout work, our third biggest concern getting Leavy, Furlong and Baird into the pack and Sexton and Ringrose back into the backline, and even with all that we'll need to be tactically a lot smarter to beat England. Jonny May scored one of the best individual scores of all time and is a quality, quality player. Theres a lot to like about this English team, as much as I hate to say it, they deserve to be fawned over.

[Gearzbox2]

Usually keep the posts on here for the blue section but I’ll give my two cents on yesterday

Forwards
Cian Healy unfortunately is waning at that level, bar a couple of carries early on was invisible...problem is no clear successor
Kelleher, incredibly shaky, yes lineout calling was poor but he clearly overthrew 2 and was picked off with another...seems to be getting afforded a easy ride...would Best, Cronin etc have been afforded this I doubt it
Porter, animal man to go for 80 mins but that says it all on our back up really
Second rows dominated really bar a couple of big carries from JR
Doris and CJ were given a lesson yesterday and POM was ok, not a 7 for me

JGP showed his inexperience and RB needed to play flatter but wasn’t the day for it
Farrell and Aki are a poor mans Ringrose/Hemshaw

Lowe largely ineffective and won’t enjoy his showing for effort to get back for May try

[wixfjord]

Yep, Healy is pretty clearly on the wind down. Just doesn't have the impact that he used to have in games. Which is to be expected.

Don't know how 'Doris was given a lesson yesterday' though. He was our best performer by far in the pack.

[Dave Cahill]

The problem isn't the deckchairs.

[Atlas]

For me, someone who is getting an easy ride is Simon Easterby.

Our maul has been quite poor for a while and the lineout hasn't been rock solid for longer than that.

We need to see a solid lineout performance and a strong mauling performance from the pack by end of next 6 nations or I'd say he'll come under big pressure.

[Gearzbox2]

For me, someone who is getting an easy ride is Simon Easterby.

Our maul has been quite poor for a while and the lineout hasn't been rock solid for longer than that.

We need to see a solid lineout performance and a strong mauling performance from the pack by end of next 6 nations or I'd say he'll come under big pressure.

I’d agree with you to a point but
Hard to get any maul platform going when you can’t win the possession
Kelleher just overthrew that one that led to Mays try which was 15m out
Against wales he also overthrew 5m out from the line
It’s hard to get your maul going when possession coughed up so easily and in prime position
But I hear what your saying especially in second half where we didn’t get anything from 3 drives we had 5m out...

On the other side I thought our maul defence yesterday was pretty good
Huge turnover at HT

[Logorrhea]

I think the speed with which JGP and Byrne are being blamed for the performance is disappointing. I'd expect it from our southern brethren (munster players were awesome, Leinster players were bad yadda yadda yadda) but people here don't seem to be fully considering the opposition, the speed of the ball, and the pressure being applied by the England defense. A full new Zealand team struggled with that yet here we are writing off a couple of players after they face it. England were on it yesterday. Defensively they were as good as they have been.

Byrne standing closer to that defense is not some magic silver f%~king bullet. It would have been suicide.

Also, the big positive from the bench wasn't necessary Burns for Byrne, it was Herring for Kelleher. Decent lineout ball for a team that relies on set piece, made a huge difference to us.

[wixfjord]

Byrne was really poor yesterday. I mean there's no point in saying otherwise.

He seemed to shrink under the pressure, added nothing in attack besides shovelling ball out. Even the way he was receiving the ball made it easy for England. He had his hips turned in and facing towards the 9 meaning he had to turn to deliver the ball to 12, rather than open and ready to run onto the ball.

It's not just about standing closer to the line, although combined with our lack of go forward, the depth he was coming from meant we were losing 2/3 yards before anything happened due to Curry/Underhill hunting him down.

Clearly there are major mitigating factors that our pack were being taken apart and our 12/13 are both one paced.

I also don't think anyone is 'writing off' Ross Byrne after one bad performance. He has pretty consistently shown he can step up to a certain level but also that he probably doesn't have the athleticism or attacking game for top level test rugby.

[MylesNaGapoleen]

I know Mr. Farrell is only a few games into his tenure but I do hope we get to the point where I don't feel "we're better than this" after every IRL V ENG game. felt the same after the salarycens quarters and for the last few encounters with Eddies lot.

watched it again and take back what I said. we did well against a very good side, albeit not their best. leaving aside Mays great try we were in the mix.
onwards and upwards.

[Peg Leg]

I'm happy enough. We should never accept losing but at least have a bit of fight and front up. Unlike the last 3 matches against England, they did those things.


Hopefully it provides Farrell with a clearer picture of where Ireland are at. It should! Once again England looked better coached and they've developed a style now that involves kicking long and defending aggressively. Irelands style of play plays right into their hands.


