England v Ireland 2020 6N 23-FEB Father vs Son

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JB1973
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Re: England v Ireland 2020 6N 23-FEB Father vs Son

Post by JB1973 »

Laighin Break wrote:
Flash Gordon wrote:Doris was our backrow leading ground maker
Just had a look there. Doris made more metres than any forward from either team! 19 metres from 6 carries (CJ made 17 metres from 18 carries).
3rd among the Irish forwards was Kelleher with 8 metres from 3 carries.
I know it was against tiring bodies, and with the game already lost, but that's pretty impressive from the young lads.

Plus he gave a superb off load to the sub 9, the lad is going to be a serious player. It's tad early but I'm saying he is a dark horse for the next lions tour, I think he is going be that good

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Dexter
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Re: England v Ireland 2020 6N 23-FEB Father vs Son

Post by Dexter »

backrower8 wrote: The offside line and sealing off and side entry are just ruining the sport.
Too brutal, too much downtime (scrums, referee lectures), too much non-application & uncertainty re laws (what has happened offside in a maul?).
Agree with this. It probably deserves it's own thread.
James Ryan took on board that Peyper wasn't reffing the breakdown and made 2 or 3 massive clearouts that would have been penalised by some other refs.
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flustered
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Re: England v Ireland 2020 6N 23-FEB Father vs Son

Post by flustered »

Ryan might have been binned (or worse) for a couple of those clearouts by another ref!

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Re: England v Ireland 2020 6N 23-FEB Father vs Son

Post by FLIP »

flustered wrote:Ryan might have been binned (or worse) for a couple of those clearouts by another ref!
So would many of the England players - but funny enough only our guys get the bad publicity.
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Re: England v Ireland 2020 6N 23-FEB Father vs Son

Post by Flash Gordon »

JB1973 wrote:
Laighin Break wrote:
Flash Gordon wrote:Doris was our backrow leading ground maker
Just had a look there. Doris made more metres than any forward from either team! 19 metres from 6 carries (CJ made 17 metres from 18 carries).
3rd among the Irish forwards was Kelleher with 8 metres from 3 carries.
I know it was against tiring bodies, and with the game already lost, but that's pretty impressive from the young lads.

Plus he gave a superb off load to the sub 9, the lad is going to be a serious player. It's tad early but I'm saying he is a dark horse for the next lions tour, I think he is going be that good
You imagine how Jack Conan is feeling at the moment? One minute you're going to the world cup as a likely Irish starter and then Doris and Deegan rip it up week after week at your club never mind at international level!

When Leavy comes back there will be some serious competition for places for both Leinster and Ireland. Leo must be delighted!
Flash ahhhh ahhh, he'll save every one of us

JB1973
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Re: England v Ireland 2020 6N 23-FEB Father vs Son

Post by JB1973 »

[Plus he gave a superb off load to the sub 9, the lad is going to be a serious player. It's tad early but I'm saying he is a dark horse for the next lions tour, I think he is going be that good[/quote]

You imagine how Jack Conan is feeling at the moment? One minute you're going to the world cup as a likely Irish starter and then Doris and Deegan rip it up week after week at your club never mind at international level!

Is there any chance the IRFU would / could step in at place them at another province?


In terms of producing back rowers over the last decade or so, Leinster must up there with anyone in world rugby.

Jennings SOB Heaslip Ruddock JDF Conan Murphy Doris Deegan Conan , plus the new ones that are coming through this season. The one I personally rated the highest of the new bunch pre injury leavy, when is he due back?

Warburton reckokns it's a mccaw thing and that all the best players are now being attracted to play in the back row because of him, is there any reason you guys can give that your producing so many ?

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Re: England v Ireland 2020 6N 23-FEB Father vs Son

Post by Morf »

Dexter wrote:
backrower8 wrote: The offside line and sealing off and side entry are just ruining the sport.
Too brutal, too much downtime (scrums, referee lectures), too much non-application & uncertainty re laws (what has happened offside in a maul?).
Agree with this. It probably deserves it's own thread.
James Ryan took on board that Peyper wasn't reffing the breakdown and made 2 or 3 massive clearouts that would have been penalised by some other refs.
I saw it this way too. Ryan was adapting to the game. It's not necessarily how he always clears out - it rules you out of a lot of carrying if you're committing so much in the previous ruck.

