Tour to NZ 2022

[munster#1]

Unfortunately, looking at the team and the available squad, I don’t think we have the players to address our issues with changes.
In the scrum we are lacking a large TH lock, which is made more serious when you have Sheehan at Hooker, who is yet to reach his full size.

Even looking at players left behind, there’s nobody standing out as someone who could improve on today.

For Ireland to improve, it will have to come from the coaching staff and the senior players.
Ireland showed lots of promise in attack. Far more than I expected, but we’re second best in so many facets of the game.

[OneLungDavy]

Frustrating game from our point of view. Henshaw, Sheehan, VDF and POM were all good. Ringrose mixed good and bad. Some great hits and took his try well but was centrally involved in two of their tries.

Sexton started very well mixing it up nicely. Concerning how we lost all shape once he went off though. Carbery just isn’t able to run the back line and all those lovely lines and options we’ve seen go out the window.

Our set piece struggled and we got no joy out of the maul. Flogging Porter (and Sheehan since Kellehers injury against France) is a concern. Healy was obviously not fit to be on the bench. Maybe the plan was to switch him for TOT but COVID played our hand.

I’m not sure i’d be too fearful of this NZ. They looked a bit nervy in the first 20-30mins against us until Reece scored. The next 10 was a disaster for us. I wouldn’t look at them and think they’re streets ahead of us with no way of bridging the gap. A lot of their scores were from poor errors by us. They just happen to be the best team in the world at capitalising on any mistakes.

Their defence was excellent today too but we made it easy for them as we lost our shape once Sexton went off. Physically I thought we were well matched.

Would agree with a lot of that, particularly the bold.

Joey just looks like rabbit in headlights constantly. Crabbing sideways and not putting any shape on attack. He has absolutely no physical presence. The tackle avoidance was just ridiculous. Can't do that at this level.

I don't think this is a vintage NZ team at all though. Albeit we don't have the 23 to take them on at the moment.

Carberry just looks so slow and predictable. There's no zip to his game. It's quite insidious when a 37 year old looks so much sharper.

[suisse]

For all the conversation about depth, Leinster's academy, the school's system in Leinster, IRFU player welfare, managing of players, here we are, in 2022, and a test match still depends entirely on Johnny Sexton's well being

After a good run of form, or mediocre success, there are people in the media who can't help but lash on the praise. In some ways, I feel sorry for them. If you have an alternative opinion, you're labeled "negative" and told to go away. OTB, especially, were tripping over themselves after the Leicester QF to get enough ppl on to talk up the world class Leinster academy. There are Leinster fans online convinced we are the best club in the world after some Pro14 hammerings.

The skills under pressure are not there. Leinster would be blown away in Eden Park v Blues or ChCh v Crusaders.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

So was Healy actually healthy enough to play? What was the point in flogging Porter in a hammering?

I can’t remember a game where we started so well and fell apart so quickly. That ten minutes before half time was appalling, so many sloppy errors and stupid decisions. We need to learn that there are times when we need a breather and that kicking the ball off the field is the best thing to do. JGP ran the ball a couple of times when it really wasn’t on and we just started drowning.

If you look at Beirne for the try that Barrett chipped through the guy was, understandably, bolloxed already. Lots of other players walking around in open play at times but we just made it worse on ourselves. The difference in our tackling after that first 25 minutes or so was stark.

Can't say for certain, but I would suspect that Healy wasn't fit enough to play. That dude is as tough as they come and he was in serious pain coming off the pitch three days ago.

Ed Byrne isn't in the country yet, Loughman is concussed, Bealham has covid Covid. We only have four fit props. If we didn't name Healy on the bench, we were down to either calling in Bent [which we might have had to do] or concede the match. Realistically, we would have called in Bent, because I just can't see the circumstance in which we would have pulled out of a sold out test match. We'd be Public Enemy #1 in NZ and a laughing stock around the rugby world.

A lot of talk about calling up Ollie Jager [a tighthead, not a loosehead], but from everything I have read or heard, Ollie Jager doesn't want to play for Ireland. It's his call. He has been out in NZ more or less full time since doing his Leaving Cert – seven years now. His dad is Dutch and his family live in Abu Dhabi, not necessarily his prerogative to play for Ireland.

