Ireland v. Wales, Fri 13 Nov, 19.00

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Twist
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Ireland v. Wales, Fri 13 Nov, 19.00

Post by Twist »

So, Wales are on a bit of a losing streak now. They’ve lost their last five games starting with the last time they were in Dublin

Ireland (a) 8 Feb
France (h) 22 Feb
England (a) 7 Mar

France (a) 24 Oct
Scotland (h) 31 Oct

Included there is a 3 point loss at Twickenham where they were pretty unlucky, but also their first home loss to the Scots in the 6N since 2002.

I cant imagine Wales extending a losing streak much longer but they really looked below par yesterday.

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Re: Ireland v. Wales, Fri 13 Nov, 19.00

Post by dropkick »

I think they should use this tournament for development mainly. Doesn't mean they can't go for the win either. I don't think picking young players will necessarily mean a downgraded performance. If anything they will give the squad a boost.


We've seen for years with Leinster and this season with munster that having competition for places helps boost the whole squad and keeps everyone on their toes.


There's no point making changes for the sake of it either. If Ross Byrne has an average ceiling for international rugby then there's no point persisting with him now when Healy and Harry are showing such potential. Try one or both of those out and have Sexton coming on to close out the big games. Not a bad sub to have and it would lighten his workload.

I'd personally drop Murray. Not that he's doing much wrong but let's see what Marmion, Cooney etc can bring. They'll speed things up anyway which is what every team wants.


I'd also like to see a wider training squad. Get the likes of (throwing a few names out there) Hodnett, Coombes, Sheehan, Tommy OB, Stewart Moore etc in. It will keep the seniors on their toes. Sheehan has proved nothing yet but NZ bring young players on tour with them based on potential. The likes of Jordi Barrett Ardie Savea etc.


Id rather take a chance on a potentially high ceiling player than a player with an average ceiling.

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Re: Ireland v. Wales, Fri 13 Nov, 19.00

Post by hugonaut »

dropkick wrote:
November 4th, 2020, 1:52 pm
I think they should use this tournament for development mainly. Doesn't mean they can't go for the win either. I don't think picking young players will necessarily mean a downgraded performance. If anything they will give the squad a boost.


We've seen for years with Leinster and this season with munster that having competition for places helps boost the whole squad and keeps everyone on their toes.


There's no point making changes for the sake of it either. If Ross Byrne has an average ceiling for international rugby then there's no point persisting with him now when Healy and Harry are showing such potential. Try one or both of those out and have Sexton coming on to close out the big games. Not a bad sub to have and it would lighten his workload.

I'd personally drop Murray. Not that he's doing much wrong but let's see what Marmion, Cooney etc can bring. They'll speed things up anyway which is what every team wants.


I'd also like to see a wider training squad. Get the likes of (throwing a few names out there) Hodnett, Coombes, Sheehan, Tommy OB, Stewart Moore etc in. It will keep the seniors on their toes. Sheehan has proved nothing yet but NZ bring young players on tour with them based on potential. The likes of Jordi Barrett Ardie Savea etc.


Id rather take a chance on a potentially high ceiling player than a player with an average ceiling.
I agree that they should use the tournament for development. Development does not just mean playing young players though – it should also mean developing skills [position-specific and unit, i.e. Stockdale's defensive positioning, our lineout play], decision-making [off live ball and dead ball], discipline in our gameplan [players knowing exactly what they have to do off the ball] and mentality/motivation.

Bringing young players into the mix is probably Farrell's strong suit; he has brought younger players into the training squad at every turn.

Six Nations Squad Jan 2020: https://www.irishrugby.ie/2020/01/15/ir ... x-nations/
Uncapped Players
Max Deegan*, Caelan Doris*, Ronan Kelleher*, Tom O'Toole, Billy Burns
Development Players
Ryan Baird, Robert Baloucoune, Harry Byrne, Will Connors*

Six Nations Squad Oct 2020: https://www.irishrugby.ie/2020/10/08/ir ... mpionship/
Uncapped Players
Ryan Baird, Will Connors, Ed Byrne*, Hugo Keenan*, Jamison Gibson Park*, Shane Daly
Development Players
Harry Byrne, Craig Casey, James Lowe, James Tracy, Fineen Wycherly

*first capped by Farrell

But bringing young players into the mix is not the answer for everything. I don't think it's going to make our lineout work more efficiently, for example. Maybe some different teaching methods, individual technical coaching, or more time under tension together as a unit will improve our lineout efficiency, rather than just putting a different player into the mix?