Irelands possession based game plan isnt working. It's low percentage rugby that is predictable and designed to beat weaker teams. The more you have the ball these days the more likely you'll get turned over because of the new ruck interpretations. So they need to move the ball around quicker or try more variety of kicks. The try came from a chip over the defense and Farrell should have scored another from a kick through.
Bigger teams are slower to turn.


Byrne and Aki are too predictable or slow. There's a reason Carty got picked ahead of Byrne for the world cup. Aki's ball carrying doesn't really work against that quality of opposition. Farrell was having some success because he was carrying wider against English backs.


​​​​​​Irish players were being lined up to be smashed far too often. That's where Farrell and his coaches will need to come up with some innovations. They're not too far off imo but just need to try more kicks in behind the defensive wall, move the ball faster, have a bit more threat and creativity all around the 9, 10, 12 zone. In other words have more variety in attack.

I was thinking during the game it would have been good to have Cooney and Frawley on the bench to respectively play what's in front of them as the game broke up and take the ball flatter.

I found myself thinking of Frawley also. Or a someone to fulfil that second pivot role.

[Peg Leg]

The problem isn't the deckchairs.

Nor is it the iceberg

[ronk]

The problem isn't the deckchairs.

Nor is it the iceberg

It’s the water.

[cormac]

Byrne was really poor yesterday. I mean there's no point in saying otherwise.

He seemed to shrink under the pressure, added nothing in attack besides shovelling ball out. Even the way he was receiving the ball made it easy for England. He had his hips turned in and facing towards the 9 meaning he had to turn to deliver the ball to 12, rather than open and ready to run onto the ball.

It's not just about standing closer to the line, although combined with our lack of go forward, the depth he was coming from meant we were losing 2/3 yards before anything happened due to Curry/Underhill hunting him down.

Clearly there are major mitigating factors that our pack were being taken apart and our 12/13 are both one paced.

I also don't think anyone is 'writing off' Ross Byrne after one bad performance. He has pretty consistently shown he can step up to a certain level but also that he probably doesn't have the athleticism or attacking game for top level test rugby.

I find the fact that he was left on for 72 minutes a bit of a concern with regard to the coaching team. As you say, there's no hiding the fact that he was playing poorly, so why not take him off and give Burns a decent chance to show what he could do? They'd no issue with substituting Gibson-Park after 50 minutes.

[munster#1]

Byrne was really poor yesterday. I mean there's no point in saying otherwise.

He seemed to shrink under the pressure, added nothing in attack besides shovelling ball out. Even the way he was receiving the ball made it easy for England. He had his hips turned in and facing towards the 9 meaning he had to turn to deliver the ball to 12, rather than open and ready to run onto the ball.

It's not just about standing closer to the line, although combined with our lack of go forward, the depth he was coming from meant we were losing 2/3 yards before anything happened due to Curry/Underhill hunting him down.

Clearly there are major mitigating factors that our pack were being taken apart and our 12/13 are both one paced.

I also don't think anyone is 'writing off' Ross Byrne after one bad performance. He has pretty consistently shown he can step up to a certain level but also that he probably doesn't have the athleticism or attacking game for top level test rugby.

I find the fact that he was left on for 72 minutes a bit of a concern with regard to the coaching team. As you say, there's no hiding the fact that he was playing poorly, so why not take him off and give Burns a decent chance to show what he could do? They'd no issue with substituting Gibson-Park after 50 minutes.

I wonder has the fact that Ireland’s head coach has never been a head coach before got anything to do with it?

I’m sure he has had input into getting out the Shepard’s hook throughout his career, but perhaps he hasn’t developed that part of his coaching game?

Generally an international coach would have some head coaching pedigree from the club game, where they would learn bench management playing week after week. Where you would be able to see that a particular player should come off right away, or when you need to stick with a player, as they are getting into the game.

[Flash Gordon]

For me, someone who is getting an easy ride is Simon Easterby.

Our maul has been quite poor for a while and the lineout hasn't been rock solid for longer than that.

We need to see a solid lineout performance and a strong mauling performance from the pack by end of next 6 nations or I'd say he'll come under big pressure.

I'd agree with that our set piece, the breakdown and the maul are really poor.

That isn't everything though, we are approaching the point where we have an outhalf crisis. Sexton's getting on and Ross Byrne was so far out of this depth this weekend it wasn't funny. Really felt for the guy. Not sure about Burns either but he's a better option. Our second best outhalf is probably playing for London Irish and we need to press the accelerator on Ed Byrne's development.

Overall we looked like a really poorly coached team with no discernable game plan, we had nearly 70% of possession and looked absolutely clueless with the ball.

On the back of that you'd wonder whether any Irish players will challenge for a starting Lions spot.

That being said, that England back row and Itoje are incredibly impressive.

[brenno]

Everybody seems to agree Byrne had a poor game, staying too deep 10m behind the scrum/line out/ruck and the shoveling the ball on to Aki another 10m behind him. But the fact that he was left on for 72 minutes suggests he was playing to coach's instructions - and if this is the case then Catt has a lot to answer for, just as much as Easterby has a lot to answer for the unholy mess that was the line out.

