England v Ireland 21 November 15:00

Forum for the discussion of all International Rugby

Moderator: moderators

Post Reply
User avatar
Logorrhea
Shane Horgan
Posts: 4300
Joined: October 2nd, 2007, 1:20 pm
Location: D24

Re: England v Ireland 21 November 15:00

Post by Logorrhea »

goforward wrote:
November 23rd, 2020, 3:21 pm
As Murray Kinsella wrote in the 42 today, look at how deep Sexton played from in Twickenham last Feb. Pretty much the same as Ross Byrne on Saturday.
Doesn't matter. people need someone to blame and Byrne's two international starts away to England with an understrength team, are enough for him to be judged. That rules doesn't seem to apply to others who have lost the last four against England. It only applies to him, cause he's not Joey f%~king Carbery.

It doesn't matter that he chipped over chipped through and chipped across within the first 10 mins. All people will remember are the times he passed the ball on to guys who f%~ked up their following pass to the outside (Lowe and Earls) in turn passed to other guys, who then got caught.

No one remembers the times he actually got fast ball and stepped in a good 3-4 yards.

Needless to say, the speed with which he's being blamed for the defeat, as he was for the pre-WC massacre is annoying. I don't think hes Beauden Barrett, but he deserves better than some of the cheap shite being thrown at him.

On a side point, I don't want to take anything away from Burns. I've been pretty impressed with him each time he's come on and on Saturday i thought he did everything you want from a sub 10.

wixfjord
Shane Jennings
Posts: 6458
Joined: April 13th, 2009, 1:00 pm

Re: England v Ireland 21 November 15:00

Post by wixfjord »

Logorrhea wrote:
November 23rd, 2020, 8:25 pm
Doesn't matter. people need someone to blame and Byrne's two international starts away to England with an understrength team, are enough for him to be judged. That rules doesn't seem to apply to others who have lost the last four against England. It only applies to him, cause he's not Joey f%~king Carbery.

It doesn't matter that he chipped over chipped through and chipped across within the first 10 mins. All people will remember are the times he passed the ball on to guys who f%~ked up their following pass to the outside (Lowe and Earls) in turn passed to other guys, who then got caught.

No one remembers the times he actually got fast ball and stepped in a good 3-4 yards.

Needless to say, the speed with which he's being blamed for the defeat, as he was for the pre-WC massacre is annoying. I don't think hes Beauden Barrett, but he deserves better than some of the cheap shite being thrown at him.

On a side point, I don't want to take anything away from Burns. I've been pretty impressed with him each time he's come on and on Saturday i thought he did everything you want from a sub 10.
Just to repeat this again:
wixfjord wrote:
November 22nd, 2020, 5:09 pm
Clearly there are major mitigating factors that our pack were being taken apart and our 12/13 are both one paced.

I also don't think anyone is 'writing off' Ross Byrne after one bad performance. He has pretty consistently shown he can step up to a certain level but also that he probably doesn't have the athleticism or attacking game for top level test rugby.

User avatar
Hippo
Isa Nacewa
Posts: 2068
Joined: January 16th, 2007, 12:48 pm
Location: D4. Yes, D4.

Re: England v Ireland 21 November 15:00

Post by Hippo »

RB didn't play brilliantly for sure but he put a lovely kick through for Farrell and if Farrell had finished the chance, which he should have, the narrative might be a bit different.

Agree 100% with RTB re England players lying on the wrong side, it happened virtually every single time. Nothing accidental about it and as ever Gauzere chose to ignore it.
AKA Peter O'Sullivan

User avatar
Peg Leg
Rob Kearney
Posts: 9587
Joined: February 1st, 2010, 5:08 pm
Location: Procrastinasia
Contact:

Re: England v Ireland 21 November 15:00

Post by Peg Leg »

Ruckedtobits wrote:
November 23rd, 2020, 4:35 pm
Some thoughts before consigning this thread to the archive.

As France have discovered you must take every point on offer against England. At 28 mins, they had 12 points and we could have had 9 pts, from three penalties on our left side within 45 yds.

We must use line-outs to re-win possession and play the ball to areas they don't expect. Best done by varying line-out numbers, throwing hard, flat throws & ball off the top with a SH or Flanker taking tap ball and finding a support runner where our players know where the ball's going and what's next.

At breakdowns, if an English player is on our side from the tackle, our scrum half must trip over him. Any late arriving Irish forward must collide with him. If the Englishman has his hands on the ground near the ball, stand on them. There is absolutely nothing accidental about how the English players slow up the ball at the breakdown. It is both intentional and practised. It is so well practised that Refs give them the benefit of the doubt.

Attacking the English mid-field requires at least two players who can grubber kick, both short and long. This should be almost the initial choice of attack. From scrums, the No 8 or SH should pass to the side with only one or, at worst, two defenders. The receiver should chip or grubber kick the defender(s).

Until the English defence has been turned at least twice, no Irish ball carrier should run at their line without at least two support runners to clear out the breakdown.

