Ireland v. Wales, Fri 13 Nov, 19.00

[munster#1]

I can believe a foreign lad gets a cap against Georgia in order to lock them into Ireland. But essentially that's no different to just having a look at another option.
But beyond that, it's a straight shootout. Be better than the other guy, and you'll get picked. If there is a foreign guy getting a cap, it's because farrell thinks they are better for the game plan.
Thinking there are other factors coming into play is no different than thinking omahony is only getting caps because there is a secret munster quota.

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I am definitely not stating that there is an ulterior motive to capping these players, you are trying to put words in my mouth there.

I think that where we (Ireland) have a gap we should try to plug it in any way possible.
I am just not a fan of these players coming in and playing in positions of relative strength, or that Irish rugby sign project players in positions where we do not have a weakness.
Having 9 such players in our squad is a step too far for me.

It means that 9 players who have come up through our systems, who have dreamt of playing for their country, or have turned down offers from outside Ireland to keep their dream alive, are now going to be watching the upcoming tournament from their couches.
While lads who arrived in the country 3 years previous and will most likely return home once their career is over, are playing for Ireland for the paycheque or for the opportunity to play international rugby, not really caring which crest is on the front of the jersey.

You've painted 2 pictures there, a nice wholesome image of an Irish person, and a fairly undesirable vision of a foreigner. Its easy to like the former and dislike the latter. But where I take issue is assuming all irish are the former and all foreigners are the latter.
So we can interview all candidates and vet them for Irishness one by one, or terminate anyone's contract when negative evidence is forthcoming (as in a media statement stating they don't care about Ireland).
Or we can just treat them all as individuals who have met the requirements, pick a team and get on with it.

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I apologise if that is what you took from my post.
I do not know every foreign player who has went on to represent Ireland, but IMO, and that is not always correct, I would doubt that many of the players with no Irish lineage grew up dreaming of representing Ireland.

I already stated that no metrics should be used to come to the conclusion of a players Irishness. I do not blame the players at all. They are doing what anyone in any career would do. They are looking to get to the top of their game.
Given the opportunity I would do the same, if I got a call to represent any country in Rugby, I would jump at the chance, which was a strong selling point for many of these project players.
The issue is, that this is not any career. This is international sport.

This is something that many have slated the All Blacks for doing for years.

It is certainly a contentious issue, and I respect your opinion on it, and I don’t for a second think that your opinion on this issue is wrong.

My opinion is that when it comes to international sport, it should not be treated with the same approach as you would the club game.
Thankfully from my stand point this issue will be largely gone in a few years, as the 5 year rule should take care of this.

[Xanthippe]

I didn’t say we were the worst, but we are right up there I’d imagine.

I hadn’t listed Dillane, for the same reason that I wouldn’t count the likes of Davis, North etc. as they grew up in the country that they represent, and aren’t doing it purely for professional reasons.
Same would be said for the likes of Heaslip, Rog, Sheehan before them, but if you want include them, then I suppose that is fine too.

Oops sorry - wasn't having a go. I'm not sure what happened to the text I put below the lists - I thought I'd put in a piece about how ridiculous some of the lists are with the Wales 'foreigners' list above having nine players who in another sport or a different competition would all be considered to be from one 'United Kingdom' and the same for six of the Scotland squad.

Also, I'm really surprised Pichot and his ilk never tried to claim our lads from the north were not Irish.

I will say though that I'm still to be fully convinced on the grandparents rule however, as far as I'm concerned if one or both of your parents are Irish by birth then you are too

That’s no problem at all. No offence was taken.

That is a very good point on the British players, especially given that they all have British passports as opposed to Scottish or Welsh.

I am with you on the parentage thing, I like many Irish have family living in the UK and US which were born in those countries to Irish parents.
As I’m sure you have seen yourself, many of those identify as Irish, and are probably prouder of the Irishness than many people living on our small island.

My issue mainly centres around the likes of Stander, Lowe, Kleyn, JGP, etc. who are essentially mercenaries, who have come here for financial and career reasons, and will likely go straight back to the land of their birth and regale for many years to come on how they had great “craic” helping the Paddy’s and made a good wedge whilst doing so.

