Tour to NZ 2022

[Oldschool]

Certainly, if I was in Faz mór's shoes, having watched that Munster performance in Ravenhill, I wouldn't be bringing either Carbery or Murray to NZ.

Absolutely. Both of them have just about done enough in green this season for Farrell to get away with picking them but surely that can’t continue after last night?

If Joey starts next season in better form under a new coach and with Casey as the starting nine then great he should be an option in November but for now it makes no sense to bring him to NZ.

At best Joey would be my 7th choice ten for Ireland right now. That isn’t an an exaggeration, I’d have all four Leinster tens ahead of him and then Carty and Burns. It’d be a toss up then with Healy. Murray would be my 9th choice at the moment. Again that’s not an exaggeration, none of JGP, Casey, Marmion, Blade, Luke, Cooney, Doak or even Nick McCarthy would have put in that kind of performance last night. You also have to factor in that it’s not just temporary form, Murray’s been poor since the tests in Australia four years ago, and Joey’s last promising signs as a ten were probably over three years ago. In Murray’s case you also factor in that his style of play doesn’t suit what Ireland are trying to do.

POM was as anonymous as it's possible to be, he needs a rest to recharge the batteries or that should be the excuse used for not bringing him to NZ.
Murray is another player who needs a rest.
If I were Carbery I'd be praying that Murray gets one and doesn't go on tour to NZ and that I got play with JGP at SH.

[sunshiner1]

by Oldschool

Murray is another player who needs a rest.
If I were Carbery I'd be praying that Murray gets one and doesn't go on tour to NZ and that I got play with JGP at SH.

Murray is a shadow of his former self. While he has a great rugby brain he hasn't been anywhere close to his full standard in a long time. I think Farrell needs to put him out to pasture and look for someone else to be JGP's backp-up.

[ronk]

Not getting picked for the Lions did wonders for Sexton and Ryan. Getting dropped by Ireland was the spur that kicked Lowe on to the next level.

I say drop Murray. But a soft one where there's a way back not a hard one.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

I would hope that the Irish coaches have a word with the Munster ones about their plans for next season. If Rowntree says he’s backing Casey as his number 9 and doesn’t have Joey in mind as the starting ten then that should feed into the selection for the tour.

Leo’s plans should be a factor too. If he says that they’re looking to have Frawley as the number 22 in big games (there’s no suggestion of this but I think it should be the case) and Baird will be playing a lot at 6 then that kind of info should be accounted for in the coming weeks.

[Oldschool]

I would hope that the Irish coaches have a word with the Munster ones about their plans for next season. If Rowntree says he’s backing Casey as his number 9 and doesn’t have Joey in mind as the starting ten then that should feed into the selection for the tour.

Leo’s plans should be a factor too. If he says that they’re looking to have Frawley as the number 22 in big games (there’s no suggestion of this but I think it should be the case) and Baird will be playing a lot at 6 then that kind of info should be accounted for in the coming weeks.

That's probably a two way conversation that definitely should take place.
Also Faz should be talking to all the provinces about the style he wants them to play.
Speed and accuracy of pass from a SH would surely be regarded as a minimum requirement.

[IanD]

I would hope that the Irish coaches have a word with the Munster ones about their plans for next season. If Rowntree says he’s backing Casey as his number 9 and doesn’t have Joey in mind as the starting ten then that should feed into the selection for the tour.

Leo’s plans should be a factor too. If he says that they’re looking to have Frawley as the number 22 in big games (there’s no suggestion of this but I think it should be the case) and Baird will be playing a lot at 6 then that kind of info should be accounted for in the coming weeks.

Surely that goes the other way.

Farrell should be telling Munster who he wants at 9 and 10.

Similarly if he sees Baird as a second row he tells Leinster.

[fourthirtythree]

I would hope that the Irish coaches have a word with the Munster ones about their plans for next season. If Rowntree says he’s backing Casey as his number 9 and doesn’t have Joey in mind as the starting ten then that should feed into the selection for the tour.

Leo’s plans should be a factor too. If he says that they’re looking to have Frawley as the number 22 in big games (there’s no suggestion of this but I think it should be the case) and Baird will be playing a lot at 6 then that kind of info should be accounted for in the coming weeks.

Surely that goes the other way.

Farrell should be telling Munster who he wants at 9 and 10.

