We don't know how coaches renumeration is structured. Every coach up to now may well have had incentives related to progress in the world Cup. But presumably if the irfu are going to have financial incentives in the contract, the main ones will be related to financial success, ie doing well in the 6 nations year in year out.
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Andy Farell's Reign of Terror
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Ruckedtobits
- Rob Kearney
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Re: Andy Farell's Reign of Terror
+1heno wrote: ↑August 4th, 2022, 4:25 am We don't know how coaches renumeration is structured. Every coach up to now may well have had incentives related to progress in the world Cup. But presumably if the irfu are going to have financial incentives in the contract, the main ones will be related to financial success, ie doing well in the 6 nations year in year out.
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That's the reality. Prize money is significant in the 6N and bonuses for performance & position are in players & coaches contracts. Less so in World Cup, although they are mentioned, they come effectively through the value of corporate sponsorship contracts.
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Flash Gordon
- Leo Cullen
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Re: Andy Farell's Reign of Terror
Yep it's not even close, the 6 Nations is a massive generator of income, the RWC absolutely is not.Ruckedtobits wrote: ↑August 4th, 2022, 9:28 am+1heno wrote: ↑August 4th, 2022, 4:25 am We don't know how coaches renumeration is structured. Every coach up to now may well have had incentives related to progress in the world Cup. But presumably if the irfu are going to have financial incentives in the contract, the main ones will be related to financial success, ie doing well in the 6 nations year in year out.
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That's the reality. Prize money is significant in the 6N and bonuses for performance & position are in players & coaches contracts. Less so in World Cup, although they are mentioned, they come effectively through the value of corporate sponsorship contracts.
Flash ahhhh ahhh, he'll save every one of us
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Ruckedtobits
- Rob Kearney
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Re: Andy Farell's Reign of Terror
So, Andy Farrell, Simon Easterby, Mike Catt & John Fogarty (and maybe even Manager Mick Kearney) are having a bite to eat after the Interpro games. None of them appeared to attend the final series of Interpro games but they've been at earlier games and all will have seen itemised summary coverage of all recent games.
Maybe they've already made the big decisions but now's a good time to review whatever they believed in the immediate aftermath of the Autumn games. Big calls require a lot of contemplation and are worthy of care and consideration.
Priority is 6N / RWC / Both ?
This may be the biggest call of all. Certainly, not one of NZ, SA or France have any doubt of their priority for 2023. England's Borthwick & Gatland may have conflicting views but only because without a good 6Ns competition, they may not have a competitive team for RWC23.
The IRFU has never prioritised RWC and the Committee explicitly required the Head Coach to place the 5N / 6N tournament at the top of the list - certainly up to 2015 at least. Has anything changed in this regard? Has the Professional Game Board altered the status quo? Has Nucifora left the decision solely in the hands of Andy Farrell and his colleagues?
Until the publication of the memoirs of one of these, we will never know definitively the answers to these questions.
However, what is certain is that no team which has not prioritised the World Cup has ever won it. Not Australia, New Zealand, South Africa or even England. Woodword's 2003 team may have won the 2003 6N competition, but that victory was incidential to the RWC competition, which was their private and public priority.
I would love Farrell, Sexton and Nucifora to have a press briefing during the next month and for each of them to confirm that Ireland has placed RWC2023 at the top of all priorities for the remainder of the year, right up to the day after the World Cup final.
There is of course an alternative view. The winners of the World Cup will play seven games of which they will have to win the last three in succession in three weekends to be crowned Champions. The 6N Tournament provides perfect opportunity to prepare for this task and therefore Ireland should prioritise its performance in this competition by winning three in a row, which would invariably include the defeat of France or England or both.
Would this make a Difference to how we perform in 6N?
I believe it would, primarily because it would impact on selection, tactics & strategy for that competition. If the RWC is really the priority, Farrell and his colleagues can give game time to players who have not regained form, or are only returning from injury e.g Stockdale, Baloucombe, Connors, Conway, Ahern, Frawley, Tommy O'Brien, Addison.
Another likely consequence is that we would disclose little of how we intend to play in the RWC, particularly against France and England. That's not to say that we will lose these games, but we might. We will win some games and could win the Championship or a Triple Crown. But those games will be like qualifying rounds and wouldn't take a heavy emotional toll. Players will be playing hard, because of the competition to make the Squad for 2023. However, Sexton, in particular, will be managing like ice-cream in the summer.
Ross Byrne can run / manage the Irish team better than anyone except Sexton
I now take it as inevitable that Ross Byrne will not only make the RWC Squad, but he will do so as the acknowledged No 2 out-half to Sexton. The Irish Squad is already dominated by Leinster players with whom Byrne trains and plays more than Sexton. Due to Sexton's injury travails, Byrne has played with and directed this group successfully at the highest levels of Club competition in Europe.
