Ireland v Wales Sat 2.15

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desperado
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Re: Ireland v Wales Sat 2.15

Post by desperado »

Oldschool wrote:Cooney and Byrne on the pitch five minutes and try scored.
Imagine what they could do in 80 minutes.
D'Arcy put it very well, it depends on what colour glasses you're wearing.
You're borderline delusional.

wixfjord
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Re: Ireland v Wales Sat 2.15

Post by wixfjord »

desperado wrote:
Oldschool wrote:Cooney and Byrne on the pitch five minutes and try scored.
Imagine what they could do in 80 minutes.
D'Arcy put it very well, it depends on what colour glasses you're wearing.
You're borderline delusional.
Nah they'd score 16 tries if they were on for the full 80!

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artaneboy
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Re: Ireland v Wales Sat 2.15

Post by artaneboy »

Oldschool wrote:
OTT wrote:
Dave Cahill wrote:If another scrum half had played as well as Murray did today, the hospitals of Dublin would be full of people who had masturbated themselves into a coma because of it
He was magnificent. Delighted for him, delighted we have him.
No he wasn't.
I’ve criticised him in the past- and I’d still favour Cooney as first choice, but Murray was undoubtedly good today. Not great- those hospitals are safe from onanists, but he was much better than of late.


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Oldschool
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Re: Ireland v Wales Sat 2.15

Post by Oldschool »

desperado wrote:
Oldschool wrote:Cooney and Byrne on the pitch five minutes and try scored.
Imagine what they could do in 80 minutes.
D'Arcy put it very well, it depends on what colour glasses you're wearing.
You're borderline delusional.
Not really, just showing how easy it is to spin a player's performance.
Posters conveniently ignored two very poor decisions by Murray, the decision to tap a peno that should have been kicked to touch and/or the decision to break about 5 meters from the Welsh try line.
Facts not illusions or delusional either.
Mirror, Mirror on the Wall who's the greatest player of them all? It is Drico your majesty.

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MylesNaGapoleen
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Re: Ireland v Wales Sat 2.15

Post by MylesNaGapoleen »

Oldschool wrote:
desperado wrote:
Oldschool wrote:Cooney and Byrne on the pitch five minutes and try scored.
Imagine what they could do in 80 minutes.
D'Arcy put it very well, it depends on what colour glasses you're wearing.
You're borderline delusional.
Not really, just showing how easy it is to spin a player's performance.
Posters conveniently ignored two very poor decisions by Murray, the decision to tap a peno that should have been kicked to touch and/or the decision to break about 5 meters from the Welsh try line.
Facts not illusions or delusional either.
I thought Murray had an OK game. Agree about the tapped penalty but you can see he got the nod from Johnny to try it.
As for the Ross Byrne & Cooney thing. Wales were banjaxed at that stage. They could have put on a junior cup duo at that stage.

Ruckedtobits
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Re: Ireland v Wales Sat 2.15

Post by Ruckedtobits »

Reviewing yesterday's game, it is very interesting to look at Wales' tactical approach of going to 'side-to-side' for 3 to 5 phases to try and alter Ireland's defensive spacing before then trying a succession of inside offloads to capitalise on the wider channels created by the initial lateral passes.

Many of those inside offloads are executed very late i.e. just before taking the tackle and many of them are marginally 'flat' or forward and very difficult to judge, unless the referee is in the perfect position. However, they were executed with such regularity in the first half that it is highly likely that this was deliberate tactic. In the second half, Ireland were far more aware of their defensive spacing and Wales changed their tactics by passing more often to a player running late and straight, slightly against the defensive grain, as Parkes did for his 'almost' try.

Ireland's defense was better organised than last week and on numerous occasions, two or more players combined to make a dominant tackle on a ball carrier in the 4th or 5th phase of attack. This suggests a real recognition by Irish players of the importance of taking the opportunity when the ball at the breakdown has been slowed to ensure that the next tackle is dominant and breaks up the momentum of the attack.This was one of the features of the SA defence in both the S/F and Final of RWC2019.

The other significant change in the Irish game plan was attacking or counter-attacking from deep defensive positions where Larmour, Sexton, Henshaw and Bundee all carried ball at opponents but looked for wide options to escape from their own Red zone. On several occasions the result was a long relieving kick into the mid-field area in which there were very few Welsh players who didn't have the support to counter-attack themselves.

Little tweaks in our style but highly effective and proof that Coaches are figuring out what might work and our players are confident enough to try it.

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Re: Ireland v Wales Sat 2.15

Post by hugonaut »

dropkick wrote:Great day at the office for Farrell. Whatever about tactics and player selections, the team look happy, motivated and preformed under pressure. Getting the top 2 inches right is half the battle.


