RWC 2019 Warmup Games

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OTT
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Re: RWC 2019 Warmup Games

Post by OTT »

Nice performance.

I know Schmidt has lost the dressing room but still thought we played quite well despite that.

Hopefully we go on to greater things like the last time Schmidt lost a dressing room.
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ronk
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Re: RWC 2019 Warmup Games

Post by ronk »

Little bit of rust where it was expected. Good form from key players. Happy with Stander, Kearney and Larmour especially. Was a bit surprised that Stander was used in the lineout when Conan (& Ruddock later) was an option.

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Logorrhea
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Re: RWC 2019 Warmup Games

Post by Logorrhea »

OTT wrote:Nice performance.

I know Schmidt has lost the dressing room but still thought we played quite well despite that.

Hopefully we go on to greater things like the last time Schmidt lost a dressing room.
Its a tribute to the character of the players (mainly the Munster players as they are the only ones with character) that they are still able to put in a performance like that despite Schmidt obviously losing the entire dressing room.

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hugonaut
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Re: RWC 2019 Warmup Games

Post by hugonaut »

wixfjord wrote:Aye whatever happens at the RWC, it's some send off for Schmidt. Legend.
Delighted for him. He has put in a hell of a stint and it's a phenomenal achievement to take us to No1 in the world.

It doesn't mean that we're going to win RWC19 or even that we're the best team in the world, it just means that we have reached the top of a ranking system. But there are no 'vagaries' in the ranking system ... it's a system. The criteria are applied to everybody equally. We have done enough over a long period of time to get to the top of it. Well done to Joe and the lads.

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Re: RWC 2019 Warmup Games

Post by Fan with smartphone »

No pressure there Joe, but just the one last box to tick :D

This ain’t recency bias or sentimentality on the last day - I’ve thought it a long time, but I put him as the best coach/manager/whatever the title, I’ve ever seen, in any sport. He’s scaled great heights of performance and result, while developing within that. Even the lulls have been preludes to developing to something bigger and some lovely poetry written along the way too.

Ádh mór agus go raibh maith agat Josef.

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CiaranIrl
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Re: RWC 2019 Warmup Games

Post by CiaranIrl »

It was hard not to watch out for mistakes from Kleyn, and hard to know if I'm just bitter or if he didn't play well. That said, I noticed him carry without protecting the ball on the few times he did carry. He also gave away 2 of our 6 penalties, one of them an especially dumb 'in from the side' penalty. Not particularly impressed.
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neiliog93
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Re: RWC 2019 Warmup Games

Post by neiliog93 »

CiaranIrl wrote:It was hard not to watch out for mistakes from Kleyn, and hard to know if I'm just bitter or if he didn't play well. That said, I noticed him carry without protecting the ball on the few times he did carry. He also gave away 2 of our 6 penalties, one of them an especially dumb 'in from the side' penalty. Not particularly impressed.
Kleyn was poor in the loose and dodgy at the line out. Our scrum was a bit stronger with him on the field though. Can't see him starting either of the tougher pool games (Scotland and Japan) as they are both smaller, agile teams, but he might get drafted in if we get South Africa in the 1/4 final.
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Re: RWC 2019 Warmup Games

Post by wixfjord »

neiliog93 wrote:
CiaranIrl wrote:It was hard not to watch out for mistakes from Kleyn, and hard to know if I'm just bitter or if he didn't play well. That said, I noticed him carry without protecting the ball on the few times he did carry. He also gave away 2 of our 6 penalties, one of them an especially dumb 'in from the side' penalty. Not particularly impressed.
Kleyn was poor in the loose and dodgy at the line out. Our scrum was a bit stronger with him on the field though. Can't see him starting either of the tougher pool games (Scotland and Japan) as they are both smaller, agile teams, but he might get drafted in if we get South Africa in the 1/4 final.

Was it?!
He went off after 50 odd and it was after Hendo, Kilcoyne, Porter etc came on that we really started turning the screw in the scrum.

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LeRouxIsPHat
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Re: RWC 2019 Warmup Games

Post by LeRouxIsPHat »

Yeah we obliterated the first scrum after Kleyn went off. That said, I do share the concerns about Kilcoyne's scrummaging, he usually does go in at an angle and I have no idea how he gets away with it...and yet he has been doing so for his entire career. I said recently that we needed to flag that teams (especially England) are closing the gap at lineout time and the ref was very hot on that today. I don't think it's a coincidence that our lineout picked up once he started enforcing it. If a team pipes up about Kilcoyne then the same thing could happen. I don't mean to be down on him though, he was outstanding again and sure if he keeps getting away with it then why would change? It's only really a problem if he starts to get pinged and can't adapt.