The publicity is a bit much though.

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Re: England v Ireland 2020 6N 23-FEB Father vs Son

Post by Ruckedtobits »

Coaching Intent and Player Actions 1 minute analysed

Kick-off: Long middle k.o. by England. Murray catches and passes to Stander who carries 3 mtrs into tackle. Ball presented well & Murray passes to PO'M who is tackled, Ireland clearout slowly but Murray finds touch 2 mtrs from halfway. A 45m relieving kick. Excellent execution

50 secs England 5-man line-out: Throw to Lawes at 2, off the top to Youngs who passes to Ford who passes to Tuilagi, running at Sexton. Irish back-line has Herring at SH position on 15m, VdF at 10, CJ in No 12 position, Sexton next, then Bundee Aki, then Henshaw. Sexton (rt shoulder), then CJ (two hands) make contact with Tuilagi 8 mtrs behind gain line, but he carries a further 9 m to present ball to Youngs just short of half-way line. Tactical mistake by Irish Coaches.

VdF ( our best tackler) was never in position to make a tackle on either Ford or Tuilagi. Neither Sexton nor CJ make any realistic attempt to tackle Tuilagi's legs - neither ever tackle low. Ireland lose opportunity to stop English possession behind their pack and their gain line.

55 secs English ruck ball & kick: Tuilagi presents ball, Youngs picks & passes to Ford, who kicks standing from 12m back, directly behind ruck, with Daley, Farrell & May (all marginally offside) as chasers on Ford's right. Bundee, Henshaw & Stockdale are all within 15-20 mtrs of where Larmour arrives to catch the ball, 7m behthd the Irish 10m line and in line with our left goalpost. Neither Bundee nor Henshaw make any effective block of Daley following up at full speed and he passes both on Irish 10m line and arrives early to compete with Larmour, with the disadvantage that the ball is coming from behind him. Larmour does not use his momentum to jump and compete, possibly because he mistimed his arrival, and Daley catches the bobbling ball as English forwards arrive to complete what is effectively the first 'turnover' of the game. One minute has been completed. Multiple Irish player errors.

Bundee & Henshaw had to get in positions to disrupt (obstruct) Daley's line of attack of this kick. There was a hang time of 4 secs and they had a 15m advantage in distance over Daley to where the ball would alight. Larmour had the momentum to jump higher than the early-arriving Daley and dominate the catch. Stockdale should have already been moving to cover behind Larmour as he was competing in the air. None of these four Irish players executed what the Coaches (or their team-mates) would have expected of them.

Commentary: This brief analysis of the very first minute of Saturday's game attempts to show in microcosm what occurred throughout the first half of that encounter. It is the sort of point-by-point analysis that the Leinster coaches routinely undertake to demonsrate to players the tactical awareness and skills necessary at the top level.

Nothing within the above analysis is outside the capacity of the Irish players involved. e.g. there's no suggestion that Sexton should have smashed Tuilagi backwards wiih his first contact. SEXTON SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN THE PLAYER MAKING THIS CONTACT. This was a coaching flaw. However, none of Bundee, Henshaw, Larmour or Stockdale should have any satisfaction with their actions to safely field Ford's first kick. Had that been secured and the subsequent ruck ball presented Ireland would have had the opportunity to kick at an English back-field occupied solely by Ford covering a 60m x 75m area.

The cold light of day usually provides the best circumstances for rugby analysis. However much we recognise that our Coaches and best players perform in a very pressurised environment, they must also be encouraged to prepare better for that stage in order to avoid repeating these mistakes.

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Re: England v Ireland 2020 6N 23-FEB Father vs Son

Post by Twist »

Flash Gordon wrote:
backrower8 wrote:Genge’s scrummaging was so ridiculously illegal. We got one scrum penalty out of it but had two against us despite Genge being on the same angle for all 3. Marler also came hard on the angle in 1 scrum. It is so clear from the overhead cameras so why isn’t the TMO calling it?

The sport is losing ground. Too many rules but WorldRugby won’t allow the rules to be properly applied in pro-rugby as the tv audiences wouldn’t accept it. Then it becomes a farce as rules are ignored and players and supporters and viewers don’t know what to expect match to match or even during matches.