Yeah but the issue for me is that Healy was named in the original 23, I’d have more sympathy if he’d been ruled out a couple of days ago and came in for Bealham this morning to make up the numbers.

Is there any scope for special dispensation to draft someone in to make up the numbers? There really should be, particularly in Covid times.

But regardless we have planned this tour terribly and that was clear from when the squad was announced. We didn’t learn our lesson then when Herring, Henderson and the looseheads got injured. There should have been at least four bodies called up after the Maori game and now another one or two after today. We are sleepwalking into an absolute clusterfuck for the two games after the second test.

Edit: By special dispensation I mean giving a front rower a freebie to play for a country they might not be qualified for if there isn’t time to call up a replacement.

[wixfjord]

For all the conversation about depth, Leinster's academy, the school's system in Leinster, IRFU player welfare, managing of players, here we are, in 2022, and a test match still depends entirely on Johnny Sexton's well being

After a good run of form, or mediocre success, there are people in the media who can't help but lash on the praise. In some ways, I feel sorry for them. If you have an alternative opinion, you're labeled "negative" and told to go away. OTB, especially, were tripping over themselves after the Leicester QF to get enough ppl on to talk up the world class Leinster academy. There are Leinster fans online convinced we are the best club in the world after some Pro14 hammerings.

The skills under pressure are not there. Leinster would be blown away in Eden Park v Blues or ChCh v Crusaders.

While I agree that we really overhype our sides (particularly on this forum), what exactly are you basing that analysis on?

We signed Crusaders starting TH at the start of the year and while he has had a good season, is very much second choice and struggled a bit with power at the top end of Euro rugby.

There were far more Leinster players in the starting 15s this morning than any other team.

Crusaders and Blues have great handling skills, but that alone doesn't win games at a high level of rugby.

[jezzer]

the thing is they were having to make more tackles than us. What Beirne was doing stepping in I don't know. The amount of clearing beyond the ruck, lying on the wrong side, and entry ( perfect example Whitelock on the line) by the ABs allowed by Dickson was ridiculous. Finally a YC in min 78. We didn't adapt to Dickson's interpretation and do likewise.

I agree. Don't like moaning about refs after a loss, and he's certainly not the reason we lost – they cut our throats in the second quarter and were deserved winners.

But you can't 'adapt' to guys lying on the wrong side. Raking isn't in the game anymore - certainly not the sort of raking that is going to dissuade an All Black from doing his bit for his national side in Eden Park. You have to rely on the ref to penalise it, otherwise you've got slower ball throughout the game and it is more difficult to catch the defence unaligned.

We conceded five breakdown penalties in the first half alone against the Maori, and three of them were for lying on the wrong side. That was Barnes, an English ref, and this was Dickson, also an English ref. Very different refereeing of that part of the game. The game was reffed one way in Hamilton [correctly, in my opinion], and it went against us. It was reffed another way in Auckland [incorrectly, IMO] and it went against us this time too. Tough scene.

Yup, add to that the fact we had penalty advantage just before the Reece try which was never called back, VDF was visibly held trying to get up from the ruck which opened the pillar position for Smith to break for the other try. Persistent goal line infringements which never got punished till the game was put to bed.

That's what you get in NZ. They infringe all day and they know the ref won't give all of them.

[Experimental]

Congrats to New Zealand on first blood. Thought Sheehan had a really good game in the loose, and was probably our best player today followed by O'Mahony, but we were our own worst enemies. Henshaw and Lowe played well. The scoreline looks horrible, but I think the performance was not too bad and definately something to build on. At least now we know where we're at. The ref was a bit harsh on us, let NZ away with a good few offsides and coming in at the sides. Our loose fowards were not on the same wavelength as Gibson Park today, who wanted to play a much faster game. Ringrose made a few appauling errors which cost us dear. Our biggest problem tho, the scrum, I dont know how bad it has to get before something changes?? In the red zone VDF and Conan just have to be scoring those tries. For the test next week, Hansen for Earls(if hes back from covid), Bundee for Ringrose, H Byrne/Frawley to start. Its sadly beginning to look like we are using Sexton as a crutch, we should have been taking a leaf out of Rassies book and be just bringing him on at the end to close out a game like he does with M Steyn.

