England v Ireland 2020 6N 23-FEB Father vs Son

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FLIP
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Re: England v Ireland 2020 6N 23-FEB Father vs Son

Post by FLIP »

Dave Cahill wrote:
LeRouxIsPHat wrote:
Harsh. England were sucked in on the far side and it was crying out for a crossfield kick before we even had advantage. With advantage we had to go for it and our back three were all busy elsewhere. Good call by him to be there I think and he had a decent game.
God forbid I defend POM, but I'd agree with you there
A cross field kick yes. A cross field kick to a player who was shite when he was in his prime and well past it, blowing his hole and hiding on the wing, no.
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Logorrhea
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Re: England v Ireland 2020 6N 23-FEB Father vs Son

Post by Logorrhea »

On a positive note, was really impressed with how England identified and exploited the space. I thought they attacked well.

I thought Ryan and Healy played pretty well. Thought Murray kicked well in the first half (some of those clearing kicks were massive). Thought POM worked his ass off, and in general they defended with real character. Limiting an England team to 24 points when their pack was so massively dominant was an achievement in itself.

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Re: England v Ireland 2020 6N 23-FEB Father vs Son

Post by LeRouxIsPHat »

It didn't make much of an impact but it was good to see Doris pick and go at one stage. We were so predictable other than that...who'd have thought a pick and go could be seen as creative but it was. Also promising that Kelleher carried well and recovered after that terrible lineout.

FLIP
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Re: England v Ireland 2020 6N 23-FEB Father vs Son

Post by FLIP »

Logorrhea wrote:Looking forward to Murray's next article on the things Van Der Flier nearly did in that game.

Our backrow is completely ineffective. The odd time they look good when our front five are dominant, but they will never win us a game. Conan and Leavy are obviously still a big loss but ...... f*ck it.
It's what happens when 2 players have to do the work of 3.
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Ruckedtobits
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Re: England v Ireland 2020 6N 23-FEB Father vs Son

Post by Ruckedtobits »

Logorrhea wrote:On a positive note, was really impressed with how England identified and exploited the space. I thought they attacked well.

I thought Ryan and Healy played pretty well. Thought Murray kicked well in the first half (some of those clearing kicks were massive). Thought POM worked his ass off, and in general they defended with real character. Limiting an England team to 24 points when their pack was so massively dominant was an achievement in itself.
Agree with all of that and would love to know what Genge did to infuriate JR so much. He and Itoje are too nasty pieces and nothing would please me more that to see them both get sorted on the pitch. Itoje clearly targeted CJ in the first 25 mins and Genge has just been coached to cheat and is a very strong physical player.

We can't beat England at the power game and have to figure a way to reduce the effect of their power. Breaking down our line-outs and breaking up their pack must be a priority. France did it and we must also try.

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hugonaut
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Re: England v Ireland 2020 6N 23-FEB Father vs Son

Post by hugonaut »

LeRouxIsPHat wrote:It didn't make much of an impact but it was good to see Doris pick and go at one stage. We were so predictable other than that...who'd have thought a pick and go could be seen as creative but it was.
Well said.

We kept on going to the openside against England's rush defense. We didn't have enough animation from players taking a short line, and we didn't keep deep enough to give ourselves space to get wide ... as a result, we had neither space to play in or pace on to the ball. We half-played a strategy and it really failed. If you're going to go open so often, you need to play with much greater depth, which is riskier, because you can get caught waaay behind the gainline.

Throughout the first half, when they were all fresh, we kept on playing to the openside in that neither-here-nor-there manner and got smoked time after time in the middle of the park. If that's what they're giving you on the openside, you've got to take the blindside option more often. You can't effectively generate linespeed on the blindside as a defense, because there isn't a line ... it's one or two players.

I've said this before, but one of the fairest criticisms after RWC19 was that we didn't have two playmakers in the backline and it limited us, because a] it meant that we could only attack with our backs on one side [because we didn't have decision-makers on the left and right of the ruck] and b] if Sexton wasn't at his best we collapsed. We had the same issue today. Aki is listed as giving 2 passes today [source: https://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/playerstat ... gue=180659 ] - his opposite number [Farrell] gave 15. We look like a team who are trying to attack using a particular set of tactics without all of the backline knowing how to do that. Or maybe being able to do it.