They attacked Wales in a variety of ways which stretched the Welsh defence. The players looked comfortable and even enjoyed it. Instead of a standard clearance from near their own line, Sexton made a break, passed to Conway and his banana kick landed near the Welsh 22m line. It won't always pay off but overall it adds more unpredictability to the attack which in turn makes it harder for the opposition.


A few weeks ago I said I didn't want Henshaw in the team but I thought he was the best player in the pitch today when he was on. There was way more variety to his game than trucking it up and it was like watching himself and Aki play for Connacht again. Mike Catt already having an influence.


They tightened things up in the last quarter which turned out to be the right thing to do.


Not a perfect performance but they have momentum now going to Twickenham.


As for Wales, their attack looked very slick at times but I think that they'll miss the steel Gatland installed into them which I will not miss.
I thought Conway had an outstanding match. Everything he did, he did well – great kicking, great competing in the air, great tackling and a well-taken try. His decision-making was spotless. Henshaw was really lively at 13, as he was in the last game he played against Wales, the warm-up at Lansdowne Road.

Overall, a super performance. These Welsh lads won a Grand Slam last year and were very, very competitive in a World Cup semi-final against the eventual winners. In terms of coaching, they're only going through the same changes we're going through. I was over in Cardiff for the equivalent game last year, and we were really disappointing. This time out we were really exciting. Well done the lads!

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MylesNaGapoleen
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Re: Ireland v Wales Sat 2.15

Post by MylesNaGapoleen »

Ruckedtobits wrote:Reviewing yesterday's game, it is very interesting to look at Wales' tactical approach of going to 'side-to-side' for 3 to 5 phases to try and alter Ireland's defensive spacing before then trying a succession of inside offloads to capitalise on the wider channels created by the initial lateral passes.

Many of those inside offloads are executed very late i.e. just before taking the tackle and many of them are marginally 'flat' or forward and very difficult to judge, unless the referee is in the perfect position. However, they were executed with such regularity in the first half that it is highly likely that this was deliberate tactic. In the second half, Ireland were far more aware of their defensive spacing and Wales changed their tactics by passing more often to a player running late and straight, slightly against the defensive grain, as Parkes did for his 'almost' try.
Agree completely. Edge of the seat stuff and a refreshing change to warrenball. Gatland is an excellent coach and am a fan but much prefer Pivacs attacking style to Gatlands. Not unlike the scarlets of a few seasons ago.

Larmours counter attacking (and conway - who was brilliant yesterday) is similar edge of the seat stuff. He is incredible in busy traffic with no space to work with. I wonder if Farrell\Catt reign that in for the English game - Larmour sniping\stepping away from support leaves him vulnerable for easy turnovers with space behind.

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Re: Ireland v Wales Sat 2.15

Post by Blueberry »

A joy to watch that game, a huge improvement over the Scotland game everywhere. Murray noticeably faster getting the ball away which made a phenomenal difference, he only slipped back into his recent form on a few occasions - suspect he has been coached to hell this week. He has to understand that his one and only job is to get to that ruck and shift the ball instantly, anything else is a distant consideration. His box kicking poor though and I just wish we'd reduce it significantly. The pressure from Cooney is working, fine balance now between starting him or Cooney. I feel you have to reward improvement though Murray should start v England but would like Cooney to get more time to show his wares. This subbing with a few minutes to go is pointless in a hotly contested position. Cooney could have come on much earlier.

Huge game from Henshaw, he was outstanding and my MOM despite only being on the pitch for just over half the game. He was a class above. Larmour's try a thing of perfection, he is gold-dust and Sexton was at his combative best all game. He is a tough nugget and we will miss him hugely when he finally packs up, a natural leader and talisman. Conway delivered a pitch perfect performance, very efficient, Stockdale strangely quiet and I wonder would they consider giving Dave a run as he just seems to find ways to get involved. Aki is limited but did what he does but he's not a long term option there, we need more creativity.

Pack did well all game, Furlong is going well, Healy looks a touch out of sorts. Don't think Herring is worth persisting with, he's limited but gives it everything. Hopefully Kelleher can continue his rise as his ceiling looks much higher. Would still prefer to have Cronin there v Herring. Second row is a tough one. Ryan must start but I'm more and more leaning towards Toner playing 55-60 mins and Henderson being an impact sub. I just feel his lineout work is too important and our maul is always better with him as the centerpoint. Backrow, Stander continues to impress defensively. I really feel he has to be competing with Ruddock for 6. VDF nailed on at 7 and then Deegan and Doris and Conan scrap for 8. POM offers good lineout support but still offers nothing going forward and I feel we need to move on there.

All in all though a very positive performance and with England regressing a win in Twickers is not beyond the beyond and I was not optimistic about that a few weeks back.

Well done all.