I agree with the criticism of Kleyn. He had some strong tackles in the first half but didn't offer much apart from that. The more I think about it the more I think that his selection really is because Dev just wasn't up to it rather than it being a pro Kleyn selection. I haven't seen the quotes first hand but I've read on twitter that Dev said a while ago that he'd struggle to make it back in time with his injury and obviously Joe said that he had been playing catch up. He didn't play at all well over the last few weeks and my guess is that he wasn't showing any signs of working his way back to form or fitness so they had to make a call. He could well play three Pro14 games before we reach the World Cup quarter final and maybe he'll be raring to go by that stage if he's needed because of injury.

I'm feeling pretty happy after the last two games. My big worries after Twickenham were that we had totally f**ked our preparation or that the WC had come a year too late for some of our older players, but I am reassured now that the players are in good nick and that we prioritised the camp in Portugal ahead of the match prep.

I've been critical of Best and CJ recently but thought both were really good today. The lineout still worries me of course but Best was excellent in the loose. I can see why people thought Conan was quiet but I thought he had a good game. His defence was very strong in the first half and then had good carries as the game went on. I really don't see him as a top class number 8 though, just think he's one of those players who won't be able to repeat his club form at international level, and if CJ can build on today then he should get the jersey IMO. It's very much a live contest though and I can see it changing as the tournament unfolds.

Not sure what I'd do in the centre. I never thought I'd consider leaving Ringrose out but Aki and Henshaw went really together. It sure feels like Joe has penciled him in as the 23 now, and if Earls is injured and Larmour starts in his place then it makes sense to have one of the centres on the bench.

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dropkick
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Re: RWC 2019 Warmup Games

Post by dropkick »

It was a positive game overall. Physically the team stepped up another gear and now look ready for Scotland. The defence was impressive.


Attack wise it was a bit disappointing. It was the usual bosh for most of the second half. In the first half there were good signs. The players look like they've more freedom to offload now and throughout the game they did look to vary it up a bit so maybe my perception of the attack was coloured with them being camped in the Welsh 22 for so long.


The Welsh are the best defensive team in the world and are impressive in how they can get away with so many rules being bent. That has to be taken into account.

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cormac
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Re: RWC 2019 Warmup Games

Post by cormac »

I think there are two interlinked reasons as to how Kilcoyne gets away with angling in on the opposing tighthead

1) some refs appear not to police or recognise props not scrumming straight.
2) on attacking scrums the ref is often on the other side.

He's far from the only prop to get away with it. Dan Cole has been doing it for even longer.
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neiliog93
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Re: RWC 2019 Warmup Games

Post by neiliog93 »

Re Conan, an interesting point - in the last two games he has made a number of eye-catching dominant tackles in defence, but hasn't been as effective a ball carrier as we've come to expect. For most of his career up to now, he has been criticised for carrying strongly but not making the same physical impact in defence (something he acknowledged the Irish coaching staff had highlighted to him as a 'work-on'). A strange inversion seems to have occurred!

On the other hand, it was CJ's best game for Ireland, and possibly best game overall, in a very long time. Ditto for van der Flier.

In the backline, I thought Aki was really good again - his passing has often frustrated me, but aside from one example today his delivery was crisp. His ball-carrying has looked good, as has his defence. I would say Ringrose might be under pressure for his place, especially as Joe likes big centres. Of course, neither Aki nor Henshaw are particularly big by the standards of modern centres but they are beefier than Garry.
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Logorrhea
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Re: RWC 2019 Warmup Games

Post by Logorrhea »

Would like to point out that Wales were seriously flat.

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Re: RWC 2019 Warmup Games

Post by Peg Leg »

neiliog93 wrote:Re Conan, an interesting point - in the last two games he has made a number of eye-catching dominant tackles in defence, but hasn't been as effective a ball carrier as we've come to expect. For most of his career up to now, he has been criticised for carrying strongly but not making the same physical impact in defence (something he acknowledged the Irish coaching staff had highlighted to him as a 'work-on'). A strange inversion seems to have occurred!

On the other hand, it was CJ's best game for Ireland, and possibly best game overall, in a very long time. Ditto for van der Flier.