When we get into their 22m area, the primary objective should be to set up a drop goal. (Conceding points without a line break or an infringement demoralises any team).

Beating England is going to become a worldwide crusade in rugby over the next three years. We can research the old play books of the Aussies or Japanese teams against the best SA teams over the past decade for ideas.

We can score more points than them over 80 mins. It is very unlikely that before or at RWC2023 we can beat them as comprehensively as we did in 2018. So guerilla tactics whenever we meet them and consider each of those games as a once-off encounter i.e. don't try to build our normal game plan around the tactics needed to beat a unique opponent. Exposing such tactics to regular scutiny will nullify their usefulness.

I firmly believe that unless we adopt a mindset & outlook to playing England, we will not be able to focus on developing our Squad or how we can best play. If we spend the next three seasons trying to develop our players to beat England at their game, that will be three seasons lost. we must focus on determining how we can best play with the players available. IMO, it's probably fairly close to what Leinster are playing at present.

If Coaches and senior players can agree what patterns & strategies will give us the best chance of playing as well as we can, treating the English games as one-off encounters will provide a great motivation for those games and ensure that even a defeat will not derail over progress in our development.
Agree with your intent and methodology, but would give the coaching setup and team a pass for not going after every point on offer. Taking a kick is a test for one player and not much can be learned from that, this was a free hit out against the best team. It's what every coach would dream of a zero risk game to put your players, plays and strategies to the test. This is their baseline.
We are not in the same position as the Argies were v NZ a couple of weeks back, where there was something to prove and every single Sanchez point counted. We could afford to engineer the match as a testing ground for individuals and plays.
"It was Mrs O'Leary's cow"
Daniel Sullivan

User avatar
Peg Leg
Rob Kearney
Posts: 9587
Joined: February 1st, 2010, 5:08 pm
Location: Procrastinasia
Contact:

Re: England v Ireland 21 November 15:00

Post by Peg Leg »

Hippo wrote:
November 24th, 2020, 8:47 am
RB didn't play brilliantly for sure but he put a lovely kick through for Farrell and if Farrell had finished the chance, which he should have, the narrative might be a bit different.

Agree 100% with RTB re England players lying on the wrong side, it happened virtually every single time. Nothing accidental about it and as ever Gauzere chose to ignore it.
The effort they put in to roll over the player they had tackled, to seal off was commendable. It's more noticeable when its someone like Launchbury, but they are quite deft at preventing any pace on attacking ball.
"It was Mrs O'Leary's cow"
Daniel Sullivan

User avatar
ronk
Leo Cullen
Posts: 10796
Joined: April 9th, 2009, 12:42 am

Re: England v Ireland 21 November 15:00

Post by ronk »

Peg Leg wrote:
November 24th, 2020, 10:10 am

Agree with your intent and methodology, but would give the coaching setup and team a pass for not going after every point on offer. Taking a kick is a test for one player and not much can be learned from that, this was a free hit out against the best team. It's what every coach would dream of a zero risk game to put your players, plays and strategies to the test. This is their baseline.
We are not in the same position as the Argies were v NZ a couple of weeks back, where there was something to prove and every single Sanchez point counted. We could afford to engineer the match as a testing ground for individuals and plays.
I disagree. We learnt how hard we can run into a brick wall and they learnt more about how to beat us.

We’d have learnt a lot more if the match had been more of a contest. England took their points and those 2 penalties put us away for good.

Leinster made this mistake against Saracens. We score lots of tries from close range, but the very top defences are almost impregnable when they are dug in.

Playing smart under pressure at least as important as working hard or focusing on execution.

User avatar
Peg Leg
Rob Kearney
Posts: 9587
Joined: February 1st, 2010, 5:08 pm
Location: Procrastinasia
Contact:

Re: England v Ireland 21 November 15:00

Post by Peg Leg »

ronk wrote:
November 24th, 2020, 1:02 pm
Peg Leg wrote:
November 24th, 2020, 10:10 am

Agree with your intent and methodology, but would give the coaching setup and team a pass for not going after every point on offer. Taking a kick is a test for one player and not much can be learned from that, this was a free hit out against the best team. It's what every coach would dream of a zero risk game to put your players, plays and strategies to the test. This is their baseline.
We are not in the same position as the Argies were v NZ a couple of weeks back, where there was something to prove and every single Sanchez point counted. We could afford to engineer the match as a testing ground for individuals and plays.
I disagree. We learnt how hard we can run into a brick wall and they learnt more about how to beat us.
Hard to argue with that. I hope the coaches learned that much at least!
"It was Mrs O'Leary's cow"
Daniel Sullivan

User avatar
dropkick
Mullet
Posts: 1763
Joined: January 2nd, 2007, 12:27 am
Location: Cork

Re: England v Ireland 21 November 15:00

Post by dropkick »

Squidge's take on it.
https://youtu.be/EI2XReTSqpU


Basically he said we started well, putting kicks in behind the English defence but once we went 12 points down, we abandoned that and just tried to batter them down. And the attacking shape was also criticised.

Post Reply