Similarly if he sees Baird as a second row he tells Leinster.

You don't think that he would listen to the coaches who see the players day to day? Sure, they have different resources and goals so he may override them but I don't see him as someone turning down knowledge and insight.

[leinsterforever]

He seems more ready to upend provincial pecking orders than previous coaches of the national team - JGP ahead of McGrath, O'Toole ahead of Moore, Shane Daly ahead of Haley, Treadwell ahead of AOC, Harry ahead of Ross Byrne. Possibly Baird ahead of Molony too, although maybe Baird was ahead at Leinster at the time he broke into the Ireland set-up.

[the spoofer]

There is a fair bit of cheerleading coming out of the Nordies for their lads after their win on Friday with some of it justified. Hume is definitely becoming an option in the centre for Ireland and that is great to see. The chat around Doak seems a bit misplaced as he is picking up 10 minutes at the end of games behind a lad who isn't near the squad. He'd be a bit down my list of 9's at the moment with JGP, Marmion, Cooney, Casey< Murray and Blade all ahead of him.

I rewatched the game and can not understand the negative review of R Byrne. He had a fine game with one or two errors. His passing is top notch and I'd have him as number 2 to Sexton in NZ with Jack Carty 3 and bring Frawley as possible cover. Burns and Carbery should be on the beach.

[ronk]

There is a fair bit of cheerleading coming out of the Nordies for their lads after their win on Friday with some of it justified. Hume is definitely becoming an option in the centre for Ireland and that is great to see. The chat around Doak seems a bit misplaced as he is picking up 10 minutes at the end of games behind a lad who isn't near the squad. He'd be a bit down my list of 9's at the moment with JGP, Marmion, Cooney, Casey< Murray and Blade all ahead of him.

I rewatched the game and can not understand the negative review of R Byrne. He had a fine game with one or two errors. His passing is top notch and I'd have him as number 2 to Sexton in NZ with Jack Carty 3 and bring Frawley as possible cover. Burns and Carbery should be on the beach.

Agree about Ross.

The thing with Doak is that the gap to Casey is the one that matters. And that one is a bit more arguable, or at least was when the debate started. Casey and Doak are the scrumhalves worth development minutes at the moment, either could bolt. Foley briefly looked worth a closer look but he's injured now for the next tour.

[riocard911]

I thought Doak did extremely well over the weeks (months?), while Cooney was out injured, as Ulster's starting scrum-half. "To the manor born" was my outstanding impression.

[paddyor]

Carty will miss the tour with a wrist injury so an opening for HB

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Carty will miss the tour with a wrist injury so an opening for HB

Sounds like Lowry is touch and go after "facial surgery" as well. Plenty of time for more injuries to rule lads out but two openings there could lead to some interesting selections.

[kUD]

Now that there's no Irish interest in the URC I wonder if they'll get into Ireland camp a week earlier, or fly down to NZ a bit sooner.

[betty swallocks]

Assuming a squad of 40 with Kilcoyne, Kelliher, Connors, Carty, Stockdale, and Lowry ruled out by injury could the squad look something like this:
Props: Porter, Healy, Loughman, Wycherly, Furlong, Bealham, and O'Toole.
Hookers: Sheahan, Herring, and Heffernan.
Locks: Ryan, Henderson, Beirne, Baird, and Thornbury.
Back Row: Doris, O'Mahony, Prendergast, Conan, VDF, Coombes, and Timoney.
Scrum Half: JGP, Murray, and Casey.
Out Half: Sexton, Carbury, and Frawley.
Centres: Aki, Henshaw, Ringrose, Hume, and McCloskey.
Back Three: Keenan, Hansen, Lowe, Conway, Earls, Balacoune, and Haley.
There are arguments to say that the likes of Murray and Carbury should be left behind in terms of current form, but we all know that won't happen. Similarly there are arguments for O'Sullivan or E Byrne to sneak in instead of Loughman. There's a case for Kleyn or Joe McCarthy in the row instead of Baird or Thornbury, and possibly Jack O'Donoghue for Timoney in the back row.