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Oldschool
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Re: England v Ireland 2020 6N 23-FEB Father vs Son

Post by Oldschool »

Broken record time.
If you select the wrong 23 then don't be surprised if a team like England with a coach like Eddie Jones does you.
The elephants in the room haven't gone away.
POM should be dropped from the 23, against packs like England and France he's simply not at the races.
Murray should be benched for the last two games and then his Ireland career should be over.
He suffered a serious injury and he's not able to be the player he once was.
Sexton he's the captain so he stays however RB should get 30 mins against Italy.
Healy seems to be hitting the wall, no shame in that.
Stockdale needs to recover his form at Ulster however wouldn't rule out number 23 for him.
Serious consideration should be given to benching VDF and starting with a more powerful BR.
That's enough to be getting in with.
Sort out the personnel issues and then tackle the tactical stuff.
Mirror, Mirror on the Wall who's the greatest player of them all? It is Drico your majesty.

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Oldschool
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Re: England v Ireland 2020 6N 23-FEB Father vs Son

Post by Oldschool »

Can anyone explain?
1. Why was POM pushing across the scrum when on LH side of the scrum. Is it legal even
2. Why was he pushing straight when on the TH side of the scrum.
Mirror, Mirror on the Wall who's the greatest player of them all? It is Drico your majesty.

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Oldschool
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Re: England v Ireland 2020 6N 23-FEB Father vs Son

Post by Oldschool »

FLIP wrote:
Logorrhea wrote:Looking forward to Murray's next article on the things Van Der Flier nearly did in that game.

Our backrow is completely ineffective. The odd time they look good when our front five are dominant, but they will never win us a game. Conan and Leavy are obviously still a big loss but ...... f*ck it.
It's what happens when 2 players have to do the work of 3.
Cut it out mate, you're nicking my lines. :wink:
Although it's going to nice to see someone else getting the abuse for a change. :happy clapper:
Mirror, Mirror on the Wall who's the greatest player of them all? It is Drico your majesty.

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Oldschool
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Re: England v Ireland 2020 6N 23-FEB Father vs Son

Post by Oldschool »

Dave Cahill wrote:
LeRouxIsPHat wrote:
FLIP wrote:Pom on the wing like the lazy showpony he is
Harsh. England were sucked in on the far side and it was crying out for a crossfield kick before we even had advantage. With advantage we had to go for it and our back three were all busy elsewhere. Good call by him to be there I think and he had a decent game.
God forbid I defend POM, but I'd agree with you there
Farrell needs to stop playing him out of position though.
Mirror, Mirror on the Wall who's the greatest player of them all? It is Drico your majesty.

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Oldschool
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Re: England v Ireland 2020 6N 23-FEB Father vs Son

Post by Oldschool »

hugonaut wrote:
LeRouxIsPHat wrote:It didn't make much of an impact but it was good to see Doris pick and go at one stage. We were so predictable other than that...who'd have thought a pick and go could be seen as creative but it was.
Well said.

We kept on going to the openside against England's rush defense. We didn't have enough animation from players taking a short line, and we didn't keep deep enough to give ourselves space to get wide ... as a result, we had neither space to play in or pace on to the ball. We half-played a strategy and it really failed. If you're going to go open so often, you need to play with much greater depth, which is riskier, because you can get caught waaay behind the gainline.

Throughout the first half, when they were all fresh, we kept on playing to the openside in that neither-here-nor-there manner and got smoked time after time in the middle of the park. If that's what they're giving you on the openside, you've got to take the blindside option more often. You can't effectively generate linespeed on the blindside as a defense, because there isn't a line ... it's one or two players.

