England v Ireland 2020 6N 23-FEB Father vs Son

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Oldschool
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Re: England v Ireland 2020 6N 23-FEB Father vs Son

Post by Oldschool »

Ruckedtobits wrote:In playing rugby at the top level, it takes a massive exercise in humility to acknowledge that your team are unlikely to win the majority of collisions and to plan your tactics accordingly. However, IMO, Ireland for a lot of the professional era, whilst prepared to adopt this outlook when playing SA, have never been prepared to accept this reality against some of the strong English teams we have faced in this century.

Everybody understands that bowing the knee to the English is just not part of our national DNA. However, starting with a premise that the particular team we are facing at any given time is physically stronger and, sometimes, better able to overcome us in particular facets of the game should compel us to figure out tactical alternatives to setting up our team to being knocking back in the vast majority of face-to-face encounters we are likely to experience, particularly in the opening salvos of a game contesting a trophy.

When Ireland appointed our current scrum coach, the view was offered that his elevation was based largely on the performance of his Province's scrum and maul, the former of which was largely based on the technical expertise of Greg Feek, whilst the latter was largely a product of the Leinster Head Coach, Leo Cullen.

Nothing I have seen since September 2019 has altered these views. From today's game in particular I offer the performance of our line-out maul on numerous occasions and the competition between Ellis Genge and Andrew Porter.

Careful study of Genge's competitions against his Premiership direct opponents will demonstrate that the smart ones (Exeter, Sale, Gloucester etc.) recognise that he is an incredibly strong opponent- but with a very short fuse. All of these teams regularly engage him in verbals (and other minor provocations) from the moment of his arrival on the pitch and they usually benefit from a reduction in his scrummaging prowess and a few kickable penalties.

Andrew Porter is also a very strong young man and generally a very good scrum operator. Today he was not and Genge could definitely claim a personal victory in their head-to-head contest. I attribute this defeat directly to Ireland's scrum coaching. Genge has weaknesses, notably of attitude and concentration. When the latter is deflected he usually loses his technique. That is precisely the area in which Porter should have been prepared today, but clearly was not.

Employing the top four inches as your primary weapon when facing the oldest foe, is not a matter of surrender, just a question of tactical warfare. For the third time in 14 months, we employed the cavalry against the artillery and there is rarely a positive outcome in that contest.

Speed, surprise and ensuring your confrontations occur at a place and circumstance of your choosing, are the tactics of wise generals faced with stronger foes. I have complete confidence that Mesrs Cullen, Lancaster & Conteponi have sufficient coaching nous (and rugby humility) to prepare tactics for our forthcoming confrontation with Saracens which do not presume that we have to win all the physical confrontations, on terms determined by our opponents, in order to emerge victorious.

Let's play some smart rugby when the opposition are bigger and stronger than us and when we can adopt more appropriate tactical approaches.
Let's accept for the moment that you are correct about our "lack" of physical humility who on the field of play was going to play smart for us.
As regards the physical side of things.
Unless we select our best forwards in their best positions then you are right. That is the very first issue that needs to be addressed, starting with primary possession and use there of.
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Re: England v Ireland 2020 6N 23-FEB Father vs Son

Post by Fan with smartphone »

I thought Porter was harshly refereed. Genge won a penalty (leading to England’s 3rd try), where he looked to be angling completely inwards. Next scrum was exactly the same and we got the penalty. England were pretty awful themselves, but defended well; so that try and the 14 points handed to them was enough.

We have a problem with passing in our backline, 100%. Murray’s has been a worry for a while. It’s not the calling card of the Aki-Henshaw partnership. Stockdale has been an awful passer to this point in his career, and it’s not Larmour’s strongest suit. Conway is the best of our back 3 and I wouldn’t really view it as a strength of his. It’s really all on Sexton. And he’s not playing that desperately well. He made a great clear out just before our first try but his general control is not close to his top level.

A not dissimilar paragraph could be written about our kicking too.

I like all those players. But to find space against England, you gotta be able to pass to it, or (to some extent) kick to it. If they get to thinking you are having difficult with those, then they are (and were) able to stop any running to daylight. They had us behind the gainline for important stages in that game.

I see some positives and the championship is still winnable, but there are more reasons to worry than to be optimistic.