In the backline, I thought Aki was really good again - his passing has often frustrated me, but aside from one example today his delivery was crisp. His ball-carrying has looked good, as has his defence. I would say Ringrose might be under pressure for his place, especially as Joe likes big centres. Of course, neither Aki nor Henshaw are particularly big by the standards of modern centres but they are beefier than Garry.
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Re: RWC 2019 Warmup Games

Post by Fan with smartphone »

dropkick wrote:It was a positive game overall. Physically the team stepped up another gear and now look ready for Scotland. The defence was impressive.


Attack wise it was a bit disappointing. It was the usual bosh for most of the second half. In the first half there were good signs. The players look like they've more freedom to offload now and throughout the game they did look to vary it up a bit so maybe my perception of the attack was coloured with them being camped in the Welsh 22 for so long.


The Welsh are the best defensive team in the world and are impressive in how they can get away with so many rules being bent. That has to be taken into account.
Think that’s a fair summary. In terms of building into the tournament, you want the foundation of defence to be secure. It looked good here. Ireland were up by 4 when, in an attacking position, Sexton gave that rusty pass that Biggar picked off. The scramble was excellent to get back, but it did eventually lead to their try. What other chances were given up? Very very little. Kearney did a great job of reading the reverse and kick for North early on - that saved a try, but there was little else. Now, Gatland gave off about Ireland’s play post-match, but Wales had the majority of possession and position in that first half and were unable to break us down. I would say that Aki will make a better effort at the tackle for their try when it’s not a warm-up game, but other than that - defensive platform is there.

I like the set up, format wise too of yesterday’s teamsheet. Kleyn will improve. He and Ryan together is big and physical and abrasive, then you’ve Henderson to come on who can play a bit more football. Henshaw and Aki are big and physical and abrasive. Then you’ve Ringrose to come on who can play a bit more football. Stander at 6, Conan at 8 is big and physical and abrasive. Then you’ve Ruddock to come on who is...well the same. Kilcoyne, Porter and Cronin all like the game opening up a bit too. So look, if we want to make sure we are steady to get into a game and then start opening up if we need to...we can do that.

Attack wise: yes, perhaps it’s the return of the meatgrinder, but I think it looked in good working order. Again, it’s a foundation. You can be sure Joe is scheming how best to develop within that structure and what wrinkles to write in. Layers will be added there.

Set piece... lineout improved. There was some bad luck in that we lost the first two, but one was a rethrow, which is always a bit guessy. We are having no disguise as yet or misdirection in the lineout. We will when we need to. It’s perfunctory at their minute, and that’s ok, considering we are tying a hand behind our back like that. Scrum we have to be pleased with, especially against their replacement front row, and against AWJ prior to that. I’ve said recently here I also had the concerns with Kilcoyne’s angles mentioned above, but to be fair his technique has improved over the last while, and he is a powerful fella - often he is able to just power through and win out so that no question gets asked of him. Porter is still a learning tighthead too, but again, astonishing power and his technique improves every time you see him.

Breakdown wise we presented a good picture. Penalties given away at times through over enthusiasm, I’m thinking Kleyn offside and JVDF counter rucking, but overall we were clean. Stander, Ryan and best were an awful nuisance to them and we cleared our attacking ball pretty efficiently.

I’m happy with where it’s at, but i do think we have a really tricky draw. Samoa were competitive with Australia yesterday. You give them targets, they are gonna smash people. I watch an awful lot of the sunwolves and always caution about them and Japan when they get their tails up. At home in a World Cup - their tails will be up. We’ve beaten them well a few times now, so our radar may be dialled down to the danger there - it is dangerous. And then Scotland (and Gregor Townsend) know and understand us better than probably anybody else. Those are tricky games, and if you don’t trip up you have one of the 2 teams everyone wants to avoid at the exact point everyone wants to avoid them. It’s a much worse path than 4 years ago, but I think we are better ready.

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Re: RWC 2019 Warmup Games

Post by neiliog93 »

We don't have a really tricky pool, it is by a distance the easiest pool in the RWC. If we'd gotten France, Argentina, USA and Tonga as first seeds, we'd feel much harder done by.