I've said this before, but one of the fairest criticisms after RWC19 was that we didn't have two playmakers in the backline and it limited us, because a] it meant that we could only attack with our backs on one side [because we didn't have decision-makers on the left and right of the ruck] and b] if Sexton wasn't at his best we collapsed. We had the same issue today. Aki is listed as giving 2 passes today [source: https://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/playerstat ... gue=180659 ] - his opposite number [Farrell] gave 15. We look like a team who are trying to attack using a particular set of tactics without all of the backline knowing how to do that. Or maybe being able to do it.
The problem with what you are suggesting (I agree btw) is that you need a SH who can be physical going blind.
Murray can't do that anymore, he'd lose the ball anytime he went into contact and his passing is too slow too.
That said he still should have essayed it a few times just to give England something different to deal with.
As for playmakers it would appear that we don't even have one at times.
Mirror, Mirror on the Wall who's the greatest player of them all? It is Drico your majesty.

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Dave Cahill
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Re: England v Ireland 2020 6N 23-FEB Father vs Son

Post by Dave Cahill »

Logorrhea wrote:On a positive note, was really impressed with how England identified and exploited the space. I thought they attacked well.
Did they though? They were super without the ball, but two of their three tries were foot-shootings by us. They bent our defensive line but rarely broke it
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paddyor
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Re: England v Ireland 2020 6N 23-FEB Father vs Son

Post by paddyor »

Dave Cahill wrote:
Logorrhea wrote:On a positive note, was really impressed with how England identified and exploited the space. I thought they attacked well.
Did they though? They were super without the ball, but two of their three tries were foot-shootings by us. They bent our defensive line but rarely broke it
Was gonna say that. We’d good cover there both times. Stockdales was a real brain fart, best case scenario it goes back for an English peno whether he dots it down or it runs out. If Sexton and Murray are playing better there’s a good chance we don’t end up in either of those positions. Larmour caused on them too. There was some really good defense by us in those passages. We only gave up 3 clean breaks, forced a few turnovers and even drove them back a few times. But we just couldn’t seem to competently get ourselves out of that part of the pitch.

Set piece seems to have become a bit of lottery. It’s not just one game now. Ditto the aerial game.
Ruddock's tackle stats consistently too low for me to be taken seriously as a Six Nations blindside..... Ruddock's defensive stats don't stack up. - All Blacks Nil, Jan 15th, 2014
England A 8 - 14 Ireland A, 25th Jan 2014
Ruddock(c) 19/2 Tackles

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Re: England v Ireland 2020 6N 23-FEB Father vs Son

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Twist wrote:England did nothing we didnt know they’d do. And Saracens will do it again in April. Its disappointing & worrying that we haven’t figured out a way past them yet

Only 4 match points for England is actually a poor return. Had Johnny made his kocks we’d have an undeserved LBP
It’s still hollow in the context of going for the TC and the slam but yeah. We never looked like winning that.
Ruddock's tackle stats consistently too low for me to be taken seriously as a Six Nations blindside..... Ruddock's defensive stats don't stack up. - All Blacks Nil, Jan 15th, 2014
England A 8 - 14 Ireland A, 25th Jan 2014
Ruddock(c) 19/2 Tackles

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hugonaut
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Re: England v Ireland 2020 6N 23-FEB Father vs Son

Post by hugonaut »

Logorrhea wrote:On a positive note, was really impressed with how England identified and exploited the space. I thought they attacked well.

I thought Ryan and Healy played pretty well. Thought Murray kicked well in the first half (some of those clearing kicks were massive). Thought POM worked his ass off, and in general they defended with real character. Limiting an England team to 24 points when their pack was so massively dominant was an achievement in itself.
I agree, 24-12 was a good scoreline for us given the pasting we took in the first half.

Our backfield play was super-sh*t though. To me, Sexton's fumble is forgivable – bounce of a rugby ball etc. – but Stockdale's was pretty dreadful. They've put the ball over the line, so he can do whatever he needs to, bar slapping it, to get it over the deadball line ... catch it, head it, kick it etc. Larmour is still learning on the job as a fullback and has been better than I thought he would be, but he had a poor outing this afternoon. I remember somebody [maybe RK] once saying that Girv had told him that as a fullback, you should always be in line with where the ball is when the opposition have it and you're in the backfield. Maybe thinking has changed [Girv retired a decade ago] but it has always stuck with me.