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Re: England v Ireland 2020 6N 23-FEB Father vs Son

Post by Logorrhea »

Ruckedtobits wrote:Speed, surprise and .................
a fanatical devotion to the pope ;)

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Re: England v Ireland 2020 6N 23-FEB Father vs Son

Post by paddyor »

Logorrhea wrote:
Dave Cahill wrote:Did they though? They were super without the ball, but two of their three tries were foot-shootings by us. They bent our defensive line but rarely broke it
Fair point, but you could also say that they exploited the space in our defense (behind the defensive line) forced mistakes and found a way to score, twice. All this at a time when they were dominating in the air, the set piece, and winning every collision. I just thought Ford was really impressive with the variety he brought.
paddyor wrote:Was gonna say that. We’d good cover there both times.
Yeah it was scramble though and when the ball bounced that many times, its risky. How may tries has Stockdale scored collecting the bouncing ball. Cover was there but the odds are pretty good.
I can see that argument alright. Some mistakes are due to pressure and some are just mistakes (even if there is pressure) IMO. Like Hogg dropping the ball over the line in 2015 because Heaslip got to him vs Hogg dropping the ball over the line in 2020. I’d categorise the as the latter(especially Stockdale).
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Re: England v Ireland 2020 6N 23-FEB Father vs Son

Post by Morf »

Ruckedtobits wrote:In playing rugby at the top level, it takes a massive exercise in humility to acknowledge that your team are unlikely to win the majority of collisions and to plan your tactics accordingly. However, IMO, Ireland for a lot of the professional era, whilst prepared to adopt this outlook when playing SA, have never been prepared to accept this reality against some of the strong English teams we have faced in this century.

Everybody understands that bowing the knee to the English is just not part of our national DNA. However, starting with a premise that the particular team we are facing at any given time is physically stronger and, sometimes, better able to overcome us in particular facets of the game should compel us to figure out tactical alternatives to setting up our team to being knocking back in the vast majority of face-to-face encounters we are likely to experience, particularly in the opening salvos of a game contesting a trophy.
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Re: England v Ireland 2020 6N 23-FEB Father vs Son

Post by Dave Cahill »

England don't score either of their first two tries if Rob Kearney is playing.
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Re: England v Ireland 2020 6N 23-FEB Father vs Son

Post by olaf the fat »

Turned out to be a strange game, England dominated us in quite a few areas coupled with some of our key players having a shocking game - yet only 3 trys to 2????
Two of England's 3 trys were bizarre mistakes by us. We were turned over many times- have we ever, in recent times, given the ball away as much? But England could do nothing with it....


We brought home nothing, but surely failure to secure a bonus point really dents English championship chances.

On Porter v Genge, thought Porter won that battle - scrum penalty each but some of the resets could easily have been penalties to Porter. Porter scored.
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Re: England v Ireland 2020 6N 23-FEB Father vs Son

Post by MylesNaGapoleen »

Dave Cahill wrote:England don't score either of their first two tries if Rob Kearney is playing.
Yep. thought the same but larmour will learn and get better.

It was hard to watch but after gifting them 14 points and despite dominating in many areas, England didn't exactly look that great. Not even a TBP. Thought we did well to Stop them running amok like in the WC warm up game.

Maybe someone at the game can answer this - hard to see when watching on the telly and the camera follows the ball - I couldn't understand why we didn't chip their rush defense, make them turn and work the space behind - Was there acres of space or was it covered?

Astonishing to think, at the final whistle, that if Johnny had his kicking boots on we would have got a LBP. I felt it would be a one-score game beforehand and could have gone either way.

I fancy wales to take England in the next round. Cannot see Scotland stopping France but maybe stopping a TBP which leaves us with 14 and France on 17 going into the final game.

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Re: England v Ireland 2020 6N 23-FEB Father vs Son

Post by JB1973 »

MylesNaGapoleen wrote:
Dave Cahill wrote:England don't score either of their first two tries if Rob Kearney is playing.
Yep. thought the same but larmour will learn and get better.

It was hard to watch but after gifting them 14 points and despite dominating in many areas, England didn't exactly look that great. Not even a TBP. Thought we did well to Stop them running amok like in the WC warm up game.

Maybe someone at the game can answer this - hard to see when watching on the telly and the camera follows the ball - I couldn't understand why we didn't chip their rush defense, make them turn and work the space behind - Was there acres of space or was it covered?

Astonishing to think, at the final whistle, that if Johnny had his kicking boots on we would have got a LBP. I felt it would be a one-score game beforehand and could have gone either way.

not sure even Kearney can stop sexton and stockdale switching off and making such basic errors in their own dead ball area

England out muscled you (3rd time in a row although the warm up game was a write off) and this was without the vuniopla brothers

Ireland need to find a way to cope with the extra size and strength England have.