A big part of the coach's job is identifying what the problem is and then using what resources they have to solve the problem. That might just be telling somebody "You have to be the hardest b*stard on the pitch today" or it might mean detailing somebody in the staff to put together loads of footage of a specific topic, and then go through it with a player or group of players in minute detail, bring that on to the training pitch, then back to analysis etc.

From my perspective, England have got into our heads. They have beaten us up three games in a row and they've dominated us physically. I think that's something that we've got a really good chance to address in this sequence of games. Just bring a load of aggression to the table. Don't sweat the gameplan, just make it 80 minutes of carnage. Get a load of size into the team up front. Opt for strength and experience in selection. Make a late change to a 6-2 split on the bench, pick a blindside at No7 - Ruddock to start, with O'Mahony on the bench – and then send them out there with a mission: sow it in to them for the whole day. Any niggle and all forwards pile in - don't give them an inch. Set a physical standard and don't worry about the penalties. Make it a game that has the pearl-clutchers wailing and writing letters to the Sunday papers!

vs England
Forwards: Healy, Herring, Porter, Henderson, J. Ryan, Beirne, Ruddock, Stander
Backs: Murray, Sexton, Lowe, Aki, Henshaw, Conway, Stockdale
Subs: R. Kelleher, J. Cronin, Furlong, Dillane, Conan, O'Mahony, Cooney, Earls

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munster#1
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Re: Ireland v. Wales, Fri 13 Nov, 19.00

Post by munster#1 »

I wonder if Munster Covid enforced break will be used to stage a training game against Ireland.

Could be a good opportunity to get some of the young bucks at Munster in and around the squad.
And will give Ireland a reasonably good contest.

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Re: Ireland v. Wales, Fri 13 Nov, 19.00

Post by munster#1 »

Ireland Squad Guinness Series / Autumn Nations Cup

Backs (16)

Bundee Aki (Connacht/Galwegians) 28 caps

Billy Burns (Ulster) uncapped

Ross Byrne (Leinster/UCD) 8 caps

Andrew Conway (Munster/Garryowen) 23 caps

Shane Daly (Munster/Cork Con) uncapped

Keith Earls (Munster/Young Munster) 84 caps

Chris Farrell (Munster/Young Munster) 10 caps

Jamison Gibson Park (Leinster) 2 caps

Robbie Henshaw (Leinster/Buccaneers) 45 caps

Hugo Keenan (Leinster/UCD) 2 caps

James Lowe (Leinster) uncapped

Kieran Marmion (Connacht/Corinthians) 27 caps

Stuart McCloskey (Ulster/Bangor) 3 caps

Conor Murray (Munster/Garryowen) 83 caps

Jonathan Sexton (Leinster/St Mary’s College) 93 caps CAPTAIN

Jacob Stockdale (Ulster/Lurgan) 30 caps

Forwards (18)

Finlay Bealham (Connacht/Buccaneers) 11 caps

Tadhg Beirne (Munster/Lansdowne) 15 caps

Ed Byrne (Leinster/UCD) 2 caps

Will Connors (Leinster/UCD) 2 caps

Ultan Dillane (Connacht/Corinthians) 17 caps

Caelan Doris (Leinster/UCD) 4 caps

Cian Healy (Leinster/Clontarf) 100 caps

Dave Heffernan (Connacht/Buccaneers) 3 caps

Iain Henderson (Ulster/Academy) 55 caps

Rob Herring (Ulster/Ballynahinch) 13 caps

Ronan Kelleher (Leinster/Lansdowne) 3 caps

Peter O’Mahony (Munster/Cork Constitution) 69 caps

Andrew Porter (Leinster/UCD) 28 caps

Quinn Roux (Connacht/Galwegians) 12 caps

John Ryan (Munster/Cork Constitution) 21 caps

James Ryan (Leinster/UCD) 28 caps

CJ Stander (Munster/Shannon) 43 caps

Josh van der Flier (Leinster/UCD) 26 caps

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Re: Ireland v. Wales, Fri 13 Nov, 19.00

Post by munster#1 »

Kind of disappointed with the squad. I really thought that there would be a few more up and coming players added.

