Ireland V Italy 24th October

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LeinsterLeader
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Re: Ireland V Italy 24th October

Post by LeinsterLeader »

hugonaut wrote:
October 21st, 2020, 2:06 pm
Irish team announced:

https://www.irishrugby.ie/2020/10/21/fo ... and-squad/

1. All four debutants are Leinster players - Connors, Keenan, Ed Byrne and JGP.

2. Of the nine starting players in their 20s [Porter, Ryan, Beirne, Doris, Connors, Keenan, Ringrose, Conway, Stockdale], eight of them came through the Leinster Academy.

3. It's a credit to the work done at the Connacht Academy to see Heffernan [29], Bealham [29], Dillane [26] and Henshaw [27] all selected in a Six Nations matchday squad. Aki also got the nod, and Marmion and Jack Carty must have been in contention for selection given their form. Five Connacht players in total speaks well of the work that Pat Lam and Andy Friend did/have done.

4. Conor Murray [31] made his test debut in 2011, Peter O'Mahony [31] in 2012. The other three Munster-contracted players in the squad were produced by Leinster and Northern Transvaal. Munster's development of local talent over the last four/five years has been useless.

5. Ulster were Pro14 finalists and European Cup quarter-finalists and have only had two players selected - Herring [30] and Stockdale [24]. Obviously Iain Henderson's suspension has affected that, and injuries to Will Addison and Tom O'Toole haven't helped. But it was curious to see only two looseheads picked in the training squad and Jack McGrath completely omitted, and obviously Cooney was dropped at his first wobble in form over three seasons while others have been treated much more indulgently.
8 of the starting 15 and 12 of the 23 currently at Leinster. A good advertisement for Leo/Stuart to say to players on the fringes that moving province might not be the best move for them.

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ronk
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Re: Ireland V Italy 24th October

Post by ronk »

Happy to see Keenan starting. With the imbalanced squad it was a straight call bwtween himself and Daly.

Picking Stockdale at 15 is a hint towards starting Lowe. Interesting to see Doris ahead of POM. Not surprised on form, but a big call in its own way.

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Re: Ireland V Italy 24th October

Post by ronk »

LeinsterLeader wrote:
October 21st, 2020, 2:29 pm
hugonaut wrote:
October 21st, 2020, 2:06 pm
Irish team announced:

https://www.irishrugby.ie/2020/10/21/fo ... and-squad/

1. All four debutants are Leinster players - Connors, Keenan, Ed Byrne and JGP.

2. Of the nine starting players in their 20s [Porter, Ryan, Beirne, Doris, Connors, Keenan, Ringrose, Conway, Stockdale], eight of them came through the Leinster Academy.

3. It's a credit to the work done at the Connacht Academy to see Heffernan [29], Bealham [29], Dillane [26] and Henshaw [27] all selected in a Six Nations matchday squad. Aki also got the nod, and Marmion and Jack Carty must have been in contention for selection given their form. Five Connacht players in total speaks well of the work that Pat Lam and Andy Friend did/have done.

4. Conor Murray [31] made his test debut in 2011, Peter O'Mahony [31] in 2012. The other three Munster-contracted players in the squad were produced by Leinster and Northern Transvaal. Munster's development of local talent over the last four/five years has been useless.

5. Ulster were Pro14 finalists and European Cup quarter-finalists and have only had two players selected - Herring [30] and Stockdale [24]. Obviously Iain Henderson's suspension has affected that, and injuries to Will Addison and Tom O'Toole haven't helped. But it was curious to see only two looseheads picked in the training squad and Jack McGrath completely omitted, and obviously Cooney was dropped at his first wobble in form over three seasons while others have been treated much more indulgently.
8 of the starting 15 and 12 of the 23 currently at Leinster. A good advertisement for Leo/Stuart to say to players on the fringes that moving province might not be the best move for them.
Quite a few players who stayed at Leinster with internationals competing in the same position and pressure to move. They got picked. The ones who left didn't. Beirne was cut and fair play he took his 2nd chance.