The one saving grace for me is that the players who come here are not being 'stolen' or coerced away from playing for South Africa and/or New Zealand - they are, for the most part, lads who were overlooked or unwanted by their own country.

[munster#1]

Oops sorry - wasn't having a go. I'm not sure what happened to the text I put below the lists - I thought I'd put in a piece about how ridiculous some of the lists are with the Wales 'foreigners' list above having nine players who in another sport or a different competition would all be considered to be from one 'United Kingdom' and the same for six of the Scotland squad.

Also, I'm really surprised Pichot and his ilk never tried to claim our lads from the north were not Irish.

I will say though that I'm still to be fully convinced on the grandparents rule however, as far as I'm concerned if one or both of your parents are Irish by birth then you are too

That’s no problem at all. No offence was taken.

That is a very good point on the British players, especially given that they all have British passports as opposed to Scottish or Welsh.

I am with you on the parentage thing, I like many Irish have family living in the UK and US which were born in those countries to Irish parents.
As I’m sure you have seen yourself, many of those identify as Irish, and are probably prouder of the Irishness than many people living on our small island.

My issue mainly centres around the likes of Stander, Lowe, Kleyn, JGP, etc. who are essentially mercenaries, who have come here for financial and career reasons, and will likely go straight back to the land of their birth and regale for many years to come on how they had great “craic” helping the Paddy’s and made a good wedge whilst doing so.

The one saving grace for me is that the players who come here are not being 'stolen' or coerced away from playing for South Africa and/or New Zealand - they are, for the most part, lads who were overlooked or unwanted by their own country.

By and large that is correct and a very fair point, that is apart from Knox and Salanoa.
Those are 2 players poached prior to being given a chance to prove their worth to their home nation.

[heno]

That’s no problem at all. No offence was taken.

That is a very good point on the British players, especially given that they all have British passports as opposed to Scottish or Welsh.

I am with you on the parentage thing, I like many Irish have family living in the UK and US which were born in those countries to Irish parents.
As I’m sure you have seen yourself, many of those identify as Irish, and are probably prouder of the Irishness than many people living on our small island.

My issue mainly centres around the likes of Stander, Lowe, Kleyn, JGP, etc. who are essentially mercenaries, who have come here for financial and career reasons, and will likely go straight back to the land of their birth and regale for many years to come on how they had great “craic” helping the Paddy’s and made a good wedge whilst doing so.

The one saving grace for me is that the players who come here are not being 'stolen' or coerced away from playing for South Africa and/or New Zealand - they are, for the most part, lads who were overlooked or unwanted by their own country.

By and large that is correct and a very fair point, that is apart from Knox and Salanoa.
Those are 2 players poached prior to being given a chance to prove their worth to their home nation.

Regarding the poaching of underage players, you could further tweak the rule to
A) if 20 on start of residency, 5 years
B) if less than 20, 7 years or 5 years from your 20th bday whichever is sooner.
So if you have done your secondary schooling here you won't be so badly affected

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[dropkick]

I think they should use this tournament for development mainly. Doesn't mean they can't go for the win either. I don't think picking young players will necessarily mean a downgraded performance. If anything they will give the squad a boost.


We've seen for years with Leinster and this season with munster that having competition for places helps boost the whole squad and keeps everyone on their toes.


There's no point making changes for the sake of it either. If Ross Byrne has an average ceiling for international rugby then there's no point persisting with him now when Healy and Harry are showing such potential. Try one or both of those out and have Sexton coming on to close out the big games. Not a bad sub to have and it would lighten his workload.

I'd personally drop Murray. Not that he's doing much wrong but let's see what Marmion, Cooney etc can bring. They'll speed things up anyway which is what every team wants.


I'd also like to see a wider training squad. Get the likes of (throwing a few names out there) Hodnett, Coombes, Sheehan, Tommy OB, Stewart Moore etc in. It will keep the seniors on their toes. Sheehan has proved nothing yet but NZ bring young players on tour with them based on potential. The likes of Jordi Barrett Ardie Savea etc.


Id rather take a chance on a potentially high ceiling player than a player with an average ceiling.

I agree that they should use the tournament for development. Development does not just mean playing young players though – it should also mean developing skills [position-specific and unit, i.e. Stockdale's defensive positioning, our lineout play], decision-making [off live ball and dead ball], discipline in our gameplan [players knowing exactly what they have to do off the ball] and mentality/motivation.