At 17 nil down you away from home you could easily have folded and got stuffed but you did come back into the game second half and managed to stop them getting a bp which says a lot for the teams mental toughness

You can still beat france and will beat Italy , but you may need to get ten points from two games to win the championship

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Re: England v Ireland 2020 6N 23-FEB Father vs Son

Post by MylesNaGapoleen »

JB1973 wrote:
not sure even Kearney can stop sexton and stockdale switching off and making such basic errors in their own dead ball area

England out muscled you (3rd time in a row although the warm up game was a write off) and this was without the vuniopla brothers

Ireland need to find a way to cope with the extra size and strength England have.

At 17 nil down you away from home you could easily have folded and got stuffed but you did come back into the game second half and managed to stop them getting a bp which says a lot for the teams mental toughness

You can still beat france and will beat Italy , but you may need to get ten points from two games to win the championship
After yesterday, for me, I cannot see England beating Wales with a TBP. Wales won't play as poorly as we did in the 1st half yesterday. I can see England sneak a win against Wales, but, no BP. Ditto for France in Edinburgh.

Which leaves the following top 3 going into the last game.
FRANCE 17
IRELAND 14
ENGLAND 13

I think the best England can do is win the triple crown this year and finish 2nd.

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Re: England v Ireland 2020 6N 23-FEB Father vs Son

Post by JB1973 »

MylesNaGapoleen wrote:
JB1973 wrote:
not sure even Kearney can stop sexton and stockdale switching off and making such basic errors in their own dead ball area

England out muscled you (3rd time in a row although the warm up game was a write off) and this was without the vuniopla brothers

Ireland need to find a way to cope with the extra size and strength England have.

At 17 nil down you away from home you could easily have folded and got stuffed but you did come back into the game second half and managed to stop them getting a bp which says a lot for the teams mental toughness

You can still beat france and will beat Italy , but you may need to get ten points from two games to win the championship
After yesterday, for me, I cannot see England beating Wales with a TBP. Wales won't play as poorly as we did in the 1st half yesterday. I can see England sneak a win against Wales, but, no BP. Ditto for France in Edinburgh.

Which leaves the following top 3 going into the last game.
FRANCE 17
IRELAND 14
ENGLAND 13

I think the best England can do is win the triple crown this year and finish 2nd.

Our defence is pretty poor at the moment, we have coughed up 7 trys in the last two games and had a few disallowed

we look very vulnerable out on the fringes and in the 13 channel , I can see tulagi may and daly cutting us wide open out there even more so if Watson plays

Ireland can take france even in paris and I wouldn't rule out the scots turning them over next game, Scotland could be 3 from 3 and they are due a big scalp at home

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Re: England v Ireland 2020 6N 23-FEB Father vs Son

Post by Peg Leg »

Logorrhea wrote:
Ruckedtobits wrote:Speed, surprise and .................
a fanatical devotion to the pope ;)
:lol:
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Re: England v Ireland 2020 6N 23-FEB Father vs Son

Post by Peg Leg »

JB1973 wrote:
MylesNaGapoleen wrote:
Dave Cahill wrote:England don't score either of their first two tries if Rob Kearney is playing.
Yep. thought the same but larmour will learn and get better.

It was hard to watch but after gifting them 14 points and despite dominating in many areas, England didn't exactly look that great. Not even a TBP. Thought we did well to Stop them running amok like in the WC warm up game.

Maybe someone at the game can answer this - hard to see when watching on the telly and the camera follows the ball - I couldn't understand why we didn't chip their rush defense, make them turn and work the space behind - Was there acres of space or was it covered?

Astonishing to think, at the final whistle, that if Johnny had his kicking boots on we would have got a LBP. I felt it would be a one-score game beforehand and could have gone either way.

not sure even Kearney can stop sexton and stockdale switching off and making such basic errors in their own dead ball area

England out muscled you (3rd time in a row although the warm up game was a write off) and this was without the vuniopla brothers

Ireland need to find a way to cope with the extra size and strength England have.

At 17 nil down you away from home you could easily have folded and got stuffed but you did come back into the game second half and managed to stop them getting a bp which says a lot for the teams mental toughness

You can still beat france and will beat Italy , but you may need to get ten points from two games to win the championship
RE: Kearney, I think the point there is:
A) Kearney would have been in the correct position to shepherd/catch the ball
2) He'd have called the mark after catching the ball in his 22 and allowed for a proper clearance rather than Murray's very sh!t clearance that put us under the pump in the first place with the auld, two quick passes away from an incident of stupidity.
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Re: England v Ireland 2020 6N 23-FEB Father vs Son

Post by Dave Cahill »

MylesNaGapoleen wrote: After yesterday, for me, I cannot see England beating Wales with a TBP. Wales won't play as poorly as we did in the 1st half yesterday. I can see England sneak a win against Wales, but, no BP. Ditto for France in Edinburgh.