Healy, Porter, Doris, Connors, Byrne and I'm not sure if Keenan was ever under poaching pressure as he has bolted too fast.

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munster#1
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Re: Ireland V Italy 24th October

Post by munster#1 »

hugonaut wrote:
October 21st, 2020, 2:06 pm
Irish team announced:

https://www.irishrugby.ie/2020/10/21/fo ... and-squad/

1. All four debutants are Leinster players - Connors, Keenan, Ed Byrne and JGP.

2. Of the nine starting players in their 20s [Porter, Ryan, Beirne, Doris, Connors, Keenan, Ringrose, Conway, Stockdale], eight of them came through the Leinster Academy.

3. It's a credit to the work done at the Connacht Academy to see Heffernan [29], Bealham [29], Dillane [26] and Henshaw [27] all selected in a Six Nations matchday squad. Aki also got the nod, and Marmion and Jack Carty must have been in contention for selection given their form. Five Connacht players in total speaks well of the work that Pat Lam and Andy Friend did/have done.

4. Conor Murray [31] made his test debut in 2011, Peter O'Mahony [31] in 2012. The other three Munster-contracted players in the squad were produced by Leinster and Northern Transvaal. Munster's development of local talent over the last four/five years has been useless.

5. Ulster were Pro14 finalists and European Cup quarter-finalists and have only had two players selected - Herring [30] and Stockdale [24]. Obviously Iain Henderson's suspension has affected that, and injuries to Will Addison and Tom O'Toole haven't helped. But it was curious to see only two looseheads picked in the training squad and Jack McGrath completely omitted, and obviously Cooney was dropped at his first wobble in form over three seasons while others have been treated much more indulgently.
Strangely anti Munster post there?
Did someone get out of the wrong side of the bed?

Heaping praise on Connacht, for having 1 local lad make the 23, but Munster having 2 get slated.

And no real negative feelings towards Ulster who only have 1 local player make the 23?

I am in no means saying that Munster should be looked upon as the poster boy here, but that was a very poor post, and shows a side to you that you should not be proud of.

Instead of having a provincial pissing competition, why not just get behind the 23 lads that have been picked and leave the bias BS where it belongs.

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Logorrhea
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Re: Ireland V Italy 24th October

Post by Logorrhea »

munster#1 wrote:
October 21st, 2020, 6:52 pm
Strangely anti Munster post there?
That one honestly made me laugh. Its not always about you lot you know. Really it isn't.

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Re: Ireland V Italy 24th October

Post by FLIP »

Facts are often anti Munster
Anyone But New Zealand

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Re: Ireland V Italy 24th October

Post by blockhead »

FLIP wrote:
October 21st, 2020, 8:11 pm
Facts are often anti Munster
Word
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Re: Ireland V Italy 24th October

Post by dropkick »

It is an amazing stat though, munster#1. Only POM and Murray from the Munster academy and they're over 30.


Munster have obviously worked hard in underage development and we're starting to see the fruits of it now but it will take a while for that to transplanted to ireland. Same with Ulster, both provinces' improvements in that department has been seen with the Irish U20 performances in recent years when they usually had to rely on Leinster players.


I'm happy with the team overall.
On the squad itself, I would have put Daly in instead of Henshaw. He can play back 3 or center.
Good to see Keenans rise. He look a tidy winger at U20 level but not really a stand out but I think he might surprise a few people.


There seems to be controversy over Stockdale at 15 due to some errors lately but he is a potential match winner and a massive talent. He won't be the last player Kolbe makes a fool of. He was superb for Ulster against the Ospreys and they struggled to handle him.


Happy with the backrow selections. I would have had Conan on the bench for impact. POM will steady the ship if things are not going to play in the lineout. I think Connors is a better choice than VDF. His tackling will come in handy against the French.


I would have preferred a quicker 9 but I dont think Murray has been as bad as people make out.


There's a good chance of winning the championship. The match in Paris will have no fans I presume and if its a loose game then its not impossible.