No sign of Casey, H Byrne, Healy, Fineen W etc is a bit of a let down.
I had hoped to see JOD added, but not to be.

Interestingly 9, or more than 1/4 of the squad are imports.
Are Ireland one of the worst countries in world rugby for this practice?

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Re: Ireland v. Wales, Fri 13 Nov, 19.00

Post by Avenger »

munster#1 wrote:
November 5th, 2020, 11:46 am
Interestingly 9, or more than 1/4 of the squad are imports.
Are Ireland one of the worst countries in world rugby for this practice?
Not a fan of this at all.
I've no interest in watching non-Irish lads playing in green.
I don't care that other countries do it and its perfectly within the rules. I'm not a fan.
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Re: Ireland v. Wales, Fri 13 Nov, 19.00

Post by MylesNaGapoleen »

Avenger wrote:
November 5th, 2020, 1:53 pm
munster#1 wrote:
November 5th, 2020, 11:46 am
Interestingly 9, or more than 1/4 of the squad are imports.
Are Ireland one of the worst countries in world rugby for this practice?
Not a fan of this at all.
I've no interest in watching non-Irish lads playing in green.
I don't care that other countries do it and its perfectly within the rules. I'm not a fan.
I second that emotion.

New Zealand have done it for decades. hoovering up pacific islanders and giving them NZ citizenship and lots of benefits.
I think it is fine to have a few...but 9 is stretching it a little too far and diminishing the nature of an international team.
As great a player and nice guy Bundy Aki is, I cringe sometimes when I see him kissing the irish crest on his jersey after games. I don't doubt his sincerity but it's a tad soccery for me.

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Re: Ireland v. Wales, Fri 13 Nov, 19.00

Post by Flash Gordon »

Avenger wrote:
November 5th, 2020, 1:53 pm
munster#1 wrote:
November 5th, 2020, 11:46 am
Interestingly 9, or more than 1/4 of the squad are imports.
Are Ireland one of the worst countries in world rugby for this practice?
Not a fan of this at all.
I've no interest in watching non-Irish lads playing in green.
I don't care that other countries do it and its perfectly within the rules. I'm not a fan.
Rules are tighter as of now and I'm happy with that. Historically we had quite a lot of lads in diaspora coming over from the UK but I kind of got that given the fact that our society was so impacted by emigration. Clubs like London Irish existed to accommodate waves of Irish emigrants. However residency has been tested to the limited in my view and I'm happy they've pushed it out to 5 years. So Carbery yes, Lowe no going forward.
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Re: Ireland v. Wales, Fri 13 Nov, 19.00

Post by munster#1 »

MylesNaGapoleen wrote:
November 5th, 2020, 6:35 pm
Avenger wrote:
November 5th, 2020, 1:53 pm
munster#1 wrote:
November 5th, 2020, 11:46 am
Interestingly 9, or more than 1/4 of the squad are imports.
Are Ireland one of the worst countries in world rugby for this practice?
Not a fan of this at all.
I've no interest in watching non-Irish lads playing in green.
I don't care that other countries do it and its perfectly within the rules. I'm not a fan.
I second that emotion.

New Zealand have done it for decades. hoovering up pacific islanders and giving them NZ citizenship and lots of benefits.
I think it is fine to have a few...but 9 is stretching it a little too far and diminishing the nature of an international team.
As great a player and nice guy Bundy Aki is, I cringe sometimes when I see him kissing the irish crest on his jersey after games. I don't doubt his sincerity but it's a tad soccery for me.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe that Aki’s family don’t live in Ireland, and he spends is down time with them in New Zealand?
This to me would indicate that he has no long term plans to remain in Ireland, which would eliminate him from being someone who identifies as Irish.