The offside line and sealing off and side entry are just ruining the sport.

These days I rarely watch matches my teams aren’t playing in (Wales vs France was a rare gem) and I can see a day when I won’t watch matches at all. Too brutal, too much downtime (scrums, referee lectures), too much non-application & uncertainty re laws (what has happened offside in a maul?).

If you go to games the atmosphere is usually cr@p and then you have to stand and sit 20+ times for the drinkers/ toilet crew and listening to people around you talking about anything but the game.

Now the Private Capital financière are going to start messing around with the golden goose.

I have enjoyed rugby with a passion for 45 years but the tide is slowly going out for me.

I didn’t feel that much better after the two 6N wins btw.
Yes, Genge's scrummaging was ridiculously illegal. Maybe stick a camera over the scrum and get the TMO to view. Agree on the offside line too. It's not the law that's the problem it's the application. Our last game against the Cheetahs was a case in point, they weren't even trying. What on earth is the TJ looking at???
Remember Joy Neville hammered us in Ravenhill for being constantly offside? I hoped that’d be the start of it making a comeback, but it seems to have been a one-night-only deal

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Dexter
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Re: England v Ireland 2020 6N 23-FEB Father vs Son

Post by Dexter »

Ruckedtobits wrote:Coaching Intent and Player Actions 1 minute analysed

Kick-off: Long middle k.o. by England. Murray catches and passes to Stander who carries 3 mtrs into tackle. Ball presented well & Murray passes to PO'M who is tackled, Ireland clearout slowly but Murray finds touch 2 mtrs from halfway. A 45m relieving kick. Excellent execution

50 secs England 5-man line-out: Throw to Lawes at 2, off the top to Youngs who passes to Ford who passes to Tuilagi, running at Sexton. Irish back-line has Herring at SH position on 15m, VdF at 10, CJ in No 12 position, Sexton next, then Bundee Aki, then Henshaw. Sexton (rt shoulder), then CJ (two hands) make contact with Tuilagi 8 mtrs behind gain line, but he carries a further 9 m to present ball to Youngs just short of half-way line. Tactical mistake by Irish Coaches.

VdF ( our best tackler) was never in position to make a tackle on either Ford or Tuilagi. Neither Sexton nor CJ make any realistic attempt to tackle Tuilagi's legs - neither ever tackle low. Ireland lose opportunity to stop English possession behind their pack and their gain line.

55 secs English ruck ball & kick: Tuilagi presents ball, Youngs picks & passes to Ford, who kicks standing from 12m back, directly behind ruck, with Daley, Farrell & May (all marginally offside) as chasers on Ford's right. Bundee, Henshaw & Stockdale are all within 15-20 mtrs of where Larmour arrives to catch the ball, 7m behthd the Irish 10m line and in line with our left goalpost. Neither Bundee nor Henshaw make any effective block of Daley following up at full speed and he passes both on Irish 10m line and arrives early to compete with Larmour, with the disadvantage that the ball is coming from behind him. Larmour does not use his momentum to jump and compete, possibly because he mistimed his arrival, and Daley catches the bobbling ball as English forwards arrive to complete what is effectively the first 'turnover' of the game. One minute has been completed. Multiple Irish player errors.

Bundee & Henshaw had to get in positions to disrupt (obstruct) Daley's line of attack of this kick. There was a hang time of 4 secs and they had a 15m advantage in distance over Daley to where the ball would alight. Larmour had the momentum to jump higher than the early-arriving Daley and dominate the catch. Stockdale should have already been moving to cover behind Larmour as he was competing in the air. None of these four Irish players executed what the Coaches (or their team-mates) would have expected of them.

Commentary: This brief analysis of the very first minute of Saturday's game attempts to show in microcosm what occurred throughout the first half of that encounter. It is the sort of point-by-point analysis that the Leinster coaches routinely undertake to demonsrate to players the tactical awareness and skills necessary at the top level.

Nothing within the above analysis is outside the capacity of the Irish players involved. e.g. there's no suggestion that Sexton should have smashed Tuilagi backwards wiih his first contact. SEXTON SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN THE PLAYER MAKING THIS CONTACT. This was a coaching flaw. However, none of Bundee, Henshaw, Larmour or Stockdale should have any satisfaction with their actions to safely field Ford's first kick. Had that been secured and the subsequent ruck ball presented Ireland would have had the opportunity to kick at an English back-field occupied solely by Ford covering a 60m x 75m area.

