Irl v Sco 6Ns 2020

[Dave Cahill]

In the last 6months we’ve suffered our biggest ever defeat to England and our biggest RWC knock out defeat as well as losing to Japan! Contextually the fact the team was ranked in top 1-3 in the world at the time of those defeats actually makes the case for change even greater than 20 years ago. Couple that with the fact that we’ve great structures in place where the incoming players are almost all already capped and have huge elite club level experience, means I can’t for one understand why we are so averse to change.

No one gives a sh!t what happened at the world cup.

[blockhead]

In the last 6months we’ve suffered our biggest ever defeat to England and our biggest RWC knock out defeat as well as losing to Japan! Contextually the fact the team was ranked in top 1-3 in the world at the time of those defeats actually makes the case for change even greater than 20 years ago. Couple that with the fact that we’ve great structures in place where the incoming players are almost all already capped and have huge elite club level experience, means I can’t for one understand why we are so averse to change.

No one gives a sh!t what happened at the world cup.

And there's me thinkin that I was the only one.

[locho]

In the last 6months we’ve suffered our biggest ever defeat to England and our biggest RWC knock out defeat as well as losing to Japan! Contextually the fact the team was ranked in top 1-3 in the world at the time of those defeats actually makes the case for change even greater than 20 years ago. Couple that with the fact that we’ve great structures in place where the incoming players are almost all already capped and have huge elite club level experience, means I can’t for one understand why we are so averse to change.

No one gives a sh!t what happened at the world cup.

Are you confusing giving a sh!t about the World Cup vs giving a sh!t about how our team performs in the most recent competition as an indication to how we select for next tournament perhaps? But if you want we can go back to the poor performances in the 6nations 2019 for a reason for change. I believe these changes give us the best chance to succeed in this tournament f the world Cup!

[Dave Cahill]

The change was made, the guy responsible left.

[ronk]

I find the attitude amazing when you consider that 20 years ago one of the best coaches ever in the NH managed to send out 5 new caps in a game vs. Scotland in Dublin and they seemed to do ok (remember we hadn't beaten Scotland in the previous 8 years or something)! Why now with all the success and performance levels in our provincial structures are we still so conservative in our selections compared to almost every other tier 1 nation and especially against inferior opposition.

That has to be taken in context though - Ireland had finished the 5 nations bottom 7 of the 10 tournaments the previous decade, we were the worst team in the 5 Nations and were being beaten regularly by a pre 6 Nations Italy, and had just suffered a record stuffing by the English. There was nothing to lose. Conversely, three months ago Ireland were the number one ranked side in the world, 12 months previously beat the All Blacks and were favourites for the World Cup. Its easier to take risks when you have nothing left to lose.

The provinces had just been formed too. The young generation were hungry pros, the older generation were amateurs who'd started getting paid.

It was a once in forever chance to invest in a younger core at a higher rate of return. It wont be as good again for Ireland. Munster have/had a pretty good opportunity, Keith Earls is the last of the HC generation and the following generation had some messed up development. But they've recruited heavily instead and limited the possibilities for their recent crop.

[hugonaut]

But mostly I think Cooney's performances are being overrated due to try scoring and him being a different type of 9. I'm not sure he'll be compatible with Sexton. The only way Scotland win this is if we draw them into a shoot out. I think Cooney is far more likely to fall into that trap than Murray.

Cooney commits the greatest sin a player can commit in modern rugby. He turns over a lot of ball to the opposition

According to Rugby Pass's statistics for 2020 and 2019:

Cooney
2020 Ulster: -4 turnovers [1 turnover won, 5 conceded] in 217mins
[1 turnover conceded/43.4 mins]
2019 Ulster: -12 turnovers [4 turnovers won, 16 conceded] in 1333mins
[1 turnover conceded/83.3 mins]
2019 Ireland: -1 turnovers [0 won, 1 turnover conceded] in 37 mins
[1 turnover conceded/37 mins]

Turnovers conceded: 22 in 1587 mins; 1 turnover conceded/72 mins
Overall turnover count: -17

Murray
2020 Munster: -3 turnovers [1 turnover won, 4 lost] in 214 mins
[1 turnover conceded/53.5 mins]
2019 Munster: -7 turnovers [3 turnovers won, 10 lost] in 818 mins
[1 turnover conceded/81.8 mins]
2019 Ireland: -13 turnovers [1 turnover won, 14 lost] in 724 mins
[1 turnover conceded/51.7 mins]

Turnovers conceded: 28 in 1756 mins; 1 turnover conceded/63 mins
Overall turnover count: -23

I think those extrapolations are right.

Difficult to compare the two. 2020 provides a small sample size; Cooney played a lot more provincial rugby in 2019 than Murray did and Murray played a lot more test rugby that year than Cooney did.

[Dave Cahill]

[
According to Rugby Pass's statistics for 2020 and 2019:

Cooney
2020 Ulster: -4 turnovers [1 turnover won, 5 conceded] in 217mins
[1 turnover conceded/43.4 mins]
2019 Ulster: -12 turnovers [4 turnovers won, 16 conceded] in 1333mins
[1 turnover conceded/83.3 mins]
2019 Ireland: -1 turnovers [0 won, 1 turnover conceded] in 37 mins
[1 turnover conceded/37 mins]

Turnovers conceded: 22 in 1587 mins; 1 turnover conceded/72 mins
Overall turnover count: -17

Murray
2020 Munster: -3 turnovers [1 turnover won, 4 lost] in 214 mins
[1 turnover conceded/53.5 mins]
2019 Munster: -7 turnovers [3 turnovers won, 10 lost] in 818 mins
[1 turnover conceded/81.8 mins]
2019 Ireland: -13 turnovers [1 turnover won, 14 lost] in 724 mins
[1 turnover conceded/51.7 mins]

Turnovers conceded: 28 in 1756 mins; 1 turnover conceded/63 mins
Overall turnover count: -23

I think those extrapolations are right.