Id imagine Newzealand will make changes after seeing that, I think they will be very relieved, the scoreline totally flatters them imo, France and SA wont be too worried I dont think.

[desperado]

Sheehan was poor.

That's not true at all though.

The lineout was poor. Part of that down to him, part of it down to the unit.

In open play he was excellent as usual, our most powerful forward and by far most metres carried. Even when he came back on he was making breaks.

Okay, he was mediocre - in Irish rugby we have to stop allowing guys in skill positions who can't execute the skills at the top level have a pass because they're good around the park. We will not win a world cup, 6 Nations, HECC or URC (not now anyways) with a sub 90% lineout. I agree that it's not all the hookers fault, there are a lot of moving parts to a lineout, but it's a consistant problem in Irish Rugby. Ireland haven't had a hooker who can throw well since Flannery, and Leinster - Shane Byrne, who retired over 15 years ago!?

Aaron Dundon?

[desperado]

Sheehan was poor.

That's not true at all though.

The lineout was poor. Part of that down to him, part of it down to the unit.

In open play he was excellent as usual, our most powerful forward and by far most metres carried. Even when he came back on he was making breaks.

Okay, he was mediocre - in Irish rugby we have to stop allowing guys in skill positions who can't execute the skills at the top level have a pass because they're good around the park. We will not win a world cup, 6 Nations, HECC or URC (not now anyways) with a sub 90% lineout. I agree that it's not all the hookers fault, there are a lot of moving parts to a lineout, but it's a consistant problem in Irish Rugby. Ireland haven't had a hooker who can throw well since Flannery, and Leinster - Shane Byrne, who retired over 15 years ago!?

Aaron Dundon?

[desperado]

Sheehan was poor.

That's not true at all though.

The lineout was poor. Part of that down to him, part of it down to the unit.

In open play he was excellent as usual, our most powerful forward and by far most metres carried. Even when he came back on he was making breaks.

Okay, he was mediocre - in Irish rugby we have to stop allowing guys in skill positions who can't execute the skills at the top level have a pass because they're good around the park. We will not win a world cup, 6 Nations, HECC or URC (not now anyways) with a sub 90% lineout. I agree that it's not all the hookers fault, there are a lot of moving parts to a lineout, but it's a consistant problem in Irish Rugby. Ireland haven't had a hooker who can throw well since Flannery, and Leinster - Shane Byrne, who retired over 15 years ago!?

Aaron Dundon?

[OneLungDavy]

How often do we see Ringrose make some howlers in big games! He had some good moments today but he needs to cut those silly errors out of his game.

I'd like to see Larmour given a go, Earls got a lot of ball today and took his try well, but I feel if Larmour got the same ball he would have done a lot more damage.

I'm impressed with Ryans physicality around the breakdown, some of his rucking was immense and it has become a consistent part of his game. He needs to sort out the lineout though.

[Keith]

For all the conversation about depth, Leinster's academy, the school's system in Leinster, IRFU player welfare, managing of players, here we are, in 2022, and a test match still depends entirely on Johnny Sexton's well being

After a good run of form, or mediocre success, there are people in the media who can't help but lash on the praise. In some ways, I feel sorry for them. If you have an alternative opinion, you're labeled "negative" and told to go away. OTB, especially, were tripping over themselves after the Leicester QF to get enough ppl on to talk up the world class Leinster academy. There are Leinster fans online convinced we are the best club in the world after some Pro14 hammerings.

The skills under pressure are not there. Leinster would be blown away in Eden Park v Blues or ChCh v Crusaders.

While I agree that we really overhype our sides (particularly on this forum), what exactly are you basing that analysis on?

We signed Crusaders starting TH at the start of the year and while he has had a good season, is very much second choice and struggled a bit with power at the top end of Euro rugby.