[ronk]

NZ squad named according to https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/rugby- ... I2K2PH3ZU/


Forwards

Hookers
Dane Coles (Hurricanes, Wellington)
Codie Taylor (Crusaders, Canterbury)
Samisoni Taukei'aho (Chiefs, Waikato)
Props
Aidan Ross* (Chiefs, Bay of Plenty)
George Bower (Crusaders, Otago)
Nepo Laulala (Blues, Counties Manukau)
Ofa Tuungafasi (Blues, Northland)
Karl Tu'inukuafe (Blues, North Harbour)
Angus Ta'avao (Chiefs, Auckland)

Locks
Samuel Whitelock (Crusaders, Canterbury)
Brodie Retallick (Chiefs, Hawkes Bay)
Scott Barrett (Crusaders, Taranaki)
Josh Lord (Chiefs, Taranaki)
Tupou Vaa'i (Chiefs, Taranaki)

Loose Forwards
Pita Gus Sowakula* (Chiefs, Taranaki)
Sam Cane – Captain (Chiefs, Bay of Plenty)
Dalton Papalii (Blues, Counties Manukau)
Ardie Savea (Hurricanes, Wellington)
Akira Ioane (Blues, Auckland)
Hoskins Sotutu (Blues, Counties Manukau)

Backs

Halfbacks
Folau Fakatava* (Highlanders, Hawkes Bay)
Aaron Smith (Highlanders, Manawatu)
Finlay Christie (Blues, Tasman)

First five-eighths
Stephen Perofeta* (Blues, Taranaki)
Beauden Barrett (Blues, Taranaki)
Richie Mo'unga (Crusaders, Canterbury)

Mid-fielders
Roger Tuivasa-Sheck* (Blues, Auckland)
Quinn Tupaea (Chiefs, Waikato)
Jack Goodhue (Crusaders, Northland)
Rieko Ioane (Blues, Auckland)
David Havili (Crusaders, Tasman)

Outside backs
Leicester Fainga'anuku* (Crusaders, Tasman)
Jordie Barrett (Hurricanes, Taranaki)
Will Jordan (Crusaders, Tasman)
Caleb Clarke (Blues, Auckland)
Sevu Reece (Crusaders, Tasman

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Questions around prop and who partners Ioane in the centre but it’s a really strong squad. Imagine us being brave enough to leave out an experienced scrumhalf like TJP…

If Jäger didn’t make that squad then it’s hard to see him ever doing it, probably a good time for Munster to try and swoop in. I don’t think he’s any great shakes but he’d be a good signing for them or Connacht, would still love for him to get an NZ cap though, he’s put in an an amazing effort to get one and it’d be some achievement.

[wixfjord]

Would love to see them go with Tuivasa Sheck at 12 and see how Bundee/Robbie would go against him.

His stepping and upper body power is incredible but positionally and attack wise he's all at sea when I've seen him play for the Blues (which he should be considering he's played a decade of league).

Could be targeted in the heat of a test.

[RoboProp]

NZ squad named according to https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/rugby- ... I2K2PH3ZU/


Forwards

Hookers
Dane Coles (Hurricanes, Wellington)
Codie Taylor (Crusaders, Canterbury)
Samisoni Taukei'aho (Chiefs, Waikato)
Props
Aidan Ross* (Chiefs, Bay of Plenty)
George Bower (Crusaders, Otago)
Nepo Laulala (Blues, Counties Manukau)
Ofa Tuungafasi (Blues, Northland)
Karl Tu'inukuafe (Blues, North Harbour)
Angus Ta'avao (Chiefs, Auckland)

Locks
Samuel Whitelock (Crusaders, Canterbury)
Brodie Retallick (Chiefs, Hawkes Bay)
Scott Barrett (Crusaders, Taranaki)
Josh Lord (Chiefs, Taranaki)
Tupou Vaa'i (Chiefs, Taranaki)

Loose Forwards
Pita Gus Sowakula* (Chiefs, Taranaki)
Sam Cane – Captain (Chiefs, Bay of Plenty)
Dalton Papalii (Blues, Counties Manukau)
Ardie Savea (Hurricanes, Wellington)
Akira Ioane (Blues, Auckland)
Hoskins Sotutu (Blues, Counties Manukau)

Backs

Halfbacks
Folau Fakatava* (Highlanders, Hawkes Bay)
Aaron Smith (Highlanders, Manawatu)
Finlay Christie (Blues, Tasman)

First five-eighths
Stephen Perofeta* (Blues, Taranaki)
Beauden Barrett (Blues, Taranaki)
Richie Mo'unga (Crusaders, Canterbury)