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Re: Ireland v Wales Sat 2.15

Post by LeRouxIsPHat »

Blueberry wrote:A joy to watch that game, a huge improvement over the Scotland game everywhere. Murray noticeably faster getting the ball away which made a phenomenal difference, he only slipped back into his recent form on a few occasions - suspect he has been coached to hell this week. He has to understand that his one and only job is to get to that ruck and shift the ball instantly, anything else is a distant consideration. His box kicking poor though and I just wish we'd reduce it significantly. The pressure from Cooney is working, fine balance now between starting him or Cooney. I feel you have to reward improvement though Murray should start v England but would like Cooney to get more time to show his wares. This subbing with a few minutes to go is pointless in a hotly contested position. Cooney could have come on much earlier.
Thought the sub was a tricky one. Murray was having his best game in nearly two years (it really is that long at this stage!) so I can see why they wanted to keep it going. I thought the shot of himself and Johnny was interesting, it looked like they were both delighted/relieved that real Murray was back...although not sure Id have enjoyed it if I was Cooney! One swallow doesn't make a summer but if he's back to being fit and is feeling confident then fingers crossed he'll perform consistently again. It's a game changer for us if he can, really does transform my expectations of what we can do this year.

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Re: Ireland v Wales Sat 2.15

Post by ronk »

The pack gets easier go forward if there's a wide threat.

A scrumhalf is going to focus on delivery when he is getting good ball, the backline is setup quickly and they are executing well in attack.

There's an element of chicken and egg over Murray's performance. He did well and so did Cooney when he came on. It's nice that we have 3 scrumhalves playing at international standard right now, & more challenging to get there.

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Re: Ireland v Wales Sat 2.15

Post by Hippo »

Conway should have been MOTM, Quinlan really is a parody of himself sometimes. Henshaw and Sexton also really stood out for me, Sexton's timing of the pass was a thing of beauty.

I don't think Stander ever supports his weight when jackaling!
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Oldschool
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Re: Ireland v Wales Sat 2.15

Post by Oldschool »

Ruckedtobits wrote:Reviewing yesterday's game, it is very interesting to look at Wales' tactical approach of going to 'side-to-side' for 3 to 5 phases to try and alter Ireland's defensive spacing before then trying a succession of inside offloads to capitalise on the wider channels created by the initial lateral passes.

Many of those inside offloads are executed very late i.e. just before taking the tackle and many of them are marginally 'flat' or forward and very difficult to judge, unless the referee is in the perfect position. However, they were executed with such regularity in the first half that it is highly likely that this was deliberate tactic. In the second half, Ireland were far more aware of their defensive spacing and Wales changed their tactics by passing more often to a player running late and straight, slightly against the defensive grain, as Parkes did for his 'almost' try.

Ireland's defense was better organised than last week and on numerous occasions, two or more players combined to make a dominant tackle on a ball carrier in the 4th or 5th phase of attack. This suggests a real recognition by Irish players of the importance of taking the opportunity when the ball at the breakdown has been slowed to ensure that the next tackle is dominant and breaks up the momentum of the attack.This was one of the features of the SA defence in both the S/F and Final of RWC2019.

The other significant change in the Irish game plan was attacking or counter-attacking from deep defensive positions where Larmour, Sexton, Henshaw and Bundee all carried ball at opponents but looked for wide options to escape from their own Red zone. On several occasions the result was a long relieving kick into the mid-field area in which there were very few Welsh players who didn't have the support to counter-attack themselves.

Little tweaks in our style but highly effective and proof that Coaches are figuring out what might work and our players are confident enough to try it.
As you have said, the Welsh passing, with very little space, was very dangerous. By the end of the 6Ns they could be cutting teams open with it.
It's perhaps something both Ireland and Leinster should be looking at.
The most influential player on the pitch was Robbie Henshaw, he created so much space for the rest of the backs. Had he stayed on the pitch for the 80mins he would undoubtedly have got mom.
It's no coincidence that Wales prospered one he went off.
Joe's reign is over and the players need to put that behind them, the Wales game, the result and the manner in which it was achieved gives them the opportunity to do so.
Someone, I don't know who (might have been Shane Williams) said that back threes need time together.
Larmour, Conway and Stockdale are hugely different but complimentary players we could be seeing the dawn of a lethal combination.
The IRFU however need to be very careful "moving" players between provinces, there's no doubt that Conway's development has been hindered by his move to Munster, he should have been prevented from moving.
It's one thing to move an experienced player, quite another to allow a young innocent to move.
Healy struggled a bit at scrum (ref I know, I know but still) and he had a long day at the office against Scotland but at some point the next man in line has to get the call.
Great to see Furlong looking more interested.
Herring hasn't disappointed either, Farrell is grooming Kelleher nicely.
Henderson was off against Wales, maybe he should leave the off field commentary to someone else or better wait until he's writing his book.
He doesn't need the distraction, Kruis and Itoje are where he needs to be focusing. Speaking of SRs is Alun Wyn nearing the end, or the beginning of the end.
Back row, did very well, will Farrell go back to CJ, VDF and CD for the England game. We need more carriers than CJ.
To end on a positive note, wasn't it great to have such an impactful bench available.
Congrats to Deegan on getting his first cap, may there be many more - Poor Jack Conan.
Finally, a good day at the office for the coaching team.
Mirror, Mirror on the Wall who's the greatest player of them all? It is Drico your majesty.

