France vs Ireland, 31 Oct - 8pm

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hugonaut
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Re: France vs Ireland, 31 Oct - 8pm

Post by hugonaut »

I took the time to watch this again on a stormy afternoon. I'll mention two things up front that repeatedly irritated/exasperated me and then not refer to them again:
i] the French TV direction, particularly overhead shots in live play;
ii] Jacob Stockdale's handling, which was farcically bad.

1. First Half There was very little wrong with our performance in the first half – you can really count our errors on the fingers of one hand. We played with composure, we targeted Ntamack well, scrummaged well, made inroads with close in carries and created very good positions to take points from. I was surprised with Sexton's decision to have Murray take a shot from all of 57m within the first couple of minutes, and extremely impressed with the quality of Murray's strike ... no question that he would have had the distance from even further out.

2. Decisions Sexton's decisions to turn down very kickable penalties in the first half [once at the start when we ended up getting mauled sideways quickly, and the other at the end with the clock in the red] were both bad decisions. The one at the end of the half ... just a nuts decision. Nuts. It's very frustrating to see the same mistake over and over again.

3. Pennos
We conceded 7 penalties, five of them were from attempted jackals: two from Tadhg Beirne, one from Stander, one from Porter one from Murray. Against that, we won five turnovers at the breakdown – two from Stander, one from Doris, one from Beirne, one from O'Mahony.

4. Bench
Our bench was obviously weak and very inexperienced, but the losing of the game was absolutely in the 'championship minutes' on either side of half time [link: https://www.the42.ie/ireland-championsh ... 0-Nov2020/], before those bench players got on the pitch.

5. Lineouts
The lineouts were frustrating ... a lot of mistakes of all sorts. Some lineouts we won, but then messed up the phase directly afterwards – that happened at least three times that I can think of. It's not a combination that has had much time together, and you've got a hooker from Ulster [Herring] and primary jumpers from Leinster [Ryan] and Munster [Beirne] ... then the replacement hooker is from Connacht!

6. Players
Henshaw was great, Ryan, Beirne and Stander very good too. Aki looked strong going forward with the ball in hand in the first half, but this was a game where he looked very one-dimensional. Hardly passed, didn't offload, his one kick was wasteful and his work off the ball is really patchy – he gets forward to latch or hit rucks well, but his sidewards movement off the ball and scramble was very ordinary in this game, not international standard at all. Ross Byrne had an absolute nightmare in his 11 minutes on the pitch, having been ordinary against Italy in his time on the pitch last week. He really looks like he has absolutely no confidence.

7. Missing
We have a lot of players to come back from injury/suspension for Six Nations 2021: Kilcoyne [31], Kelleher [22], Furlong [27], Henderson [28], Leavy [26], Ringrose [23], Larmour [23]; James Lowe [28] will come into the mix this month too. That's half a team. Earls [33] is coming back into the mix too, I'm singling him out because I think you have to be pragmatic about outside backs in their mid-30s.

8. Whatever
This upcoming Autumn Championship is a real mix 'em, gather 'em of a yoke. It's not a real tournament; it's not the Six Nations. It's up to the coaches to use it as best they see fit. For me, it's a completely free hit.

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Peg Leg
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Re: France vs Ireland, 31 Oct - 8pm

Post by Peg Leg »

munster#1 wrote:
October 31st, 2020, 10:50 pm
Peg Leg wrote:
October 31st, 2020, 9:58 pm
munster#1 wrote:
October 31st, 2020, 9:25 pm
Really don’t think Farrell should have been on the bench. Could really do with earls
Think Farrell has always been great for us tbh
I think Farrell is a great player. Just don’t think he is an impact sub.
I would have preferred Earls being sent out to empty the tank for the last 30 mins.
In fairness, there is a lot to be said for having a hammer on the bench when replacing a rapier. We'd three hammers yesterday...
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wixfjord
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Re: France vs Ireland, 31 Oct - 8pm

Post by wixfjord »

Might be a bit harsh to say this, but to me Ross Byrne just looks a level below the athleticism required for test rugby.

He deserves a shot in a full side in the Nations Cup, but I wonder has Farrell's mind already moved on to his brother...

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Dave Cahill
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Re: France vs Ireland, 31 Oct - 8pm

Post by Dave Cahill »

wixfjord wrote:
November 2nd, 2020, 9:08 am
Might be a bit harsh to say this, but to me Ross Byrne just looks a level below the athleticism required for test rugby.

He deserves a shot in a full side in the Nations Cup, but I wonder has Farrell's mind already moved on to his brother...
I agree with you on Ross.