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Re: Ireland V Italy 24th October

Post by leinsterlover73 »

+ 1

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munster#1
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Re: Ireland V Italy 24th October

Post by munster#1 »

dropkick wrote:
October 21st, 2020, 10:29 pm
It is an amazing stat though, munster#1. Only POM and Murray from the Munster academy and they're over 30.


Munster have obviously worked hard in underage development and we're starting to see the fruits of it now but it will take a while for that to transplanted to ireland. Same with Ulster, both provinces' improvements in that department has been seen with the Irish U20 performances in recent years when they usually had to rely on Leinster players.


I'm happy with the team overall.
On the squad itself, I would have put Daly in instead of Henshaw. He can play back 3 or center.
Good to see Keenans rise. He look a tidy winger at U20 level but not really a stand out but I think he might surprise a few people.


There seems to be controversy over Stockdale at 15 due to some errors lately but he is a potential match winner and a massive talent. He won't be the last player Kolbe makes a fool of. He was superb for Ulster against the Ospreys and they struggled to handle him.


Happy with the backrow selections. I would have had Conan on the bench for impact. POM will steady the ship if things are not going to play in the lineout. I think Connors is a better choice than VDF. His tackling will come in handy against the French.


I would have preferred a quicker 9 but I dont think Murray has been as bad as people make out.


There's a good chance of winning the championship. The match in Paris will have no fans I presume and if its a loose game then its not impossible.
I’m not contesting that Munster have not been at a good enough level with regards to player development over the last few years.
Just stating that the post appears to be nothing more than a cheap and unnecessary dig at Munster, especially when a poster looks negatively on Munster and not at all negatively and even positively on Connacht and Ulster.

I would also question the relevance of such a discussion with regards to the upcoming game.

On the selected squad, I think this is a wasted opportunity in the half backs. Murray and Sexton are probably the most capped half back pairing in the world at this stage?
Yet Farrell is putting them out against Italy.

I would have preferred to see both players on the bench, with any other pairing starting.

I agree with you on Daly, but it would be a brave coach to leave Henshaw out of a 23.

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Re: Ireland V Italy 24th October

Post by leinsterlover73 »

leinsterlover73 wrote:
October 21st, 2020, 11:40 pm
+ 1
Agree with alot of what you say Drop kick. Forza Irlanda!

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Re: Ireland V Italy 24th October

Post by Ruckedtobits »

Logorrhea wrote:
October 21st, 2020, 7:57 pm
munster#1 wrote:
October 21st, 2020, 6:52 pm
Strangely anti Munster post there?
That one honestly made me laugh........
That's a fairly 'prickly' post there @munster #1.
@hugonaut analysed the position factually and Munster emerged poorly in an objective piece.

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Re: Ireland V Italy 24th October

Post by Twist »

This might be more suited to the Friday's Rant thread, but it isn't Friday.

I'm really sick of hearing people in the media talking up Simon Zebo and talking down the rule against picking foreign-based players. The amount of exaggeration and factual inaccuracy on RTÉ's rugby podcast was hugely irritating. "If Simon Zebo was playing in Ireland he's be our starting fullback for the next few years unquestionably" says Hugh Cahill.

What a stupid thing to say. The argument for picking Zebo is based on last weekend's game against Exeter and he didn't even last 80 minutes.

"The growing sense this week is that we need to cut our cloth (misused phrases - that's another forthcoming rant)......we don't have great strength in depth, we don't have players on Simon Zebo's level." This is just a crazy statement. He wasn't even an automatic choice when he was playing in Ireland, and we won a Grand Slam without him.

Then Bernard Jackman weighs in agreeing with Cahill, and says that "the reality is, Irish players are paid better than abroad" and follows is up with "Donnacha Ryan only left because the IRFU wouldn't give him a two year contract" and "Zebo left because he was being kicked off a national contract."

He sums up by saying "if a guy is leaving for a reason that he has to take a 50 or 60% paycut to stay and he goes abroad and proves himself....." WHO IS HE TALKING ABOUT??