This is not limited to Aki, the same could be said for most if not all of these recruits.

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Re: Ireland v. Wales, Fri 13 Nov, 19.00

Post by ronk »

munster#1 wrote:
November 5th, 2020, 11:46 am
Kind of disappointed with the squad. I really thought that there would be a few more up and coming players added.

No sign of Casey, H Byrne, Healy, Fineen W etc is a bit of a let down.
I had hoped to see JOD added, but not to be.

Interestingly 9, or more than 1/4 of the squad are imports.
Are Ireland one of the worst countries in world rugby for this practice?
Ed Byrne, Ronan Kelleher, Ryan Baird (injured), Caelan Doris, Will Connors, JPG, Burns, Lowe, Keenan, Daly. Where’s all the new blood?

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Re: Ireland v. Wales, Fri 13 Nov, 19.00

Post by heno »


munster#1 wrote: Correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe that Aki’s family don’t live in Ireland, and he spends is down time with them in New Zealand?
This to me would indicate that he has no long term plans to remain in Ireland, which would eliminate him from being someone who identifies as Irish.

This is not limited to Aki, the same could be said for most if not all of these recruits.
I know what you mean. But you wouldn't so limit someone who was born here such as Johnny Giles or Sonia O'Sullivan.

Fundamentally "being Irish"(or any nation) has such a varied and broad set of meanings, it essentially is meaningless. You have people who are born here, people who have lived and worked here, people who's heritage is from here, and people who have represented us on a sports team. These are different things that may or not apply to any given person. I would not be offended if Aki described himself as a new Zealander who represents Ireland. I don't feel that he needs to use the descriptor "Irish".

Note, I'm not in favour of a free for all. We have the rule. I, like a lot of us, think the 5 years is an improvement. I'm open to discussing other improvements as long as it's formula based and not "feeling" based.

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Re: Ireland v. Wales, Fri 13 Nov, 19.00

Post by Xanthippe »

munster#1 wrote:
November 5th, 2020, 11:46 am
Interestingly 9, or more than 1/4 of the squad are imports.
Are Ireland one of the worst countries in world rugby for this practice?

Wales squad for end of 6 Nations
George North (England)
Jonah Holmes (England)
Johnny Williams (England)
Nick Tompkins (England)
Jonathan Davies (England)
Ross Moriarty (England)
Taulupe Faletau (Tonga)
Will Rowlands (England)
Jake Ball (England)
Tomas Francis (England)



And Scotland squad
Duhan van der Merwe (South Africa)
Sean Maitland (New Zealand)
James Lang (England)
Sam Johnson (Australia)
Chris Harris (England)
Nick Grigg (New Zealand)
Ali Price (England)
Hamish Watson (England)
Blade Thomson (New Zealand)
Rob Harley (England)
Nick Haining (Australia)
Blair Cowan (New Zealand)
Cornell du Preez (South Africa)
Ben Toolis (Australia)
Sam Skinner (England)
WP Nel (South Africa)
Oli Kebble (South Africa)
Simon Berghan (New Zealand)
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Re: Ireland v. Wales, Fri 13 Nov, 19.00

Post by munster#1 »

Xanthippe wrote:
November 6th, 2020, 3:13 am
munster#1 wrote:
November 5th, 2020, 11:46 am
Interestingly 9, or more than 1/4 of the squad are imports.
Are Ireland one of the worst countries in world rugby for this practice?

Wales squad for end of 6 Nations
George North (England)
Jonah Holmes (England)
Johnny Williams (England)
Nick Tompkins (England)
Jonathan Davies (England)
Ross Moriarty (England)
Taulupe Faletau (Tonga)
Will Rowlands (England)
Jake Ball (England)
Tomas Francis (England)



And Scotland squad
Duhan van der Merwe (South Africa)
Sean Maitland (New Zealand)
James Lang (England)
Sam Johnson (Australia)
Chris Harris (England)
Nick Grigg (New Zealand)
Ali Price (England)
Hamish Watson (England)
Blade Thomson (New Zealand)
Rob Harley (England)
Nick Haining (Australia)
Blair Cowan (New Zealand)
Cornell du Preez (South Africa)
Ben Toolis (Australia)
Sam Skinner (England)
WP Nel (South Africa)
Oli Kebble (South Africa)
Simon Berghan (New Zealand)
I didn’t say we were the worst, but we are right up there I’d imagine.