Bringing young players into the mix is probably Farrell's strong suit; he has brought younger players into the training squad at every turn.

Six Nations Squad Jan 2020: https://www.irishrugby.ie/2020/01/15/ir ... x-nations/
Uncapped Players
Max Deegan*, Caelan Doris*, Ronan Kelleher*, Tom O'Toole, Billy Burns
Development Players
Ryan Baird, Robert Baloucoune, Harry Byrne, Will Connors*

Six Nations Squad Oct 2020: https://www.irishrugby.ie/2020/10/08/ir ... mpionship/
Uncapped Players
Ryan Baird, Will Connors, Ed Byrne*, Hugo Keenan*, Jamison Gibson Park*, Shane Daly
Development Players
Harry Byrne, Craig Casey, James Lowe, James Tracy, Fineen Wycherly

*first capped by Farrell

But bringing young players into the mix is not the answer for everything. I don't think it's going to make our lineout work more efficiently, for example. Maybe some different teaching methods, individual technical coaching, or more time under tension together as a unit will improve our lineout efficiency, rather than just putting a different player into the mix?

A big part of the coach's job is identifying what the problem is and then using what resources they have to solve the problem. That might just be telling somebody "You have to be the hardest b*stard on the pitch today" or it might mean detailing somebody in the staff to put together loads of footage of a specific topic, and then go through it with a player or group of players in minute detail, bring that on to the training pitch, then back to analysis etc.

From my perspective, England have got into our heads. They have beaten us up three games in a row and they've dominated us physically. I think that's something that we've got a really good chance to address in this sequence of games. Just bring a load of aggression to the table. Don't sweat the gameplan, just make it 80 minutes of carnage. Get a load of size into the team up front. Opt for strength and experience in selection. Make a late change to a 6-2 split on the bench, pick a blindside at No7 - Ruddock to start, with O'Mahony on the bench – and then send them out there with a mission: sow it in to them for the whole day. Any niggle and all forwards pile in - don't give them an inch. Set a physical standard and don't worry about the penalties. Make it a game that has the pearl-clutchers wailing and writing letters to the Sunday papers!

vs England
Forwards: Healy, Herring, Porter, Henderson, J. Ryan, Beirne, Ruddock, Stander
Backs: Murray, Sexton, Lowe, Aki, Henshaw, Conway, Stockdale
Subs: R. Kelleher, J. Cronin, Furlong, Dillane, Conan, O'Mahony, Cooney, Earls

Fair points there and Farrell talked about wanting the players to establish themselves in their provinces first which I don't have a problem with either. I'd prefer to take a gamble but gambles don't always pay off and my job isn't on the line.


I'd agree about England getting into our heads but I don't think this group are the strongest mentally either. Nearly every big game since 2018 has seen some sort of implosion. I dont think the provinces' dominating pro14 teams help in that regard as the players are just not used to being under the cosh very often but it's more complex than that.

[ronk]

I'd agree about England getting into our heads but I don't think this group are the strongest mentally either. Nearly every big game since 2018 has seen some sort of implosion. I dont think the provinces' dominating pro14 teams help in that regard as the players are just not used to being under the cosh very often but it's more complex than that.

Prior to 2018 we were ahead of the curve for executing an innovative game plan. On our day we could beat anyone, we even beat NZ twice.

We’re still trying things but we haven’t fit on as successful a formula as before. We’re also trying to learn to play without some historically dominant players. Rob Kearney was a lockdown fullback, teams sometimes didn’t try kicking to him. Toner was dominant at line out, you could use movement to get at opening but you had to figure out a way around him rather than take him on. SOB gave so much on both sides of the ball, as did Heaslip a little earlier.

We were one of the best around at going through the phases in attack and defence but the game has changed. It’s still important and we’ve done well at bringing things into our game like chop tackling it I don’t think we’ve hit on our formula yet. Other teams have, I don’t think Wales have either, so this is actually a really interesting and important game.

We’re both still finding out feet after moving on with all time great coaches.

[cormac]

Wales have sacked their defence coach

https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/54864044

[Twist]

As mentioned above, emigration has had a huge impact on the country and so we've always had a number of foreign-born players from the diaspora on the team.