Here's what Donnacha Ryan had to say about it;

"In the end, from my contract point of view, there was no difference between staying or going" and;

"In the end, it was definitely not a financial decision."

https://www.balls.ie/rugby/critics-jami ... ent-383894

Hugh Cahill chimes in again to say that the choice is between "having success at international level" or "holding steadfast to a rule that is past its sell-by date". He cites the example of an injured Joey Carbery being brought to the world cup (along with our "59 year old hooker") as proof that our squad depth isn't good enough to overlook a golden god like Simon Zebo.

They're as bad as Off the Ball. Does anyone actually agree with this line of thinking?

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Re: Ireland V Italy 24th October

Post by wixfjord »

Made a promise to myself a few years ago to avoid anything Hugh Cahill was involved in where possible.

The unfounded arrogance dripping off him is something else.

(See also - Cummiskey).

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Re: Ireland V Italy 24th October

Post by OTT »

I thought Zebo went well on Saturday. When he is good he can be very good.

If they won he might have got player of the match. But they did not win, in fact the only time he has been on a team in professional rugby that has won silverware was when he was playing for a coach who would not let him be the amazing free spirit, maverick, mercurial player he wants and deserves to be. I think that says it all really about Zebo for me.

If he was willing he could be world class but he wants to play the ways he plays and for people to think he is great and ultimately win f%~k all. Fair play to him and he is earning good money and plenty of sympathy from people who will always criticize the status quo. People with agenda's or who are biased usually.
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Re: Ireland V Italy 24th October

Post by johng »

wixfjord wrote:
October 22nd, 2020, 9:59 am
Made a promise to myself a few years ago to avoid anything Hugh Cahill was involved in where possible.

The unfounded arrogance dripping off him is something else.

(See also - Cummiskey).
He had to change his name to Hugh Cahill by deed poll.

Probably felt that Smugly McSmugsteen would hold his career back?

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Re: Ireland V Italy 24th October

Post by Oldschool »

dropkick wrote:
October 21st, 2020, 10:29 pm
It is an amazing stat though, munster#1. Only POM and Murray from the Munster academy and they're over 30.


Munster have obviously worked hard in underage development and we're starting to see the fruits of it now but it will take a while for that to transplanted to ireland. Same with Ulster, both provinces' improvements in that department has been seen with the Irish U20 performances in recent years when they usually had to rely on Leinster players.


I'm happy with the team overall.
On the squad itself, I would have put Daly in instead of Henshaw. He can play back 3 or center.
Good to see Keenans rise. He look a tidy winger at U20 level but not really a stand out but I think he might surprise a few people.


There seems to be controversy over Stockdale at 15 due to some errors lately but he is a potential match winner and a massive talent. He won't be the last player Kolbe makes a fool of. He was superb for Ulster against the Ospreys and they struggled to handle him.


Happy with the backrow selections. I would have had Conan on the bench for impact. POM will steady the ship if things are not going to play in the lineout. I think Connors is a better choice than VDF. His tackling will come in handy against the French.


I would have preferred a quicker 9 but I dont think Murray has been as bad as people make out.


There's a good chance of winning the championship. The match in Paris will have no fans I presume and if its a loose game then its not impossible.
Henshaw/Daly
I don't think Sexton will last the distance (hamstring wise) so if we needed genuine backup for centre we would be in trouble if Daly were on the bench.
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Re: Ireland V Italy 24th October

Post by Oldschool »

Twist wrote:
October 22nd, 2020, 9:53 am
This might be more suited to the Friday's Rant thread, but it isn't Friday.

I'm really sick of hearing people in the media talking up Simon Zebo and talking down the rule against picking foreign-based players. The amount of exaggeration and factual inaccuracy on RTÉ's rugby podcast was hugely irritating. "If Simon Zebo was playing in Ireland he's be our starting fullback for the next few years unquestionably" says Hugh Cahill.