The cold light of day usually provides the best circumstances for rugby analysis. However much we recognise that our Coaches and best players perform in a very pressurised environment, they must also be encouraged to prepare better for that stage in order to avoid repeating these mistakes.
Thanks, that's really good! It's also encouraging in a way, as they are mostly fixable coaching/positional/individual errors - and it provides a bit more than the overly simplistic "sure, England just outmuscled us and there was nothing we could do about it, we're doomed forever more" commentary.
Dont Panic!

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MylesNaGapoleen
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Re: England v Ireland 2020 6N 23-FEB Father vs Son

Post by MylesNaGapoleen »

Ruckedtobits wrote:Coaching Intent and Player Actions 1 minute analysed

Kick-off: Long middle k.o. by England. Murray catches and passes to Stander who carries 3 mtrs into tackle. Ball presented well & Murray passes to PO'M who is tackled, Ireland clearout slowly but Murray finds touch 2 mtrs from halfway. A 45m relieving kick. Excellent execution

50 secs England 5-man line-out: Throw to Lawes at 2, off the top to Youngs who passes to Ford who passes to Tuilagi, running at Sexton. Irish back-line has Herring at SH position on 15m, VdF at 10, CJ in No 12 position, Sexton next, then Bundee Aki, then Henshaw. Sexton (rt shoulder), then CJ (two hands) make contact with Tuilagi 8 mtrs behind gain line, but he carries a further 9 m to present ball to Youngs just short of half-way line. Tactical mistake by Irish Coaches.

VdF ( our best tackler) was never in position to make a tackle on either Ford or Tuilagi. Neither Sexton nor CJ make any realistic attempt to tackle Tuilagi's legs - neither ever tackle low. Ireland lose opportunity to stop English possession behind their pack and their gain line.

55 secs English ruck ball & kick: Tuilagi presents ball, Youngs picks & passes to Ford, who kicks standing from 12m back, directly behind ruck, with Daley, Farrell & May (all marginally offside) as chasers on Ford's right. Bundee, Henshaw & Stockdale are all within 15-20 mtrs of where Larmour arrives to catch the ball, 7m behthd the Irish 10m line and in line with our left goalpost. Neither Bundee nor Henshaw make any effective block of Daley following up at full speed and he passes both on Irish 10m line and arrives early to compete with Larmour, with the disadvantage that the ball is coming from behind him. Larmour does not use his momentum to jump and compete, possibly because he mistimed his arrival, and Daley catches the bobbling ball as English forwards arrive to complete what is effectively the first 'turnover' of the game. One minute has been completed. Multiple Irish player errors.

Bundee & Henshaw had to get in positions to disrupt (obstruct) Daley's line of attack of this kick. There was a hang time of 4 secs and they had a 15m advantage in distance over Daley to where the ball would alight. Larmour had the momentum to jump higher than the early-arriving Daley and dominate the catch. Stockdale should have already been moving to cover behind Larmour as he was competing in the air. None of these four Irish players executed what the Coaches (or their team-mates) would have expected of them.

Commentary: This brief analysis of the very first minute of Saturday's game attempts to show in microcosm what occurred throughout the first half of that encounter. It is the sort of point-by-point analysis that the Leinster coaches routinely undertake to demonsrate to players the tactical awareness and skills necessary at the top level.

Nothing within the above analysis is outside the capacity of the Irish players involved. e.g. there's no suggestion that Sexton should have smashed Tuilagi backwards wiih his first contact. SEXTON SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN THE PLAYER MAKING THIS CONTACT. This was a coaching flaw. However, none of Bundee, Henshaw, Larmour or Stockdale should have any satisfaction with their actions to safely field Ford's first kick. Had that been secured and the subsequent ruck ball presented Ireland would have had the opportunity to kick at an English back-field occupied solely by Ford covering a 60m x 75m area.

The cold light of day usually provides the best circumstances for rugby analysis. However much we recognise that our Coaches and best players perform in a very pressurised environment, they must also be encouraged to prepare better for that stage in order to avoid repeating these mistakes.
v interesting. thanks for sharing that.

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