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desperado
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Re: Ireland v Wales Sat 2.15

Post by desperado »

Agree OS on Henshaw; he surely would have been MOTM if he continued for the full game. 90metres, in 45 mins; joint second in metres made for Ireland (Larmour 103, Aki 90). His carries were mostly in heavy traffic, showed great power, nice footwork and was always looking for the offload. Parkes was Wales best by a long shot for metres carried (93m), next best being McNicholl(54), Faletau (50). Ireland had 10 line breaks to Wales 2; Wales had 13 offloads to our 5 If we had someone on Henshaws shoulder more often in the the first half where he was looking to offload we could have cut them to ribbons. (Stats from 6N https://d2cx26qpfwuhvu.cloudfront.net/s ... les-EN.pdf)

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Re: Ireland v Wales Sat 2.15

Post by Twist »

One disappointment was our penalty count. Its been way too high in both matches. A couple of them were bad calls but others were totally unnecessary

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Re: Ireland v Wales Sat 2.15

Post by LeRouxIsPHat »

Twist wrote:One disappointment was our penalty count. Its been way too high in both matches. A couple of them were bad calls but others were totally unnecessary
Hopefully it's partly that we're just getting used to the changes and as we get more comfortable we'll trust our systems and not force anything.

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Re: Ireland v Wales Sat 2.15

Post by LeRouxIsPHat »

desperado wrote:Agree OS on Henshaw; he surely would have been MOTM if he continued for the full game. 90metres, in 45 mins; joint second in metres made for Ireland (Larmour 103, Aki 90). His carries were mostly in heavy traffic, showed great power, nice footwork and was always looking for the offload. Parkes was Wales best by a long shot for metres carried (93m), next best being McNicholl(54), Faletau (50). Ireland had 10 line breaks to Wales 2; Wales had 13 offloads to our 5 If we had someone on Henshaws shoulder more often in the the first half where he was looking to offload we could have cut them to ribbons. (Stats from 6N https://d2cx26qpfwuhvu.cloudfront.net/s ... les-EN.pdf)
Agree on Henshaw having a great game but I did still think we were a bit lateral at times. The time he bumped Tompkins was a perfect example. He did really well and I'm sure we did want to isolate Tompkins so it was job done in a sense, but a better defender (or maybe even just Tompkins in a Sarries jersey) does better there and our support players can't clear out because they're not going forward. It happened quite a few times in this game and last week.

One other thing to work on was that we seemed to be confused about who was claiming kicks on a couple of occasions. One was on the far wing as you look on tv, and another was on the 22. Nearly two collisions/dropped balls when we weren't under any pressure.


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MylesNaGapoleen
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Re: Ireland v Wales Sat 2.15

Post by MylesNaGapoleen »

Twist wrote:One disappointment was our penalty count. Its been way too high in both matches. A couple of them were bad calls but others were totally unnecessary
Stander had a great game but he gave away a few despite Poite shouting at him to release. eventually got the yellow because of same.
TV coverage I saw shared the ref mic conversation between Johnny and Poite where Johnny was trying to point out how the welsh were piling into the breakdowns to prevent a steal and/or the ball coming back. Am I correct in thinking that was the source of a lot of the penalties? in other words, they were being clever in disrupting the breakdown in a borderline illegal way that poite didn't catch.

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Re: Ireland v Wales Sat 2.15

Post by FLIP »

MylesNaGapoleen wrote:
Twist wrote:One disappointment was our penalty count. Its been way too high in both matches. A couple of them were bad calls but others were totally unnecessary
Stander had a great game but he gave away a few despite Poite shouting at him to release. eventually got the yellow because of same.
TV coverage I saw shared the ref mic conversation between Johnny and Poite where Johnny was trying to point out how the welsh were piling into the breakdowns to prevent a steal and/or the ball coming back. Am I correct in thinking that was the source of a lot of the penalties? in other words, they were being clever in disrupting the breakdown in a borderline illegal way that poite didn't catch.
Yes, it happened a lot. Once Poite said to the Welsh that he wouldn't penalise us because Wales had pulled the player down. But then penalised us when they did it again.
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