Ditto South Africa, Italy, Namibia and Canada; or Wales, Georgia, Fiji, and Uruguay.
Last edited by neiliog93 on September 8th, 2019, 1:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: RWC 2019 Warmup Games

Post by Oldschool »

So end of warmups progress report.
1. Last AIs, Ireland peaked in a trial run for the RWC this autumn, trend is on target.
2. Kleyn, have always been of the opinion that a new international should be given at least 6 caps to bed them in. It's likely that Toner is not available (for whatever reason) and can't travel.
That been the case, with Roux injured, we're lucky to have Kleyn to fall back on.
3. Specific Player issues.
BR
The question to ask is not was player A quiet or whatever.
It's all about the BR as a unit.
Without a doubt that was the best performance from our BR for a while, Stander, back in his best position, was invigorated.
Hooker, Best can certainly 50mins for us and that might just be enough.
SH Murray starting to trend upwards, at last
OH still worried, that intercept pass was so remindful of the Saracens game. Rust maybe but Biggar was looking for it, expecting it to come and he wasn't wrong.
The real positive was Henshaw's performance, he is vital to a successful RWC.
Larmour, at last, did what everyone wants to see.
He gave a very solid performance, did the basics well and if he's patient, the opportunities will come.
Joe and the coaches.
Without knowing the full story on player selection, the team performance has been trending upwards and that's the collective.
Joe has been such a good coach for so long, we just have to trust him.
Kilcoyne's selection has proven Joe is living in the moment, where he should and needs to be.
If you think back, Joe recognised we could have a problem at LH. Most of us would have been thinking that Jack would come right and we'd be fine.
We'd have been wrong.
That was ballsy by Joe.
Feek deserves special mention, too, for his roll.
He would have been asked to assess the situation.
Joe and Feek are NZers.
The one thing I always found notable was their knack of being able to identify a problem and come up with solutions.
For that reason I really want us to meet SA in the QF.
NZ would see us as a problem, enough said.
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hugonaut
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Re: RWC 2019 Warmup Games

Post by hugonaut »

neiliog93 wrote:Re Conan, an interesting point - in the last two games he has made a number of eye-catching dominant tackles in defence, but hasn't been as effective a ball carrier as we've come to expect. For most of his career up to now, he has been criticised for carrying strongly but not making the same physical impact in defence (something he acknowledged the Irish coaching staff had highlighted to him as a 'work-on'). A strange inversion seems to have occurred!

On the other hand, it was CJ's best game for Ireland, and possibly best game overall, in a very long time. Ditto for van der Flier.

In the backline, I thought Aki was really good again - his passing has often frustrated me, but aside from one example today his delivery was crisp. His ball-carrying has looked good, as has his defence. I would say Ringrose might be under pressure for his place, especially as Joe likes big centres. Of course, neither Aki nor Henshaw are particularly big by the standards of modern centres but they are beefier than Garry.
It's going to be very interesting to see how the backrow selection pans out for the first game, given what we have seen from the last four matches. Obviously O'Donnell and Murphy aren't in the squad, so the nature of their contributions is, at this stage, largely irrelevant.

vs Italy:
No6: Ruddock
No7: O'Donnell
No8: Murphy
Sub: Beirne

vs England
No6: O'Mahony
No7: van der Flier
No8: Stander
Sub: Beirne

@ Wales
No6: Beirne
No7: O'Mahony
No8: Conan
Sub: Murphy

vs Wales:
No6: Stander
No7: van der Flier
No8: Conan
Sub: Ruddock

We've seen four different players start at blindside: Ruddock, O'Mahony, Beirne and Stander. All four are in the squad, and I would therefore suggest that this is the most highly contested position in the starting XV. Two of the above players have played blindside almost exclusively this season [O'Mahony and Ruddock], the other two have primarily played in other positions this season [Stander at No8, Beirne in the row].

O'Mahony and Beirne are excellent lineout options who are good over the ball; Ruddock and Stander are hitters who excel in contact. The decision on who to start against Scotland is quite difficult, because there's a good argument for any of the four, but nobody has put in a stand-out performance in these games. Arguably Stander has done the most - a decent showing in our best performance.

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neiliog93
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Re: RWC 2019 Warmup Games

Post by neiliog93 »

If do end up playing South Africa in a 1/4 final (and have a clean bill of health), I wouldn't be surprised to see something like this:

4.Kleyn 5.Ja.Ryan

6.Ruddock 8.Stander 7.POM

19.Henderson 20.VDF/Beirne/Conan
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Re: RWC 2019 Warmup Games

Post by blockhead »

neiliog93 wrote:If do end up playing South Africa in a 1/4 final (and have a clean bill of health), I wouldn't be surprised to see something like this:

4.Kleyn 5.Ja.Ryan

6.Ruddock 8.Stander 7.POM

19.Henderson 20.VDF/Beirne/Conan
WTF! Are you on glue?
No way Kleyn gets beyond Hendo. And JVDF is the only real 7 we have.
It'll be POM, CJ ,JVDF for the backrow.
As much as I love Ruddock and Conan, they simply haven't done enough to unseat POM and CJ.
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