POM was the best of the backrow alright, but his opposite number won MOTM. CJ tried hard – he always does – but was bottled up. It happens. JVDF was ineffective and had one of his worst games for Ireland. The guy has beaten the All Blacks twice, he's can play test rugby at a really high level, but different teams offer different problems and he struggles against this English pack. It's not for lack of effort, but he's not a big guy by any means and he doesn't play close to the edge of the laws – he's too honest for his own good. Might have been better off with a Stander, O'Mahony and Doris unit.

I felt we were stand-offish and intimidated in the first twenty, bar Ryan. We needed to lay down a physical marker against this English pack, which is easier said than done, and we couldn't manage it.

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Re: England v Ireland 2020 6N 23-FEB Father vs Son

Post by Oldschool »

hugonaut wrote:
Logorrhea wrote:On a positive note, was really impressed with how England identified and exploited the space. I thought they attacked well.

I thought Ryan and Healy played pretty well. Thought Murray kicked well in the first half (some of those clearing kicks were massive). Thought POM worked his ass off, and in general they defended with real character. Limiting an England team to 24 points when their pack was so massively dominant was an achievement in itself.
I agree, 24-12 was a good scoreline for us given the pasting we took in the first half.

Our backfield play was super-sh*t though. To me, Sexton's fumble is forgivable – bounce of a rugby ball etc. – but Stockdale's was pretty dreadful. They've put the ball over the line, so he can do whatever he needs to, bar slapping it, to get it over the deadball line ... catch it, head it, kick it etc. Larmour is still learning on the job as a fullback and has been better than I thought he would be, but he had a poor outing this afternoon. I remember somebody [maybe RK] once saying that Girv had told him that as a fullback, you should always be in line with where the ball is when the opposition have it and you're in the backfield. Maybe thinking has changed [Girv retired a decade ago] but it has always stuck with me.

POM was the best of the backrow alright, but his opposite number won MOTM. CJ tried hard – he always does – but was bottled up. It happens. JVDF was ineffective and had one of his worst games for Ireland. The guy has beaten the All Blacks twice, he's can play test rugby at a really high level, but different teams offer different problems and he struggles against this English pack. It's not for lack of effort, but he's not a big guy by any means and he doesn't play close to the edge of the laws – he's too honest for his own good. Might have been better off with a Stander, O'Mahony and Doris unit.

I felt we were stand-offish and intimidated in the first twenty, bar Ryan. We needed to lay down a physical marker against this English pack, which is easier said than done, and we couldn't manage it.
Horses for courses.
Pick a powerful BR against the likes of England.
So of the fit and available BRs, Deegan, Doris, CJ and Ruddock would be the main contenders with Josh Murphy as an outside bet or the forgotten man Jordi.
If POM is on the wing, one is left wondering who is our acting 6, probably VDF double jobbing, his union should complain.
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Re: England v Ireland 2020 6N 23-FEB Father vs Son

Post by Ruckedtobits »

In playing rugby at the top level, it takes a massive exercise in humility to acknowledge that your team are unlikely to win the majority of collisions and to plan your tactics accordingly. However, IMO, Ireland for a lot of the professional era, whilst prepared to adopt this outlook when playing SA, have never been prepared to accept this reality against some of the strong English teams we have faced in this century.

Everybody understands that bowing the knee to the English is just not part of our national DNA. However, starting with a premise that the particular team we are facing at any given time is physically stronger and, sometimes, better able to overcome us in particular facets of the game should compel us to figure out tactical alternatives to setting up our team to being knocking back in the vast majority of face-to-face encounters we are likely to experience, particularly in the opening salvos of a game contesting a trophy.

When Ireland appointed our current scrum coach, the view was offered that his elevation was based largely on the performance of his Province's scrum and maul, the former of which was largely based on the technical expertise of Greg Feek, whilst the latter was largely a product of the Leinster Head Coach, Leo Cullen.