Slection was poor - evidenced by the improvement that came about when the substitutions were made, Burns showed more spark in 8 minutes on the field than Byrne did in 72, Murray looked more like his old self apart from one dumb ankle length pass to Henderson, Stockdale was closer to the Stockdale of a couple of years ago. Midfield and Ringrose and Henshaw were badly missed

God knows what Farrell will do against Georgia. Presumably whatever sins Cooney has committed will still leave him out in the cold while JGP - at best 5th best 9 in the country after Murray, Cooney, Marmion, Casey (and maybe even Blade) - will be tried again. If he is tried again a team like Georgia then he better turn it on a bit.

Hopefully he'll start Burns and 10 and see what he can do given 60-70 mins, but is there an argument (even at their callow stage) of putting Ben Healy or Harry Byrne on the bench and given 15-20 mins to see if they can step up. I know the opposition Leinster and Munster have faced in Pro14 has been cr@p so far this season but I'd have no issue given either an outing. Likewise Casey off the bench at 9.

Dunno know what the internal politics are, but should the IRFU be having a quite with Van Graan and Cullen to speed up the progress of Casey, Healy and H Byrne - giving some serious time in the Xmas-New Year Pro14 interpros when the intensity will be a lot higher than playing the Welsh dross.

Have to have a longer think about what I'd like to see in the pack, but of the 8 who started against England, only Porter, POM and Doris really stood out though Herring and Bealham did reasonably well when they came on. Work obviously needed too on Kelleher's lineout, but again hard to know who to blame for the line out problems - the throw, the lifting, the calls .

[nc6000]

Maybe Sexton should have been rested or benched for the Wales game to keep him fit for Twickenham especially as we have no real alternative to him at present. Wales have been poor all year so that was a good opportunity to give one of the less experienced 10s a run out in a home game.

[goforward]

As Murray Kinsella wrote in the 42 today, look at how deep Sexton played from in Twickenham last Feb. Pretty much the same as Ross Byrne on Saturday. Why would Byrne have been allowed play 70 mins and with no new instructions at half time if he wasn't playing to the game-plan they wanted executed? Byrne has changed up his game substantially in the two years for Leinster and he has been taking it on with ball in hand and playing flat to the line. Most recent example the Pro 14 Final a few weeks back. Sometimes you need to look beyond the obvious to really assess the situation and before the rush to write off good players.

[Ruckedtobits]

Some thoughts before consigning this thread to the archive.

As France have discovered you must take every point on offer against England. At 28 mins, they had 12 points and we could have had 9 pts, from three penalties on our left side within 45 yds.

We must use line-outs to re-win possession and play the ball to areas they don't expect. Best done by varying line-out numbers, throwing hard, flat throws & ball off the top with a SH or Flanker taking tap ball and finding a support runner where our players know where the ball's going and what's next.

At breakdowns, if an English player is on our side from the tackle, our scrum half must trip over him. Any late arriving Irish forward must collide with him. If the Englishman has his hands on the ground near the ball, stand on them. There is absolutely nothing accidental about how the English players slow up the ball at the breakdown. It is both intentional and practised. It is so well practised that Refs give them the benefit of the doubt.

Attacking the English mid-field requires at least two players who can grubber kick, both short and long. This should be almost the initial choice of attack. From scrums, the No 8 or SH should pass to the side with only one or, at worst, two defenders. The receiver should chip or grubber kick the defender(s).

Until the English defence has been turned at least twice, no Irish ball carrier should run at their line without at least two support runners to clear out the breakdown.

When we get into their 22m area, the primary objective should be to set up a drop goal. (Conceding points without a line break or an infringement demoralises any team).

Beating England is going to become a worldwide crusade in rugby over the next three years. We can research the old play books of the Aussies or Japanese teams against the best SA teams over the past decade for ideas.

We can score more points than them over 80 mins. It is very unlikely that before or at RWC2023 we can beat them as comprehensively as we did in 2018. So guerilla tactics whenever we meet them and consider each of those games as a once-off encounter i.e. don't try to build our normal game plan around the tactics needed to beat a unique opponent. Exposing such tactics to regular scutiny will nullify their usefulness.

I firmly believe that unless we adopt a mindset & outlook to playing England, we will not be able to focus on developing our Squad or how we can best play. If we spend the next three seasons trying to develop our players to beat England at their game, that will be three seasons lost. we must focus on determining how we can best play with the players available. IMO, it's probably fairly close to what Leinster are playing at present.

If Coaches and senior players can agree what patterns & strategies will give us the best chance of playing as well as we can, treating the English games as one-off encounters will provide a great motivation for those games and ensure that even a defeat will not derail over progress in our development.

[blockhead]

Mick Galwey
Just because a player chooses to play his club rugby outside of this country shouldn't mean he can't play for Ireland