I hadn’t listed Dillane, for the same reason that I wouldn’t count the likes of Davis, North etc. as they grew up in the country that they represent, and aren’t doing it purely for professional reasons.
Same would be said for the likes of Heaslip, Rog, Sheehan before them, but if you want include them, then I suppose that is fine too.

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Re: Ireland v. Wales, Fri 13 Nov, 19.00

Post by munster#1 »

heno wrote:
November 5th, 2020, 11:45 pm
munster#1 wrote: Correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe that Aki’s family don’t live in Ireland, and he spends is down time with them in New Zealand?
This to me would indicate that he has no long term plans to remain in Ireland, which would eliminate him from being someone who identifies as Irish.

This is not limited to Aki, the same could be said for most if not all of these recruits.
I know what you mean. But you wouldn't so limit someone who was born here such as Johnny Giles or Sonia O'Sullivan.

Fundamentally "being Irish"(or any nation) has such a varied and broad set of meanings, it essentially is meaningless. You have people who are born here, people who have lived and worked here, people who's heritage is from here, and people who have represented us on a sports team. These are different things that may or not apply to any given person. I would not be offended if Aki described himself as a new Zealander who represents Ireland. I don't feel that he needs to use the descriptor "Irish".

Note, I'm not in favour of a free for all. We have the rule. I, like a lot of us, think the 5 years is an improvement. I'm open to discussing other improvements as long as it's formula based and not "feeling" based.

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I largely agree with you, and I am not so against a foreigner playing for Ireland that I think we should apply a strict set of metrics to decide how Irish a person really is.

My problem is that the IRFU, through their policies and their franchises actively sought out many of these players, with a view to potentially capping them in the future.

This was a selling point that the IRFU used in luring some of them here.
The latest examples of those would be Knox and Salanoa, the main, if not the only reason that they were permitted to take up places in the Munster and Leinster academies, was their potential to play for Ireland.
This essentially makes Ireland a professional club IMO.

I understand that these are the rules, and we play within them, but we definitely exploit the rules like some others, and this is why the rules were changed.

The biggest issue for me, is that some of these players are being capped ahead of players who are not that far behind them, if they are at all.

For example, Aki starting ahead of Henshaw, JGP taking a bench spot ahead of Marrmion and McGrath, or a squad spot ahead of Cooney. Bealham ahead of Ryan etc.
Going forward, we will now see Lowe getting games ahead of the likes of Keenan, Earls, Conway or Stockdale.

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Re: Ireland v. Wales, Fri 13 Nov, 19.00

Post by heno »


munster#1 wrote:
heno wrote:
November 5th, 2020, 11:45 pm
munster#1 wrote: Correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe that Aki’s family don’t live in Ireland, and he spends is down time with them in New Zealand?
This to me would indicate that he has no long term plans to remain in Ireland, which would eliminate him from being someone who identifies as Irish.

This is not limited to Aki, the same could be said for most if not all of these recruits.
I know what you mean. But you wouldn't so limit someone who was born here such as Johnny Giles or Sonia O'Sullivan.

Fundamentally "being Irish"(or any nation) has such a varied and broad set of meanings, it essentially is meaningless. You have people who are born here, people who have lived and worked here, people who's heritage is from here, and people who have represented us on a sports team. These are different things that may or not apply to any given person. I would not be offended if Aki described himself as a new Zealander who represents Ireland. I don't feel that he needs to use the descriptor "Irish".

Note, I'm not in favour of a free for all. We have the rule. I, like a lot of us, think the 5 years is an improvement. I'm open to discussing other improvements as long as it's formula based and not "feeling" based.

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk
I largely agree with you, and I am not so against a foreigner playing for Ireland that I think we should apply a strict set of metrics to decide how Irish a person really is.