Nothing I have seen since September 2019 has altered these views. From today's game in particular I offer the performance of our line-out maul on numerous occasions and the competition between Ellis Genge and Andrew Porter.

Careful study of Genge's competitions against his Premiership direct opponents will demonstrate that the smart ones (Exeter, Sale, Gloucester etc.) recognise that he is an incredibly strong opponent- but with a very short fuse. All of these teams regularly engage him in verbals (and other minor provocations) from the moment of his arrival on the pitch and they usually benefit from a reduction in his scrummaging prowess and a few kickable penalties.

Andrew Porter is also a very strong young man and generally a very good scrum operator. Today he was not and Genge could definitely claim a personal victory in their head-to-head contest. I attribute this defeat directly to Ireland's scrum coaching. Genge has weaknesses, notably of attitude and concentration. When the latter is deflected he usually loses his technique. That is precisely the area in which Porter should have been prepared today, but clearly was not.

Employing the top four inches as your primary weapon when facing the oldest foe, is not a matter of surrender, just a question of tactical warfare. For the third time in 14 months, we employed the cavalry against the artillery and there is rarely a positive outcome in that contest.

Speed, surprise and ensuring your confrontations occur at a place and circumstance of your choosing, are the tactics of wise generals faced with stronger foes. I have complete confidence that Mesrs Cullen, Lancaster & Conteponi have sufficient coaching nous (and rugby humility) to prepare tactics for our forthcoming confrontation with Saracens which do not presume that we have to win all the physical confrontations, on terms determined by our opponents, in order to emerge victorious.

Let's play some smart rugby when the opposition are bigger and stronger than us and when we can adopt more appropriate tactical approaches.
Last edited by Ruckedtobits on February 23rd, 2020, 9:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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LeRouxIsPHat
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Re: England v Ireland 2020 6N 23-FEB Father vs Son

Post by LeRouxIsPHat »

hugonaut wrote: To me, Sexton's fumble is forgivable – bounce of a rugby ball etc. – but Stockdale's was pretty dreadful. They've put the ball over the line, so he can do whatever he needs to, bar slapping it, to get it over the deadball line ... catch it, head it, kick it etc.
I'm not sure Sexton's was forgivable. The bounce beat him because he let it bounce. Maybe this is harsh but I thought he was there in time to dive on it straight away. Although tbf to him I don't think he should have been the one covering and he did well to get there.

When you see the replay from behind the posts of the Stockdale one I think it looks like he's confused and thinks the ball has gone over the dead ball line and not the try line so that's why he left it. It's not the first time he's been unsure of a ball in the air. I thought he could have left the kick in the first half where Johnny May tackled him in the air. That looked like it was going straight out. Then there was the one right on the touchline against New Zealand in Japan when he stepped out with it. Stockdale is young and super talented, but he's well short of his best and this was probably a good day for James Lowe. The time where he dropped the pass from POM summed up where he is right now. It wasn't his fault that we shoveled sh!t and POM fired the ball at him awkwardly, but two years ago he'd have been on his toes and able to readjust and ride a tackle that came his way.

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Re: England v Ireland 2020 6N 23-FEB Father vs Son

Post by LeRouxIsPHat »

Just remembered one thing that really made a difference when Cooney came on, his support runs gave us an extra option in attack. It really highlighted how Murray and Sexton were just shipping the ball on without adding any value.

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Re: England v Ireland 2020 6N 23-FEB Father vs Son

Post by Logorrhea »

Dave Cahill wrote:Did they though? They were super without the ball, but two of their three tries were foot-shootings by us. They bent our defensive line but rarely broke it
Fair point, but you could also say that they exploited the space in our defense (behind the defensive line) forced mistakes and found a way to score, twice. All this at a time when they were dominating in the air, the set piece, and winning every collision. I just thought Ford was really impressive with the variety he brought.
paddyor wrote:Was gonna say that. We’d good cover there both times.
Yeah it was scramble though and when the ball bounced that many times, its risky. How may tries has Stockdale scored collecting the bouncing ball. Cover was there but the odds are pretty good.

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