Well immigration has now also had a big impact on our society, with well over half a million foreign-born people living in Ireland. Some are citizens and some aren't. There are foreign-born people in the gardaí, army and health service doing a fine job and I really don't see the problem with that same cohort of people playing representative sport. Especially when you consider that we're talking about a team representing a country that doesn't currently exist as a political entity.

It's probably true that some of them came here because they had the opportunity to earn more money, but thats the same with a plumber or a doctor. It shouldn't stop any eligible player from playing at the highest level they can. If some other player misses out, then it's up to him to get better.

Just go with the rules as they are. I'd hate to think some of our players being made to feel they don't belong.

[Leinster Lout]

Is there anything to be said for trying Doris at 7?

A backrow of Ruddock at 6, Doris at 7 and Stander at 8 would definitely be getting the 3 current best backrowers into the team anyway. I appreciate that Ruddock is unlikely to get called up.

[Hippo]

As mentioned above, emigration has had a huge impact on the country and so we've always had a number of foreign-born players from the diaspora on the team.

Well immigration has now also had a big impact on our society, with well over half a million foreign-born people living in Ireland. Some are citizens and some aren't. There are foreign-born people in the gardaí, army and health service doing a fine job and I really don't see the problem with that same cohort of people playing representative sport. Especially when you consider that we're talking about a team representing a country that doesn't currently exist as a political entity.

It's probably true that some of them came here because they had the opportunity to earn more money, but thats the same with a plumber or a doctor. It shouldn't stop any eligible player from playing at the highest level they can. If some other player misses out, then it's up to him to get better.

Just go with the rules as they are. I'd hate to think some of our players being made to feel they don't belong.

+1 to all of this

[munster#1]

As mentioned above, emigration has had a huge impact on the country and so we've always had a number of foreign-born players from the diaspora on the team.

Well immigration has now also had a big impact on our society, with well over half a million foreign-born people living in Ireland. Some are citizens and some aren't. There are foreign-born people in the gardaí, army and health service doing a fine job and I really don't see the problem with that same cohort of people playing representative sport. Especially when you consider that we're talking about a team representing a country that doesn't currently exist as a political entity.

It's probably true that some of them came here because they had the opportunity to earn more money, but thats the same with a plumber or a doctor. It shouldn't stop any eligible player from playing at the highest level they can. If some other player misses out, then it's up to him to get better.

Just go with the rules as they are. I'd hate to think some of our players being made to feel they don't belong.

You make some very valid points, and it’s probably that you have a more progressive view point than me, as I can’t get past the need for a player to identify as Irish before playing for Ireland.
I am not too caught up on country of Birth, there are plenty of examples of players born in other countries who are proud Irish me, and have been very passionate with regards to representing Ireland.

My main issue is the players who have no real affiliation with Ireland other than a career or cash opportunity.

This is definitely a subject that will divide opinion.
Much like the number of people who call Munster or Ulster a joke for having so many non local lads on their ranks.

[Laighin Break]

Is there anything to be said for trying Doris at 7?

A backrow of Ruddock at 6, Doris at 7 and Stander at 8 would definitely be getting the 3 current best backrowers into the team anyway. I appreciate that Ruddock is unlikely to get called up.

I'd probably be more likely to put Ruddock in at 7 - think he's played there before (last minute starter in a win against South Africa?) though maybe he doesn't have the pace for it now, with Doris and Stander at 6/8, or maybe even at 8/6.

[munster#1]

Hearing that JGP is likely to start, as are Kelleher, Henderson, POM, Farrell, JVD and Dorris moved to 8.

Conway drops out of squad with Earls named on bench.

[heno]

As mentioned above, emigration has had a huge impact on the country and so we've always had a number of foreign-born players from the diaspora on the team.

Well immigration has now also had a big impact on our society, with well over half a million foreign-born people living in Ireland. Some are citizens and some aren't. There are foreign-born people in the gardaí, army and health service doing a fine job and I really don't see the problem with that same cohort of people playing representative sport. Especially when you consider that we're talking about a team representing a country that doesn't currently exist as a political entity.