My problem is that the IRFU, through their policies and their franchises actively sought out many of these players, with a view to potentially capping them in the future.

This was a selling point that the IRFU used in luring some of them here.
The latest examples of those would be Knox and Salanoa, the main, if not the only reason that they were permitted to take up places in the Munster and Leinster academies, was their potential to play for Ireland.
This essentially makes Ireland a professional club IMO.

I understand that these are the rules, and we play within them, but we definitely exploit the rules like some others, and this is why the rules were changed.

The biggest issue for me, is that some of these players are being capped ahead of players who are not that far behind them, if they are at all.

For example, Aki starting ahead of Henshaw, JGP taking a bench spot ahead of Marrmion and McGrath, or a squad spot ahead of Cooney. Bealham ahead of Ryan etc.
Going forward, we will now see Lowe getting games ahead of the likes of Keenan, Earls, Conway or Stockdale.
I can believe a foreign lad gets a cap against Georgia in order to lock them into Ireland. But essentially that's no different to just having a look at another option.
But beyond that, it's a straight shootout. Be better than the other guy, and you'll get picked. If there is a foreign guy getting a cap, it's because farrell thinks they are better for the game plan.
Thinking there are other factors coming into play is no different than thinking omahony is only getting caps because there is a secret munster quota.

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Re: Ireland v. Wales, Fri 13 Nov, 19.00

Post by munster#1 »

heno wrote:
November 6th, 2020, 11:45 am
munster#1 wrote:
heno wrote:
November 5th, 2020, 11:45 pm


I know what you mean. But you wouldn't so limit someone who was born here such as Johnny Giles or Sonia O'Sullivan.

Fundamentally "being Irish"(or any nation) has such a varied and broad set of meanings, it essentially is meaningless. You have people who are born here, people who have lived and worked here, people who's heritage is from here, and people who have represented us on a sports team. These are different things that may or not apply to any given person. I would not be offended if Aki described himself as a new Zealander who represents Ireland. I don't feel that he needs to use the descriptor "Irish".

Note, I'm not in favour of a free for all. We have the rule. I, like a lot of us, think the 5 years is an improvement. I'm open to discussing other improvements as long as it's formula based and not "feeling" based.

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk
I largely agree with you, and I am not so against a foreigner playing for Ireland that I think we should apply a strict set of metrics to decide how Irish a person really is.

My problem is that the IRFU, through their policies and their franchises actively sought out many of these players, with a view to potentially capping them in the future.

This was a selling point that the IRFU used in luring some of them here.
The latest examples of those would be Knox and Salanoa, the main, if not the only reason that they were permitted to take up places in the Munster and Leinster academies, was their potential to play for Ireland.
This essentially makes Ireland a professional club IMO.

I understand that these are the rules, and we play within them, but we definitely exploit the rules like some others, and this is why the rules were changed.

The biggest issue for me, is that some of these players are being capped ahead of players who are not that far behind them, if they are at all.

For example, Aki starting ahead of Henshaw, JGP taking a bench spot ahead of Marrmion and McGrath, or a squad spot ahead of Cooney. Bealham ahead of Ryan etc.
Going forward, we will now see Lowe getting games ahead of the likes of Keenan, Earls, Conway or Stockdale.
I can believe a foreign lad gets a cap against Georgia in order to lock them into Ireland. But essentially that's no different to just having a look at another option.
But beyond that, it's a straight shootout. Be better than the other guy, and you'll get picked. If there is a foreign guy getting a cap, it's because farrell thinks they are better for the game plan.
Thinking there are other factors coming into play is no different than thinking omahony is only getting caps because there is a secret munster quota.

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I am definitely not stating that there is an ulterior motive to capping these players, you are trying to put words in my mouth there.

I think that where we (Ireland) have a gap we should try to plug it in any way possible.
I am just not a fan of these players coming in and playing in positions of relative strength, or that Irish rugby sign project players in positions where we do not have a weakness.
Having 9 such players in our squad is a step too far for me.