There were far more Leinster players in the starting 15s this morning than any other team.

Crusaders and Blues have great handling skills, but that alone doesn't win games at a high level of rugby.

I agree that we overhype our teams and players but we also go way over the top in the criticism when we lose too. The nonsense that got spread on here after we lost in the last seconds of a hc final were embarrassing.

[wixfjord]

For all the conversation about depth, Leinster's academy, the school's system in Leinster, IRFU player welfare, managing of players, here we are, in 2022, and a test match still depends entirely on Johnny Sexton's well being

After a good run of form, or mediocre success, there are people in the media who can't help but lash on the praise. In some ways, I feel sorry for them. If you have an alternative opinion, you're labeled "negative" and told to go away. OTB, especially, were tripping over themselves after the Leicester QF to get enough ppl on to talk up the world class Leinster academy. There are Leinster fans online convinced we are the best club in the world after some Pro14 hammerings.

The skills under pressure are not there. Leinster would be blown away in Eden Park v Blues or ChCh v Crusaders.

While I agree that we really overhype our sides (particularly on this forum), what exactly are you basing that analysis on?

We signed Crusaders starting TH at the start of the year and while he has had a good season, is very much second choice and struggled a bit with power at the top end of Euro rugby.

There were far more Leinster players in the starting 15s this morning than any other team.

Crusaders and Blues have great handling skills, but that alone doesn't win games at a high level of rugby.

I agree that we overhype our teams and players but we also go way over the top in the criticism when we lose too. The nonsense that got spread on here after we lost in the last seconds of a hc final were embarrassing.

For example?

[Dave Cahill]

Ultimately, disappointing as this morning was, it doesn't really change very much in terms of the tour. We can still win a test against the ABs in New Zealand for the first time, we can stil win a series against New Zealand for the first time (bit of a stretch I know) and we will still have had a look at a number of 'second string' players.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Ultimately, disappointing as this morning was, it doesn't really change very much in terms of the tour. We can still win a test against the ABs in New Zealand for the first time, we can stil win a series against New Zealand for the first time (bit of a stretch I know) and we will still have had a look at a number of 'second string' players.

Personally I think we needed to show we could compete for 80 minutes in every game and back up performances. I think that was stated in November and during the 6N because it’s important to able to do it at a World Cup. I assume that would have been a big aim for the group and if I’m right then that’s a big failure so far.

And that’s one of my big worries, we don’t have that high baseline level of performance that we had under Joe before 2019. I thought we’d cracked it this season but apparently not.

[OTT]

This is a good thread, nothing to do with the lack of danger or how innocuous or borderline it was because they don’t come into it


https://twitter.com/samlstandsup/status ... Us1cJRsPjg

[cormac]

How was the clearout by NZ 6 on POM only a penalty? Clear shoulder to the head with no attempt to wrap. Dickson looking right at it.

[Oldschoolsocks]

That's not true at all though.

The lineout was poor. Part of that down to him, part of it down to the unit.

In open play he was excellent as usual, our most powerful forward and by far most metres carried. Even when he came back on he was making breaks.

Okay, he was mediocre - in Irish rugby we have to stop allowing guys in skill positions who can't execute the skills at the top level have a pass because they're good around the park. We will not win a world cup, 6 Nations, HECC or URC (not now anyways) with a sub 90% lineout. I agree that it's not all the hookers fault, there are a lot of moving parts to a lineout, but it's a consistant problem in Irish Rugby. Ireland haven't had a hooker who can throw well since Flannery, and Leinster - Shane Byrne, who retired over 15 years ago!?

Aaron Dundon?

You can say that again

[limecat]

How was the clearout by NZ 6 on POM only a penalty? Clear shoulder to the head with no attempt to wrap. Dickson looking right at it.

https://twitter.com/Sea__Point/status/1 ... 17G2Dmopbw

[Oldschoolsocks]

How was the clearout by NZ 6 on POM only a penalty? Clear shoulder to the head with no attempt to wrap. Dickson looking right at it.

Dickson shat the bed there, as clear a red as I’ve ever seen. He’s just not up to it