Which leaves the following top 3 going into the last game.
FRANCE 17
IRELAND 14
ENGLAND 13

I think the best England can do is win the triple crown this year and finish 2nd.
I'm not sure that any result is predictable to be honest this year. Whilst some of the games have been good, a lot of the teams have mixed good rugby with some very poor rugby.

England got the France game completely wrong from the start - but in the second half were clearly the better side and if they had played that way from the get-go would have won. They were brilliant in offensive defence against Ireland but in attack needed lots of help from, well, Ireland to get the win

France have won all their games, but England and even Italy found it quite easy to go around them.

Wales have been understrength in a number of positions, but should really have beaten France, were really poor against Ireland and the Italy game was of no use to them.

Ireland were mediocre against Scotland but won, good against Wales, pretty dreadful against England where the only targets hit were their own feet.

Every result in every game for the remainder of the competition is possible - except for maybe Italy beating England in the Parisse Ego John Terry Trophy game
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Re: England v Ireland 2020 6N 23-FEB Father vs Son

Post by Peg Leg »

TBH, I came here hoping for another rant from our resident "proper rugby guy" backrower8.
So let me be the first to say:

Apart from his appalling rugby performance I was also disgusted with how Tomane Aki behaved during and after the match because it sent the wrong signals about his attitude.

When Nick Williams was jogging off as he was subbed Owen Farrell debuted his ability to use his arms in the tackle, Tomane Aki calls him Tuillagi over to shake hands, they were 10-15m 1-2m apart at the time. Then, after the final whistle, he was Mr Chatty Man with lots of the Cardiff English players. I don’t know the guy’s character and maybe that is how he generally rolls, but when you are in the middle of playing a shocker in your first competitive match for the double Champions, and then after it,I think you should keep the head down and get to the sheds ASAP intent on redoubling your efforts next time out. Not chilling and cracking jokes.

He was an embarrassment and let his teammates down too many tines in the match. I can accept defensive misreads easier than getting stripped in contact - especially with his physique.

I am very concerned by this guy and our lack of cover generally in midfield.

Luke Fitzgerald called him ‘a great bit of business’ and I agreed based largely on reputation. So far it looks like we were both wrong.
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Re: England v Ireland 2020 6N 23-FEB Father vs Son

Post by Peg Leg »

Can anyone explain to me why Itoje wasn't carded for holding onto two players on the ground for about 2-3 phases?
He is a class act; I mean, I hate when any team I follow is playing against him, but he is ridiculously good.

Anyway, what this loss really reveals: Wales are pants.
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Re: England v Ireland 2020 6N 23-FEB Father vs Son

Post by OTT »

He is probably still working out how he can blame this result/performance on Joe Schmidt...shush :lol:
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Re: England v Ireland 2020 6N 23-FEB Father vs Son

Post by LeRouxIsPHat »

Peg Leg wrote:Can anyone explain to me why Itoje wasn't carded for holding onto two players on the ground for about 2-3 phases?
He is a class act; I mean, I hate when any team I follow is playing against him, but he is ridiculously good.

Anyway, what this loss really reveals: Wales are pants.
I was more annoyed about Farrell not being carded for it. Given that Itoje's one sparked an incident and Peyper spoke to both teams you would think he'd bin Farrell for the same thing later on, especially when it was so blatant and went on for so long.

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Re: England v Ireland 2020 6N 23-FEB Father vs Son

Post by hugonaut »

LeRouxIsPHat wrote:
Peg Leg wrote:Can anyone explain to me why Itoje wasn't carded for holding onto two players on the ground for about 2-3 phases?
He is a class act; I mean, I hate when any team I follow is playing against him, but he is ridiculously good.

Anyway, what this loss really reveals: Wales are pants.
I was more annoyed about Farrell not being carded for it. Given that Itoje's one sparked an incident and Peyper spoke to both teams you would think he'd bin Farrell for the same thing later on, especially when it was so blatant and went on for so long.
Peyper is super lax with regards to rough-housing. You can get away with murder in that regard when he is refereeing.

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Re: England v Ireland 2020 6N 23-FEB Father vs Son

Post by MylesNaGapoleen »

hugonaut wrote: Peyper is super lax with regards to rough-housing. You can get away with murder in that regard when he is refereeing.
didn't he ref the ABs game in dublin after we beat them in chicago? It was a vicious game that.

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