It means that 9 players who have come up through our systems, who have dreamt of playing for their country, or have turned down offers from outside Ireland to keep their dream alive, are now going to be watching the upcoming tournament from their couches.
While lads who arrived in the country 3 years previous and will most likely return home once their career is over, are playing for Ireland for the paycheque or for the opportunity to play international rugby, not really caring which crest is on the front of the jersey.

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Re: Ireland v. Wales, Fri 13 Nov, 19.00

Post by Xanthippe »

munster#1 wrote:
November 6th, 2020, 9:17 am
Xanthippe wrote:
November 6th, 2020, 3:13 am
munster#1 wrote:
November 5th, 2020, 11:46 am
Interestingly 9, or more than 1/4 of the squad are imports.
Are Ireland one of the worst countries in world rugby for this practice?

Wales squad for end of 6 Nations
George North (England)
Jonah Holmes (England)
Johnny Williams (England)
Nick Tompkins (England)
Jonathan Davies (England)
Ross Moriarty (England)
Taulupe Faletau (Tonga)
Will Rowlands (England)
Jake Ball (England)
Tomas Francis (England)



And Scotland squad
Duhan van der Merwe (South Africa)
Sean Maitland (New Zealand)
James Lang (England)
Sam Johnson (Australia)
Chris Harris (England)
Nick Grigg (New Zealand)
Ali Price (England)
Hamish Watson (England)
Blade Thomson (New Zealand)
Rob Harley (England)
Nick Haining (Australia)
Blair Cowan (New Zealand)
Cornell du Preez (South Africa)
Ben Toolis (Australia)
Sam Skinner (England)
WP Nel (South Africa)
Oli Kebble (South Africa)
Simon Berghan (New Zealand)
I didn’t say we were the worst, but we are right up there I’d imagine.

I hadn’t listed Dillane, for the same reason that I wouldn’t count the likes of Davis, North etc. as they grew up in the country that they represent, and aren’t doing it purely for professional reasons.
Same would be said for the likes of Heaslip, Rog, Sheehan before them, but if you want include them, then I suppose that is fine too.
Oops sorry - wasn't having a go. I'm not sure what happened to the text I put below the lists - I thought I'd put in a piece about how ridiculous some of the lists are with the Wales 'foreigners' list above having nine players who in another sport or a different competition would all be considered to be from one 'United Kingdom' and the same for six of the Scotland squad.

Also, I'm really surprised Pichot and his ilk never tried to claim our lads from the north were not Irish.

I will say though that I'm still to be fully convinced on the grandparents rule however, as far as I'm concerned if one or both of your parents are Irish by birth then you are too
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heno
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Re: Ireland v. Wales, Fri 13 Nov, 19.00

Post by heno »


munster#1 wrote:
heno wrote:
November 6th, 2020, 11:45 am
munster#1 wrote: I largely agree with you, and I am not so against a foreigner playing for Ireland that I think we should apply a strict set of metrics to decide how Irish a person really is.

My problem is that the IRFU, through their policies and their franchises actively sought out many of these players, with a view to potentially capping them in the future.

This was a selling point that the IRFU used in luring some of them here.
The latest examples of those would be Knox and Salanoa, the main, if not the only reason that they were permitted to take up places in the Munster and Leinster academies, was their potential to play for Ireland.
This essentially makes Ireland a professional club IMO.

I understand that these are the rules, and we play within them, but we definitely exploit the rules like some others, and this is why the rules were changed.

The biggest issue for me, is that some of these players are being capped ahead of players who are not that far behind them, if they are at all.

For example, Aki starting ahead of Henshaw, JGP taking a bench spot ahead of Marrmion and McGrath, or a squad spot ahead of Cooney. Bealham ahead of Ryan etc.
Going forward, we will now see Lowe getting games ahead of the likes of Keenan, Earls, Conway or Stockdale.
I can believe a foreign lad gets a cap against Georgia in order to lock them into Ireland. But essentially that's no different to just having a look at another option.
But beyond that, it's a straight shootout. Be better than the other guy, and you'll get picked. If there is a foreign guy getting a cap, it's because farrell thinks they are better for the game plan.
Thinking there are other factors coming into play is no different than thinking omahony is only getting caps because there is a secret munster quota.