It raises an interesting point about Saturday. People have been commenting about the paucity of our bench options, about how we won't win anything with the likes of Bealham or Heffernan or either Byrne as replacements - and it's not entirely untrue, but it's also true that none of them would be on the bench if everyone was available. To take the example of Ross, he is our third/fourth choice outhalf if everyone was available - thats actually pretty decent depth
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Oldschool
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Re: France vs Ireland, 31 Oct - 8pm

Post by Oldschool »

How much test Rugby have either R. Byrne or Heffernan actually had and some of you are writing them.
In particular how many tests have they actually started in.
When they came on the die was cast.
Byrne is in an invidious position because he has to put up with Sexton at club level.
Farrell needs to bite the bullet on Sexton and tell Leinster that Byrne should start from now on.
He may not be the ultimate solution but he has more to offer now than Sexton.
We've slagged POM off for his angry face well for what it's worth Sexton's own version of angry face when he's substituted is a lot worse because it's a public challenge to the coach. Worse than that he's the captain, that sort of example setting from the captain is unacceptable at all levels.
When any budding test player has had five starts in a row then it's time to make judgements, anything else is just agenda setting.
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ronk
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Re: France vs Ireland, 31 Oct - 8pm

Post by ronk »

If Byrne's problem was that he is a raw talent who needs experience at this level then I might have been more inclined to agree.

It's not. He's an excellent player who lacks the athleticism to be a really top outhalf at the top level. He should be decent at international level but I'd be surprised if he starts for the Lions or wins world player of the year.

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Re: France vs Ireland, 31 Oct - 8pm

Post by brenno »

Correct me if I'm wrong but Sexton's central contract runs out next June. Is a severely cash-strapped IRFU going to give a 35-36yo a new central contract - really can't see it. Likewise, the idea of taking a 38yo back to a RWC in 2023 is nonsense, many props are able to play at the top level into their late 30s, but not backs. Also, sorry but his attitude sucks and if that hissy fit when he was taken off had come from a Munster player we'd all have been up in arms

Also can't see an equally cash-strapped Leinster ponying up the sort of money Sexton is supposed to be on when they have three other 10's on their books - the two Byrnes and Frawley.

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Laighin Break
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Re: France vs Ireland, 31 Oct - 8pm

Post by Laighin Break »

Of course Leinster won't be offering him anything like the money he's on, but he would surely understand that he can no longer earn that type of money and might therefore accept a significant pay cut.

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Re: France vs Ireland, 31 Oct - 8pm

Post by Flash Gordon »

Dave Cahill wrote:
November 2nd, 2020, 9:27 am
wixfjord wrote:
November 2nd, 2020, 9:08 am
Might be a bit harsh to say this, but to me Ross Byrne just looks a level below the athleticism required for test rugby.

He deserves a shot in a full side in the Nations Cup, but I wonder has Farrell's mind already moved on to his brother...
I agree with you on Ross.

It raises an interesting point about Saturday. People have been commenting about the paucity of our bench options, about how we won't win anything with the likes of Bealham or Heffernan or either Byrne as replacements - and it's not entirely untrue, but it's also true that none of them would be on the bench if everyone was available. To take the example of Ross, he is our third/fourth choice outhalf if everyone was available - thats actually pretty decent depth
Me too. I think he's a decent Pro14 outhalf who works really hard at his game - his kicking improvement over the last couple of years has been excellent. I don't think he has it ability wise at this level and he wasn't really attacking the gain line in the way J10 does. Think we will be skipping a generation if Carbery's injury record continues to get to Ed Byrne or Johnston even. I also really rate Frawley, he reminds me of Paul Dean but it looks like the decision has been made at Leinster in favour of Byrne the younger.

Seems like a distant memory when Irish half backs were propelling the Lions to a series win!

Couple of problem positions emerging again, FB being another. I'd have Conway there and Stockdale back on the wing, Ulster fans tend to be, how should I put this, a little one eyed, and they were gobsmacked by his selection.
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ronk
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Re: France vs Ireland, 31 Oct - 8pm

Post by ronk »

In spite of Ross’s limitations he is the best backup option we have right now and it’s possible that none of the options behind him ever surpass him.

If any of them do then great, but we have to look after Ross Byrne as he could be the Irish outhalf for an extended period.

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Flash Gordon
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Re: France vs Ireland, 31 Oct - 8pm

Post by Flash Gordon »

ronk wrote:
November 2nd, 2020, 1:20 pm
In spite of Ross’s limitations he is the best backup option we have right now and it’s possible that none of the options behind him ever surpass him.

If any of them do then great, but we have to look after Ross Byrne as he could be the Irish outhalf for an extended period.
That's true. Carbery is international class but seems to be permanently crocked. Be interesting to see whether there is any attempt to rehabilitate Paddy Jackson. He's still only 28 though he obviously comes with a mountain of baggage and a 500k salary. In other news Ian Madigan is only 31, a possible stop gap to ease the next generation though?
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Re: France vs Ireland, 31 Oct - 8pm

Post by MylesNaGapoleen »

after the world cup we had and after our loss to England in the 6N earlier this year.....if you told me we would only have to beat France by 6 points to take the championship in the final game...I would have laughed at the idea.