It's probably true that some of them came here because they had the opportunity to earn more money, but thats the same with a plumber or a doctor. It shouldn't stop any eligible player from playing at the highest level they can. If some other player misses out, then it's up to him to get better.

Just go with the rules as they are. I'd hate to think some of our players being made to feel they don't belong.

You make some very valid points, and it’s probably that you have a more progressive view point than me, as I can’t get past the need for a player to identify as Irish before playing for Ireland.
I am not too caught up on country of Birth, there are plenty of examples of players born in other countries who are proud Irish me, and have been very passionate with regards to representing Ireland.

My main issue is the players who have no real affiliation with Ireland other than a career or cash opportunity.

This is definitely a subject that will divide opinion.
Much like the number of people who call Munster or Ulster a joke for having so many non local lads on their ranks.

Whether at national or provincial level, I have no problem if you look at what system the player has come through, and bemoan things when the player has not come the native system. That is a rugby issue.
The idea is we put in place a system with schools clubs and academies to produce the players and bring them through to the province and then the national team. I hope that one day soon we will be able to say thats true for leinster, and maybe later on for the national team and the other provinces. But not for some idealistic reason, but because it shows that the rugby system we have in place in the country is operating well.
It doesn't involve non rugby things like where you were born, what accent, skin colour, heritage, passport, where you lived before or after rugby etc.
Obviously the residency rule is a way to force you through the system at least partially, ie Aki played for connacht for x years before Ireland call up. The earlier you enter the system the better, ideally come here as a teenager and start playing in the schools and get called up to the academy like everyone else.
I think we can all agree nobody wants us to realise we have no tightheads and have to go to South Africa to entice people to come here. But my reason is because it shows that our system had failed. Not because of non Irishness.
Same applies to munster and out halves for example.

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[Xanthippe]

Two New Caps In Match Day Squad For Guinness Series Opener
10th November 2020 12:40

By Editor

The Ireland team to play Wales in the opening game of the Guinness Series in the Autumn Nations Cup

The Ireland Coaching Team have named their squad for their first Guinness Series game of the Autumn Nations Cup as they welcome Wales to the Aviva Stadium on Friday night. There are two uncapped players in the match day 23.

James Lowe will make his Ireland debut in an exciting back three that also includes Jacob Stockdale and Hugo Keenan.

Captain Johnny Sexton links up with provincial partner Jamison Gibson Park, who makes his first start after two caps off the bench, in the half-backs.


Robbie Henshaw switches to inside centre with Chris Farrell coming in at 13.

In the pack Cian Healy and Andrew Porter are joined by Ronan Kelleher at hooker. Iain Henderson returns to the second row to partner James Ryan. The backrow sees Caelan Doris switch to No.8 with Peter O’Mahony, winning his 70th cap, at 6 and Josh van der Flier at 7.

The uncapped Billy Burns will be aiming for his first cap as he is named in the replacements alongside Conor Murray and the returning Keith Earls.

The replacement forwards are Dave Heffernan, Ed Byrne, Finlay Bealham, Quinn Roux and Will Connors.

The game is being televised by RTÉ and Channel 4.

Ireland Team & Replacements
(v Wales, Guinness Series 2020, Autumn Nations Cup, Friday, November 13, 7.00pm, Aviva Stadium)

15. Jacob Stockdale (Ulster/Lurgan) 30 caps
14. Hugo Keenan (Leinster/UCD) 2 caps
13. Chris Farrell (Munster/Young Munster) 10 caps
12. Robbie Henshaw (Leinster/Buccaneers) 45 caps
11. James Lowe (Leinster) uncapped
10. Jonathan Sexton (Leinster/St Mary’s College) 93 caps CAPTAIN
9. Jamison Gibson Park (Leinster) 2 caps
1. Cian Healy (Leinster/Clontarf) 100 caps
2. Ronan Kelleher (Leinster/Lansdowne) 3 caps
3. Andrew Porter (Leinster/UCD) 28 caps
4. Iain Henderson (Ulster/Academy) 55 caps
5. James Ryan (Leinster/UCD) 28 caps
6. Peter O’Mahony (Munster/Cork Constitution) 69 caps
7. Josh van der Flier (Leinster/UCD) 26 caps
8. Caelan Doris (Leinster/St Mary’s College) 4 caps