Mid-fielders
Roger Tuivasa-Sheck* (Blues, Auckland)
Quinn Tupaea (Chiefs, Waikato)
Jack Goodhue (Crusaders, Northland)
Rieko Ioane (Blues, Auckland)
David Havili (Crusaders, Tasman)

Outside backs
Leicester Fainga'anuku* (Crusaders, Tasman)
Jordie Barrett (Hurricanes, Taranaki)
Will Jordan (Crusaders, Tasman)
Caleb Clarke (Blues, Auckland)
Sevu Reece (Crusaders, Tasman

What's the story with Oli Jager, how close is he to actually getting capped by NZ? Surprised no province has tried to lure him back.

[Ruckedtobits]

On March 22nd, I posted a fairly detailed post earlier on this thread. Lots of water has passed under the bridge in the less than 3 months period and I have reviewed and revised some of the content, updated below:

The composition of a Tour Party is not pre-determined except for the International game requirements for front-row players - recently brought into sharp focus by events in the Ireland v Italy 6 Nations debacle.

Pre-existing Assumptions in Squad Selection

* Assume three hookers needed for each game - in case of pre-match injury;
* Assume three scrum-halves needed for each game - in case of pre-match injury;
* Assume 3 LHPs & 3 THP's for each game - in case of pre-match injury - unless 'dual player' e.g. Healy, available.

So that's probably 12 players selected to fill just four positions, it might be only 10 / 11 if Porter and Healy were considered 'dual-sided' props.

* Back Three positions are considered non-attritional, I.e. playing twice in a week is possible. Selection here will be based on strength in depth, say 2 FBs and 4 Wings;
* Selection of Centres will be focused on the available strengths. Say 4 selections;
* Selection of Out-halves often brings to mind the NZ experience of their home World Cup Final. Assume three selections, one of whom may also be a 'dual-option' possibly FB or No 12;
* Selection between 2nd Row and Back-rows can often be a function of the available players. Assume two Open-side flanker and two specialist No 8's. After that, some teams will have 3 Second-row only players and up to 3 versatile players who can play 5, 6 or 8;

By my calculation, and assuming only 11 automatic Front-row & SH selections, it will be hard to pick a Tour Party of less than 37/38.

Initial Selection - no injuries assumed

At the outset, it's realistic to assume no injuries. However, a brief scan of every Irish Tour Party to NZ since 2002 and there has been four, shows that one can predict we'll probably lose 3/4 players to injury prior to departure. I have bolded the players in my original list who are now injured or formally retired.

The names below are offered on the assumption that all will be fit to travel. Those in brackets are suggested as possible candidates, depending on numbers approved to travel

Front-Row Forwards
Furlong, Porter, Kelleher, Sheehan, Herring, Bealham, Healy, (O'Toole), J McGrath

Second-row
Ryan, Henderson, Beirne, Baird, (J McCarthy / K Treadwell / R Molony)

Back-row
JVdF, Doris, Conan, O'Mahony, Timoney, Coombes, Leavy

Scrum-halves
JGP, Murray, (Casey / Marmion / Doak)

Out-halves
Sexton, Carbery, (Carty/Byrne R / Lowry)

Centres
Aki, Henshaw, Ringrose, Hume

Back Three
Keenan, Lowry, Conway, Lowe, Hansen, Baloucoune, Earls, (Larmour)

That's 40 names in total (21 Forwards, 19 Backs), possibly a couple more than might be permitted. I've included extras in front-row, back-row, 2nd row, half-backs, back three. It's clear that, barring injury, there won't be any 'soft' selections. However, who knows? Hanson wasn't in too many selections prior to the Welsh game and Sheehan only figured on the Leinster fans' selections until towards the middle of the 6Ns.

The last fortnight / three weeks has decidedly altered the picture and prospects of the Irish Tour to NZ. The manner of Leinster's loss of a final and semi-final, coupled with Ulster's loss of a semi-final and Munster's virtual disintegration since their overtime loss to Toulouse, have shone a light on places that Irish rugby would rather avoid, or ignore.

However, if this is our reality at present, maybe it's better that we accept this new starting point and use the Tour to prepare for what will be a very arduous 16 months to the end of RWC2023. The announcement of the Touring Party will no doubt be of interest to fans all around the country. I wonder how many of the players selected will look forward to it with the same anticipation?