What a stupid thing to say. The argument for picking Zebo is based on last weekend's game against Exeter and he didn't even last 80 minutes.

"The growing sense this week is that we need to cut our cloth (misused phrases - that's another forthcoming rant)......we don't have great strength in depth, we don't have players on Simon Zebo's level." This is just a crazy statement. He wasn't even an automatic choice when he was playing in Ireland, and we won a Grand Slam without him.

Then Bernard Jackman weighs in agreeing with Cahill, and says that "the reality is, Irish players are paid better than abroad" and follows is up with "Donnacha Ryan only left because the IRFU wouldn't give him a two year contract" and "Zebo left because he was being kicked off a national contract."

He sums up by saying "if a guy is leaving for a reason that he has to take a 50 or 60% paycut to stay and he goes abroad and proves himself....." WHO IS HE TALKING ABOUT??

Here's what Donnacha Ryan had to say about it;

"In the end, from my contract point of view, there was no difference between staying or going" and;

"In the end, it was definitely not a financial decision."

https://www.balls.ie/rugby/critics-jami ... ent-383894

Hugh Cahill chimes in again to say that the choice is between "having success at international level" or "holding steadfast to a rule that is past its sell-by date". He cites the example of an injured Joey Carbery being brought to the world cup (along with our "59 year old hooker") as proof that our squad depth isn't good enough to overlook a golden god like Simon Zebo.

They're as bad as Off the Ball. Does anyone actually agree with this line of thinking?
I'm open to correction but Ryan wanted a move to Leinster and for whatever reason (use your imagination but there's one standout reason that comes to mind) he wasn't facilitated.
Mirror, Mirror on the Wall who's the greatest player of them all? It is Drico your majesty.

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Re: Ireland V Italy 24th October

Post by Dexter »

wixfjord wrote:
October 22nd, 2020, 9:59 am
Made a promise to myself a few years ago to avoid anything Hugh Cahill was involved in where possible.

The unfounded arrogance dripping off him is something else.

(See also - Cummiskey).
Cummiskey and Cahill should be squeezed into a barrel together and dropped into the middle of the ocean.. annoying and irritating beyond words.
Dont Panic!

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Re: Ireland V Italy 24th October

Post by fourthirtythree »

Oldschool wrote:
October 22nd, 2020, 2:10 pm
dropkick wrote:
October 21st, 2020, 10:29 pm
It is an amazing stat though, munster#1. Only POM and Murray from the Munster academy and they're over 30.


Munster have obviously worked hard in underage development and we're starting to see the fruits of it now but it will take a while for that to transplanted to ireland. Same with Ulster, both provinces' improvements in that department has been seen with the Irish U20 performances in recent years when they usually had to rely on Leinster players.


I'm happy with the team overall.
On the squad itself, I would have put Daly in instead of Henshaw. He can play back 3 or center.
Good to see Keenans rise. He look a tidy winger at U20 level but not really a stand out but I think he might surprise a few people.


There seems to be controversy over Stockdale at 15 due to some errors lately but he is a potential match winner and a massive talent. He won't be the last player Kolbe makes a fool of. He was superb for Ulster against the Ospreys and they struggled to handle him.


Happy with the backrow selections. I would have had Conan on the bench for impact. POM will steady the ship if things are not going to play in the lineout. I think Connors is a better choice than VDF. His tackling will come in handy against the French.


I would have preferred a quicker 9 but I dont think Murray has been as bad as people make out.


There's a good chance of winning the championship. The match in Paris will have no fans I presume and if its a loose game then its not impossible.
Henshaw/Daly
I don't think Sexton will last the distance (hamstring wise) so if we needed genuine backup for centre we would be in trouble if Daly were on the bench.
Isn't Daly a converted centre? I think he wasn't picked just because he hasn't played in ages whereas Keenan has. If Daly had the run of games Keenan had he might have been selected with Henshaw still on the bench. Tends to be forgotten in that English match thst, and I thought it was crazy to select Henshaw at fullback and he had a dreadful game, but Earls had a mare too.
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