None of his competition in the other Provinces are likely to have the opportunity to acquire the experience of directing an Irish (Leinster) team to regular successful performances over the next nine months. In fact, every other contender (Carbery, Crowley, Carty, Frawley) will be either trying to rescue their team or fighting for his own selection. Neither are good places to be for a player expected to direct a National team to success, playing fast expansive rugby. And that's before we talk about the essential skill of clutch place-kicking.
Even more Leinster players will make the RWC Squad?
As the weeks progress, and Leinster keep producing excellent results with individual performances generated by the confidence and success that inevitably derive from Leinster's play, it is almost inevitable that more Leinster players will command international selection.
Ireland's best backrow? Van der Flyer and Doris would be automatic choices at 7 and 8. Who are the other contenders? PO'M, Conan, Connors, Prendergast, Timoney, Coombes are some of the obvious contenders, but for how long can Farrell ignore the performances that Baird is producing for Leinster at No 6?
At wing, Lowe and Hansen have both been superb performers for Ireland in 6N, NZ Tour and Autumn internationals. But what winger is likely to get better opportunities to display his try-scoring expertise than Jordan Larmour in the next 7 months?
Ryan, Beirne & Henderson are almost the unanimous choices in the second-row for the RWC Squad. If there is to be a fourth, who is likely to get better opportunities to display their footballing ability and physicality than Joe McCarthy? Certainly not players in the Ulster or Munster packs, both of which continue to be under pressure in top-level games. Highly skilled and talented forwards in the Connacht pack are even less likely to catch the eye in go-forward, dominant Provincial teams in the coming months.
The contenders for Irish RWC Squad
Based on recent performances and form, the likely contenders at present are:
Probables - 18:
Keenan (15l; Lowe (11); Hansen (14)
Henshaw(12); Bundee Aki (12); Ringrose (13/14);
Sexton (10/12); Gibson Park (9);
Porter (1); Sheehan (2); Kelleher (2); Furlong (3);
Ryan (4); Henderson (4); Beirne (5);
Van der Flyer (7); Doris (8); O'Mahony(6)
Possibles - 30
O'Brien (15/13/11); Stockdale (11/15); Larmour (15/14/11); Conway (14/15/11); Earls (11/13/14);
McCloskey (12); Hume (13); Moore (13/15);
Byrne R (10/12); Carbery (10/12/15); Crowley (10/12/15); Frawley (10/12/13/15);
Murray (9/ pk); Doak (9/10/pk); Casey (9); Blade (9);
Loughman (1/3); Healy (1/3); Bealham (3/1); Herring (2); Stewart (2);
Baird (5/6); Prendegast (6/5); Treadwell (4/5/6); McCarthy (4/6);
Conan (6/8); Coombes (8/6); Timoney (7/8); Connors (7/6);
There are undoubtedly other contenders and perhaps even some who may stick their hands up over the next 6 months. However, I believe the lists above show that we have reasonable strength in depth in every position, possibly excepting our back-up Props. Nevertheless, it's likely that only 50% or fewer, of the second group will be selected. That's a lot of disappointed talent.
Ireland has a real chance in the forthcoming RWC. Will the team be given the best chance to succeed?
Maybe they've already made the big decisions but now's a good time to review whatever they believed in the immediate aftermath of the Autumn games. Big calls require a lot of contemplation and are worthy of care and consideration.
Priority is 6N / RWC / Both ?
This may be the biggest call of all. Certainly, not one of NZ, SA or France have any doubt of their priority for 2023. England's Borthwick & Gatland may have conflicting views but only because without a good 6Ns competition, they may not have a competitive team for RWC23.
The IRFU has never prioritised RWC and the Committee explicitly required the Head Coach to place the 5N / 6N tournament at the top of the list - certainly up to 2015 at least. Has anything changed in this regard? Has the Professional Game Board altered the status quo? Has Nucifora left the decision solely in the hands of Andy Farrell and his colleagues?
Until the publication of the memoirs of one of these, we will never know definitively the answers to these questions.
However, what is certain is that no team which has not prioritised the World Cup has ever won it. Not Australia, New Zealand, South Africa or even England. Woodword's 2003 team may have won the 2003 6N competition, but that victory was incidential to the RWC competition, which was their private and public priority.
I would love Farrell, Sexton and Nucifora to have a press briefing during the next month and for each of them to confirm that Ireland has placed RWC2023 at the top of all priorities for the remainder of the year, right up to the day after the World Cup final.
There is of course an alternative view. The winners of the World Cup will play seven games of which they will have to win the last three in succession in three weekends to be crowned Champions. The 6N Tournament provides perfect opportunity to prepare for this task and therefore Ireland should prioritise its performance in this competition by winning three in a row, which would invariably include the defeat of France or England or both.