Replacements

16. Dave Heffernan (Connacht/Buccaneers) 3 caps
17. Ed Byrne (Leinster/UCD) 2 caps
18. Finlay Bealham (Connacht/Buccaneers) 11 caps
19. Quinn Roux (Connacht/Galwegians) 12 caps
20. Will Connors (Leinster/UCD) 2 caps
21. Conor Murray (Munster/Garryowen) 83 caps
22. Billy Burns (UIster) uncapped
23. Keith Earls (Munster/Young Munster) 84 caps

[Barry]

Two New Caps In Match Day Squad For Guinness Series Opener
10th November 2020 12:40

By Editor

The Ireland team to play Wales in the opening game of the Guinness Series in the Autumn Nations Cup

The Ireland Coaching Team have named their squad for their first Guinness Series game of the Autumn Nations Cup as they welcome Wales to the Aviva Stadium on Friday night. There are two uncapped players in the match day 23.

James Lowe will make his Ireland debut in an exciting back three that also includes Jacob Stockdale and Hugo Keenan.

Captain Johnny Sexton links up with provincial partner Jamison Gibson Park, who makes his first start after two caps off the bench, in the half-backs.


Robbie Henshaw switches to inside centre with Chris Farrell coming in at 13.

In the pack Cian Healy and Andrew Porter are joined by Ronan Kelleher at hooker. Iain Henderson returns to the second row to partner James Ryan. The backrow sees Caelan Doris switch to No.8 with Peter O’Mahony, winning his 70th cap, at 6 and Josh van der Flier at 7.

The uncapped Billy Burns will be aiming for his first cap as he is named in the replacements alongside Conor Murray and the returning Keith Earls.

The replacement forwards are Dave Heffernan, Ed Byrne, Finlay Bealham, Quinn Roux and Will Connors.

The game is being televised by RTÉ and Channel 4.

Ireland Team & Replacements
(v Wales, Guinness Series 2020, Autumn Nations Cup, Friday, November 13, 7.00pm, Aviva Stadium)

15. Jacob Stockdale (Ulster/Lurgan) 30 caps
14. Hugo Keenan (Leinster/UCD) 2 caps
13. Chris Farrell (Munster/Young Munster) 10 caps
12. Robbie Henshaw (Leinster/Buccaneers) 45 caps
11. James Lowe (Leinster) uncapped
10. Jonathan Sexton (Leinster/St Mary’s College) 93 caps CAPTAIN
9. Jamison Gibson Park (Leinster) 2 caps
1. Cian Healy (Leinster/Clontarf) 100 caps
2. Ronan Kelleher (Leinster/Lansdowne) 3 caps
3. Andrew Porter (Leinster/UCD) 28 caps
4. Iain Henderson (Ulster/Academy) 55 caps
5. James Ryan (Leinster/UCD) 28 caps
6. Peter O’Mahony (Munster/Cork Constitution) 69 caps
7. Josh van der Flier (Leinster/UCD) 26 caps
8. Caelan Doris (Leinster/St Mary’s College) 4 caps

Replacements

16. Dave Heffernan (Connacht/Buccaneers) 3 caps
17. Ed Byrne (Leinster/UCD) 2 caps
18. Finlay Bealham (Connacht/Buccaneers) 11 caps
19. Quinn Roux (Connacht/Galwegians) 12 caps
20. Will Connors (Leinster/UCD) 2 caps
21. Conor Murray (Munster/Garryowen) 83 caps
22. Billy Burns (UIster) uncapped
23. Keith Earls (Munster/Young Munster) 84 caps

Will be international cap #100 for J10, including 6 lions test caps

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[nc6000]

Isn't James Lowe registered for Clondalkin RFC?

[Pilotman123]

Surely there’s a better fullback in Ireland than Jacob Stockdale? Most school boys can catch a rugby ball why can’t he? no idea why he’s picked again, players should be picked on current form not what they did 2 years ago

[Xanthippe]

Isn't James Lowe registered for Clondalkin RFC?

Yes but to be fair Leinster don't have them on his bio page either

[Logorrhea]

I think Stockdale is going to be an awesome fullback, just give him time. He looks a real threat going forward, hes pretty good under the high ball and has an excellent kicking game. Plenty of room to improve but a real good base.