Difficult to compare the two. 2020 provides a small sample size; Cooney played a lot more provincial rugby in 2019 than Murray did and Murray played a lot more test rugby that year than Cooney did.

Murray Kinsella has the figures at Cooney: 24, Murray: 13 and McGrath (who i'll come to later): 9 - I think the rugbypass stats are based on the breakdown and Murray has wider interpretation?

Anyway, to McGrath, familiarity has certainly bred, if not contempt, then perhaps indifference, to his claims. His stats easily match, if not exceed, most of those of his peers and he seems to have seen off, for the time being at least, his main rival at Leinster. His team are one of the best in world rugby and he is a key cog in it, yet he seems to be ignored in terms of the talk around the Irish team. Now the other side of that is that it's as easy to look good in a good team like Leinster as it is to appear to under-perform the way that Murray is perceived to have done in a team that's struggling in the way that Munster currently are, but I'm surprised that there is so little chatter about him around this game. Personally I'd go with Murray, but I've really never drank the Cooney Flavor Aid and I think perception of him is skewed by his goalkicking and admittedly admirable try-scoring numbers. As a scrum half, I think he's quite magnolia

[ronk]

McGrath has a nose for the line and is a really good defender. I think it's pretty close between them all. It's nice to have depth, except for the individuals.

He's also younger than those guys, young enough to be around for the next RWC.

[fourthirtythree]

Personally I'd go with Murray, but I've really never drank the Cooney Flavor Aid and I think perception of him is skewed by his goalkicking and admittedly admirable try-scoring numbers. As a scrum half, I think he's quite magnolia

You mean the Kool Aid. You drink the Flavor Aid, you're dead. You drink the Kool Aid you stare at your hands and talk sh!t.

Obvioualy the phrase predates the Flavor Aid by a decade (at least) and has the added advantage of not being glib about mass murder.

[sunshiner1]

It depends on what type of Rugby Farrell wants to play. Marmion still has to come back into the mix and I'd like to see Blade get a chance this summer to show what he can do as well. McGrath is a good player but is he better than Cooney or Marmion? The simple answer is it depends on the style that Farrell wants. All have pros and cons but seeing how they fit into Farrell's system is the key.

[Oldschool]

Mike Cart hasn't been mentioned much but you'd wonder what kind of impact his presence will make.
He certainly seemed to have a positive impact on Italy's back play so hopefully we'll see something similar for Ireland.
How much influence is he likely to have on selection at this stage.

[Oldschool]

The change was made, the guy responsible left.

Oh that life was so simple.

[Oldschool]

McGrath has a nose for the line and is a really good defender. I think it's pretty close between them all. It's nice to have depth, except for the individuals.

He's also younger than those guys, young enough to be around for the next RWC.

Think it's fair to say it's not his nose any of us are worried about.
It's his hands and and the effect that they have on his passing.

[Oldschool]

But mostly I think Cooney's performances are being overrated due to try scoring and him being a different type of 9. I'm not sure he'll be compatible with Sexton. The only way Scotland win this is if we draw them into a shoot out. I think Cooney is far more likely to fall into that trap than Murray.

Cooney commits the greatest sin a player can commit in modern rugby. He turns over a lot of ball to the opposition

The greatest sin of a SH is to be a poor passer.
Nobody gives a sh;t about SH turnovers.
It's the positive stuff they do that matters.
Cooney is the best passing SH that we have.
He's also the best support play SH that we have.
He does all the other duties of a SH well.
Cooney and Marmion are the best passers.
JGP next then you can group Murray and McGrath.
Murray because his passing is so telegraphed and McGrath, while his passing is quicker it's all over the place.
In summary none of our SHs are perfect but Cooney is technically the best one available and he's been in excellent form since moving to Ulster, Ruan who?

[paddyor]

In the last 6months we’ve suffered our biggest ever defeat to England and our biggest RWC knock out defeat as well as losing to Japan! Contextually the fact the team was ranked in top 1-3 in the world at the time of those defeats actually makes the case for change even greater than 20 years ago. Couple that with the fact that we’ve great structures in place where the incoming players are almost all already capped and have huge elite club level experience, means I can’t for one understand why we are so averse to change.

Do people really care about the results of warm ups? Didn't Wales get a stuffing against the england team the week before?

[locho]

https://www.irishrugby.ie/2020/01/28/tw ... -scotland/
Team's out.

1. Healy 2. Herring 3. Furlong 4.Ryan 5.Henderson 6. Stander 7. JvdF 8. Doris 9. Murray 10. Sexton 11. Stockdale 12. Aki 13. Ringrose 14. Conway 15. Larmour
16. Kelleher 17. Kilcoyne 18. Porter 19. Toner 20. POM 21. Cooney 22. Byrne 23. Henshaw

[Logorrhea]

Addison's unlucky, surprised hes not on the bench. Is he injured or just not selected? The rest of the selection seems solid enough and the bench (Toner aside) offers decent impact.

[wixfjord]

Interesting that Faz seemingly isn't in the Joe camp of picking bench players for their ability to cover multiple positions.

(Would also be interesting to see what happens if Larmour picks up a knock. Robbie to 15 again?)

[MylesNaGapoleen]

Addison's unlucky, surprised hes not on the bench. Is he injured or just not selected? The rest of the selection seems solid enough and the bench (Toner aside) offers decent impact.

Addison must be injured to not make the bench.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Interesting that Faz seemingly isn't in the Joe camp of picking bench players for their ability to cover multiple positions.

(Would also be interesting to see what happens if Larmour picks up a knock. Robbie to 15 again?)

I'd say Ringrose will go to the wing.