Would this make a Difference to how we perform in 6N?
I believe it would, primarily because it would impact on selection, tactics & strategy for that competition. If the RWC is really the priority, Farrell and his colleagues can give game time to players who have not regained form, or are only returning from injury e.g Stockdale, Baloucombe, Connors, Conway, Ahern, Frawley, Tommy O'Brien, Addison.
Another likely consequence is that we would disclose little of how we intend to play in the RWC, particularly against France and England. That's not to say that we will lose these games, but we might. We will win some games and could win the Championship or a Triple Crown. But those games will be like qualifying rounds and wouldn't take a heavy emotional toll. Players will be playing hard, because of the competition to make the Squad for 2023. However, Sexton, in particular, will be managing like ice-cream in the summer.
Ross Byrne can run / manage the Irish team better than anyone except Sexton
I now take it as inevitable that Ross Byrne will not only make the RWC Squad, but he will do so as the acknowledged No 2 out-half to Sexton. The Irish Squad is already dominated by Leinster players with whom Byrne trains and plays more than Sexton. Due to Sexton's injury travails, Byrne has played with and directed this group successfully at the highest levels of Club competition in Europe.
None of his competition in the other Provinces are likely to have the opportunity to acquire the experience of directing an Irish (Leinster) team to regular successful performances over the next nine months. In fact, every other contender (Carbery, Crowley, Carty, Frawley) will be either trying to rescue their team or fighting for his own selection. Neither are good places to be for a player expected to direct a National team to success, playing fast expansive rugby. And that's before we talk about the essential skill of clutch place-kicking.
Even more Leinster players will make the RWC Squad?
As the weeks progress, and Leinster keep producing excellent results with individual performances generated by the confidence and success that inevitably derive from Leinster's play, it is almost inevitable that more Leinster players will command international selection.
Ireland's best backrow? Van der Flyer and Doris would be automatic choices at 7 and 8. Who are the other contenders? PO'M, Conan, Connors, Prendergast, Timoney, Coombes are some of the obvious contenders, but for how long can Farrell ignore the performances that Baird is producing for Leinster at No 6?
At wing, Lowe and Hansen have both been superb performers for Ireland in 6N, NZ Tour and Autumn internationals. But what winger is likely to get better opportunities to display his try-scoring expertise than Jordan Larmour in the next 7 months?
Ryan, Beirne & Henderson are almost the unanimous choices in the second-row for the RWC Squad. If there is to be a fourth, who is likely to get better opportunities to display their footballing ability and physicality than Joe McCarthy? Certainly not players in the Ulster or Munster packs, both of which continue to be under pressure in top-level games. Highly skilled and talented forwards in the Connacht pack are even less likely to catch the eye in go-forward, dominant Provincial teams in the coming months.
The contenders for Irish RWC Squad
Based on recent performances and form, the likely contenders at present are:
Probables - 18:
Keenan (15l; Lowe (11); Hansen (14)
Henshaw(12); Bundee Aki (12); Ringrose (13/14);
Sexton (10/12); Gibson Park (9);
Porter (1); Sheehan (2); Kelleher (2); Furlong (3);
Ryan (4); Henderson (4); Beirne (5);
Van der Flyer (7); Doris (8); O'Mahony(6)
Possibles - 30
O'Brien (15/13/11); Stockdale (11/15); Larmour (15/14/11); Conway (14/15/11); Earls (11/13/14);
McCloskey (12); Hume (13); Moore (13/15);
Byrne R (10/12); Carbery (10/12/15); Crowley (10/12/15); Frawley (10/12/13/15);
Murray (9/ pk); Doak (9/10/pk); Casey (9); Blade (9);
Loughman (1/3); Healy (1/3); Bealham (3/1); Herring (2); Stewart (2);
Baird (5/6); Prendegast (6/5); Treadwell (4/5/6); McCarthy (4/6);
Conan (6/8); Coombes (8/6); Timoney (7/8); Connors (7/6);
There are undoubtedly other contenders and perhaps even some who may stick their hands up over the next 6 months. However, I believe the lists above show that we have reasonable strength in depth in every position, possibly excepting our back-up Props. Nevertheless, it's likely that only 50% or fewer, of the second group will be selected. That's a lot of disappointed talent.
Ireland has a real chance in the forthcoming RWC. Will the team be given the best chance to succeed?
Re: Andy Farell's Reign of Terror
Excellent thought provoking piece. I hate all this talk about getting to the semi-finals. The fact of the matter is that in a very open field we have as good a chance of winning it as any other team bar France. All resources should be concentrated exclusively on that goal. IRFU must allow Farrell the space to treat 6N as a springboard.