With a lot of big players missing (furlong, henderson, ringrose, larmour, kelleher and at a stretch, leavy)...I thought we didn't do too badly.
Our lineout/maul didn't get the return it usually does from a few metres out...we fluffed a lot of great chances and didn't deserve to win on saturday but I think we didn't do so bad.

When you think of that horrible bounce for Keenan that went back over his head when he was in for a try in the 1st half and the last minute lineout in the same half when johnny went for touch instead of 3 points...we made the opportunities but just weren't the same clinical team of 2 years ago.

looking forward to what we can do when we have our full team back fit and some experimentation with casey, Cooney or blade at SH...and maybe more game time for ross. worried about stockdale at FB, he seems to have lost confidence.

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Re: France vs Ireland, 31 Oct - 8pm

Post by Ruckedtobits »

Some of the speculation about whether J10 should be replaced immediately and, if so, whether Ross Byrne has the ability for international rugby is surprising. Just over a year ago in Japan, Carty was the back-up / replacement for J10. IMO, he has started this season better than he finished last year and looks a more than capable back-up to Sexton, coupled with his real familiarity with Marmion, Aki and Henshaw.

Talk of Jackson, Madigan, Byrne jnr, Frawley, Carbury etc. is very far-fetched when Carty is fit and able and playing as well as he has been. I'd certainly be happy to see himself and Marmion start against Wales or Georgia and believe both would be worthy of selection.

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Re: France vs Ireland, 31 Oct - 8pm

Post by Oldschool »

Ruckedtobits wrote:
November 2nd, 2020, 3:23 pm
Some of the speculation about whether J10 should be replaced immediately and, if so, whether Ross Byrne has the ability for international rugby is surprising. Just over a year ago in Japan, Carty was the back-up / replacement for J10. IMO, he has started this season better than he finished last year and looks a more than capable back-up to Sexton, coupled with his real familiarity with Marmion, Aki and Henshaw.

Talk of Jackson, Madigan, Byrne jnr, Frawley, Carbury etc. is very far-fetched when Carty is fit and able and playing as well as he has been. I'd certainly be happy to see himself and Marmion start against Wales or Georgia and believe both would be worthy of selection.
TBh I was discountng Carbery, expect him we see him.
So you are right, it's between Carty and Byrne for top slot.
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Re: France vs Ireland, 31 Oct - 8pm

Post by Flash Gordon »

Oldschool wrote:
November 2nd, 2020, 6:00 pm
Ruckedtobits wrote:
November 2nd, 2020, 3:23 pm
Some of the speculation about whether J10 should be replaced immediately and, if so, whether Ross Byrne has the ability for international rugby is surprising. Just over a year ago in Japan, Carty was the back-up / replacement for J10. IMO, he has started this season better than he finished last year and looks a more than capable back-up to Sexton, coupled with his real familiarity with Marmion, Aki and Henshaw.

Talk of Jackson, Madigan, Byrne jnr, Frawley, Carbury etc. is very far-fetched when Carty is fit and able and playing as well as he has been. I'd certainly be happy to see himself and Marmion start against Wales or Georgia and believe both would be worthy of selection.
TBh I was discountng Carbery, expect him we see him.
So you are right, it's between Carty and Byrne for top slot.
Apparently not! Ireland squad has Billy Burns in it. I don't think he's the best outhalf at Ulster, he might even be third best there in terms of ability.
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Re: France vs Ireland, 31 Oct - 8pm

Post by sunshiner1 »

by Flash Gordon

Apparently not! Ireland squad has Billy Burns in it. I don't think he's the best outhalf at Ulster, he might even be third best there in terms of ability.
It's a surprise inclusion but nothing I am going to get to angry about. Carty is a known quality, that he wants to give Burns a try is not the worst thing in the world.

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Re: France vs Ireland, 31 Oct - 8pm

Post by Laighin Break »

sunshiner1 wrote:
November 5th, 2020, 11:19 am
by Flash Gordon

Apparently not! Ireland squad has Billy Burns in it. I don't think he's the best outhalf at Ulster, he might even be third best there in terms of ability.
It's a surprise inclusion but nothing I am going to get to angry about. Carty is a known quality, that he wants to give Burns a try is not the worst thing in the world.
Not sure how Carty can be a known quality with 278 minutes of international rugby!

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Re: France vs Ireland, 31 Oct - 8pm

Post by sunshiner1 »

Carty has being in enough training camps to be known by Farrell. Besides that's 278 minutes more than Burns!

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