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I am definitely not stating that there is an ulterior motive to capping these players, you are trying to put words in my mouth there.

I think that where we (Ireland) have a gap we should try to plug it in any way possible.
I am just not a fan of these players coming in and playing in positions of relative strength, or that Irish rugby sign project players in positions where we do not have a weakness.
Having 9 such players in our squad is a step too far for me.

It means that 9 players who have come up through our systems, who have dreamt of playing for their country, or have turned down offers from outside Ireland to keep their dream alive, are now going to be watching the upcoming tournament from their couches.
While lads who arrived in the country 3 years previous and will most likely return home once their career is over, are playing for Ireland for the paycheque or for the opportunity to play international rugby, not really caring which crest is on the front of the jersey.
You've painted 2 pictures there, a nice wholesome image of an Irish person, and a fairly undesirable vision of a foreigner. Its easy to like the former and dislike the latter. But where I take issue is assuming all irish are the former and all foreigners are the latter.
So we can interview all candidates and vet them for Irishness one by one, or terminate anyone's contract when negative evidence is forthcoming (as in a media statement stating they don't care about Ireland).
Or we can just treat them all as individuals who have met the requirements, pick a team and get on with it.

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munster#1
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Re: Ireland v. Wales, Fri 13 Nov, 19.00

Post by munster#1 »

Xanthippe wrote:
November 6th, 2020, 4:24 pm
munster#1 wrote:
November 6th, 2020, 9:17 am
Xanthippe wrote:
November 6th, 2020, 3:13 am



Wales squad for end of 6 Nations
George North (England)
Jonah Holmes (England)
Johnny Williams (England)
Nick Tompkins (England)
Jonathan Davies (England)
Ross Moriarty (England)
Taulupe Faletau (Tonga)
Will Rowlands (England)
Jake Ball (England)
Tomas Francis (England)



And Scotland squad
Duhan van der Merwe (South Africa)
Sean Maitland (New Zealand)
James Lang (England)
Sam Johnson (Australia)
Chris Harris (England)
Nick Grigg (New Zealand)
Ali Price (England)
Hamish Watson (England)
Blade Thomson (New Zealand)
Rob Harley (England)
Nick Haining (Australia)
Blair Cowan (New Zealand)
Cornell du Preez (South Africa)
Ben Toolis (Australia)
Sam Skinner (England)
WP Nel (South Africa)
Oli Kebble (South Africa)
Simon Berghan (New Zealand)
I didn’t say we were the worst, but we are right up there I’d imagine.

I hadn’t listed Dillane, for the same reason that I wouldn’t count the likes of Davis, North etc. as they grew up in the country that they represent, and aren’t doing it purely for professional reasons.
Same would be said for the likes of Heaslip, Rog, Sheehan before them, but if you want include them, then I suppose that is fine too.
Oops sorry - wasn't having a go. I'm not sure what happened to the text I put below the lists - I thought I'd put in a piece about how ridiculous some of the lists are with the Wales 'foreigners' list above having nine players who in another sport or a different competition would all be considered to be from one 'United Kingdom' and the same for six of the Scotland squad.

Also, I'm really surprised Pichot and his ilk never tried to claim our lads from the north were not Irish.

I will say though that I'm still to be fully convinced on the grandparents rule however, as far as I'm concerned if one or both of your parents are Irish by birth then you are too
That’s no problem at all. No offence was taken.

That is a very good point on the British players, especially given that they all have British passports as opposed to Scottish or Welsh.

I am with you on the parentage thing, I like many Irish have family living in the UK and US which were born in those countries to Irish parents.
As I’m sure you have seen yourself, many of those identify as Irish, and are probably prouder of the Irishness than many people living on our small island.

My issue mainly centres around the likes of Stander, Lowe, Kleyn, JGP, etc. who are essentially mercenaries, who have come here for financial and career reasons, and will likely go straight back to the land of their birth and regale for many years to come on how they had great “craic” helping the Paddy’s and made a good wedge whilst doing so.

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