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riocard911
- Shane Jennings
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Re: Andy Farell's Reign of Terror
I concur!enby wrote: ↑January 2nd, 2023, 10:33 pm Excellent thought provoking piece. I hate all this talk about getting to the semi-finals. The fact of the matter is that in a very open field we have as good a chance of winning it as any other team bar France. All resources should be concentrated exclusively on that goal. IRFU must allow Farrell the space to treat 6N as a springboard.
Re: Andy Farell's Reign of Terror
Ireland are not a team built to ignore a tournament and suddenly come good.
If we fail in the 6N we will be in trouble for the RWC. If we don't target both, we are targeting nothing.
If we fail in the 6N we will be in trouble for the RWC. If we don't target both, we are targeting nothing.
Re: Andy Farell's Reign of Terror
Great Post RTB.
Ireland are not in transition and in fact have a very settled first choice 23.
That means we can target both the 6Ns and the RWC while still doing a bit of work on squad depth for the positions that require it.
Ireland are not in transition and in fact have a very settled first choice 23.
That means we can target both the 6Ns and the RWC while still doing a bit of work on squad depth for the positions that require it.
Mirror, Mirror on the Wall who's the greatest player of them all? It is Drico your majesty.
Re: Andy Farell's Reign of Terror
I like the comments regarding Ross Byrne. It's going to be really interesting to see how the whole 10 situation is managed.
Dont Panic!
Re: Andy Farell's Reign of Terror
From ROC in the INDO
meanwhileKeenan looks set to be rewarded for his excellent form with an IRFU deal set to be announced in the coming weeks, while a number of Leinster stars like Caelan Doris and World Player of the Year Josh van der Flier could also be elevated to central contracts in the next round of talks
Feel sorry for Stockdale, sensational 2018, main reason why we won the slam. Not much luck lately.Jacob Stockdale looks set to lose his IRFU central contract going into next season with Ulster expected to pick up the tab.
You know I'm going to lose,
And gambling's for fools,
But that's the way I like it baby, I don't want to live FOREVER!
And gambling's for fools,
But that's the way I like it baby, I don't want to live FOREVER!
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scentofgunpowder
- Bookworm
- Posts: 241
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Re: Andy Farell's Reign of Terror
Was thinking about Stockdale recently, specifically how he may reinvent himself to get back into international reckoning. It's hard to see him picking up more caps on the wing, he seems to have lost his pace and has not scored a try for Ulster since April 2021 (I know he has had injuries but nonetheless 883 mins without a score is a considerable dry spell). Perhaps 12 could be a good fit - he's big, seems to have decent footwork still despite the loss of pace, a good pass, and a massive left boot. On the flip side, he's not particularly strong in defence, has never played the position (I believe), and Ulster are rightfully going to pick McCloskey whenever fit.blockhead wrote: ↑January 18th, 2023, 8:26 am From ROC in the INDOmeanwhileKeenan looks set to be rewarded for his excellent form with an IRFU deal set to be announced in the coming weeks, while a number of Leinster stars like Caelan Doris and World Player of the Year Josh van der Flier could also be elevated to central contracts in the next round of talksFeel sorry for Stockdale, sensational 2018, main reason why we won the slam. Not much luck lately.Jacob Stockdale looks set to lose his IRFU central contract going into next season with Ulster expected to pick up the tab.
Hard to know where else he may fit in. Perhaps fullback, but that was not exactly a success first time around, and he is a lesser player now. He did also play a bit of 13 underage and once for Ulster back in 2017.
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Experimental
- Knowledgeable
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Re: Andy Farell's Reign of Terror
Stockdale really lucky to get in imo. Mike Haley has been playing really well lately, Hodnett must be getting close aswell
Re: Andy Farell's Reign of Terror
I can see 3 reasons for Stockdale's decline. Injuries are the main one, switching to fullback at a bad time exacerbated that and the change in Ireland's game has been fairly important too.
What Stockdale was world class at (& he was world class) was winning one on one contests. Get him the ball and a bit of space and he'd win, chip the fullback and get to the ball first. That was the strategy, suck defences narrow and hit them wide with a 1 man overlap. The downside of that strategy was that he was also good for turnovers. The plan didn't fail gently, it was win fast or lose fast.
I don't know to what extent he might regain that sharpness, Larmour finding form again has given me hope. Larmour learned to become more of a team player, wingers are often taught to be selfish about scoring. Stockdale certainly was.
What Stockdale was world class at (& he was world class) was winning one on one contests. Get him the ball and a bit of space and he'd win, chip the fullback and get to the ball first. That was the strategy, suck defences narrow and hit them wide with a 1 man overlap. The downside of that strategy was that he was also good for turnovers. The plan didn't fail gently, it was win fast or lose fast.
I don't know to what extent he might regain that sharpness, Larmour finding form again has given me hope. Larmour learned to become more of a team player, wingers are often taught to be selfish about scoring. Stockdale certainly was.