Tour to NZ 2022

[Dave Cahill]

Okay, thanks for that

Hard to understand that he didn't have a question to answer. Clearly shoulder to head with absolutely no attempt to bind.

Yeah, clear red card for me

[FLIP]

Why aren’t the coaching team kicking up a fuss about this?

Seems to be an IRFU policy to let foul play against our team go unchallenged if not picked up by citing commissioners. Hard to really develop a data set for it (if Xanthippe can't do it nobody can) but I really do think that we have less citing cases raised against our opposition than other side's.

Need to get over the Irish physce of being everyone's mates and stand up for ourselves.

Add to that the obvious favouritism show by World Rugby to The Brand and I'm not at all surprised by the lack of citing.

[CiaranIrl]

I don't think it's right to say Harry, Frawley, Healy, Crowley will 'never be at the required level'.

Many would've said the same about J10 pre May 2008.

All are guys with very high potential who haven't even been given a significant shot yet at a high provincial level, never mind in green.

Carty, Burns and Ross are a different story. All are 3/4 years older and have a lot more 'sample size'.

You're right. That's why I didn't say that.

No amount of giving international game time to Harry, Carty, Burns, Ross, Joey, Healy, Crowley, Frawley and whoever else is going to magically fix that they're not at that level right now and probably never will be

Yes, probably. That word is important. Do you think they probably will be the level required to win a test away against New Zealand? All of them? Pretty optimistic.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Why aren’t the coaching team kicking up a fuss about this?

Seems to be an IRFU policy to let foul play against our team go unchallenged if not picked up by citing commissioners. Hard to really develop a data set for it (if Xanthippe can't do it nobody can) but I really do think that we have less citing cases raised against our opposition than other side's.

Need to get over the Irish physce of being everyone's mates and stand up for ourselves.

Add to that the obvious favouritism show by World Rugby to The Brand and I'm not at all surprised by the lack of citing.

I’m not sure how we could go about it but I agree everyone should do more. I remember Rory Best kicking up a fuss in one game and when the ref told him to go away he said something like “I’ve a duty of care for my players”, and he was dead right.

It doesn’t even have to be serious foul play, side entries can be lethal and at times the breakdown can be far more dangerous than it needs to be. Give more of a voice to those on the receiving end of sh!t like what Barrett did to POM.

[Oldschoolsocks]

Why aren’t the coaching team kicking up a fuss about this?

Seems to be an IRFU policy to let foul play against our team go unchallenged if not picked up by citing commissioners. Hard to really develop a data set for it (if Xanthippe can't do it nobody can) but I really do think that we have less citing cases raised against our opposition than other side's.

Need to get over the Irish physce of being everyone's mates and stand up for ourselves.

Add to that the obvious favouritism show by World Rugby to The Brand and I'm not at all surprised by the lack of citing.

In my perfect world our captain on the day would have refused to play on until the play had been reviewed and accepted nothing less than a red card. In fact even do a 1990s ManU on the ref, let him send the entire team off. Might force the issue?

Pure fantasy I know and it’s totally against the whole respect for the ref that our sports is built upon.

[Oldschoolsocks]

Why aren’t the coaching team kicking up a fuss about this?

Seems to be an IRFU policy to let foul play against our team go unchallenged if not picked up by citing commissioners. Hard to really develop a data set for it (if Xanthippe can't do it nobody can) but I really do think that we have less citing cases raised against our opposition than other side's.

Need to get over the Irish physce of being everyone's mates and stand up for ourselves.

Add to that the obvious favouritism show by World Rugby to The Brand and I'm not at all surprised by the lack of citing.

I’m not sure how we could go about it but I agree everyone should do more. I remember Rory Best kicking up a fuss in one game and when the ref told him to go away he said something like “I’ve a duty of care for my players”, and he was dead right.

It doesn’t even have to be serious foul play, side entries can be lethal and at times the breakdown can be far more dangerous than it needs to be. Give more of a voice to those on the receiving end of sh!t like what Barrett did to POM.

I believe the way to do more is a concerted Press campaign plus a bit of an auld twitter bomb.

Much as I dislike his antics, Eddie Jones would be taking every opportunity at every press event to highlight it.

Reporter 1: Eddie, what does your selection look like for next Saturdays game?
Eddie: aw, I dunno mate. When the lads are just allowed to make no arm tackles to the head you’d have to wonder who has the hardest skull
Reporter 2: Eddie, what’s your kicking strategy for next match
Eddie: Like I said mate, that lad wasn’t even cited. It’s a right weird one. Maybe I’ll just get the lads into that one

As nauseum

[FLIP]

Why aren’t the coaching team kicking up a fuss about this?

Seems to be an IRFU policy to let foul play against our team go unchallenged if not picked up by citing commissioners. Hard to really develop a data set for it (if Xanthippe can't do it nobody can) but I really do think that we have less citing cases raised against our opposition than other side's.

Need to get over the Irish physce of being everyone's mates and stand up for ourselves.

Add to that the obvious favouritism show by World Rugby to The Brand and I'm not at all surprised by the lack of citing.

In my perfect world our captain on the day would have refused to play on until the play had been reviewed and accepted nothing less than a red card. In fact even do a 1990s ManU on the ref, let him send the entire team off. Might force the issue?

Pure fantasy I know and it’s totally against the whole respect for the ref that our sports is built upon.

Respect for the ref in how it is shown in our game is an ideal from the amateur age - a referee giving up their time at the weekend to allow others to play a game of rugby. But we're in a professional era now, and the referees are professional too. Respect can be shown to them while questioning their mistakes.

World Rugby would crucify any team that did such a thing.

[riocard911]

Why aren’t the coaching team kicking up a fuss about this?

Seems to be an IRFU policy to let foul play against our team go unchallenged if not picked up by citing commissioners. Hard to really develop a data set for it (if Xanthippe can't do it nobody can) but I really do think that we have less citing cases raised against our opposition than other side's.

Need to get over the Irish physce of being everyone's mates and stand up for ourselves.

Add to that the obvious favouritism show by World Rugby to The Brand and I'm not at all surprised by the lack of citing.

I’m not sure how we could go about it but I agree everyone should do more. I remember Rory Best kicking up a fuss in one game and when the ref told him to go away he said something like “I’ve a duty of care for my players”, and he was dead right.

It doesn’t even have to be serious foul play, side entries can be lethal and at times the breakdown can be far more dangerous than it needs to be. Give more of a voice to those on the receiving end of sh!t like what Barrett did to POM.

The match you're referring to was in Paris in the Six Nations. The French were seriously attacking our lads and the ref, Jaco Peyper, did nowt about it - to the extent of ignoring foul play as it happened right in front of him. Peyper was also the ref, the night NZ got their revenge on Ireland for the defeat a week before in Chicago. He's also officiating next Saturday and will do nothing to prevent transgressions by NZ. The guy is a total muppet, IMO.

I think a captain, who finds his team in a situation like Rory Best did that time in Paris, should put the ref officially on a warning, that he will remove his team, if nothing is done to protect them. If the ref doesn't respond appropriately and the trangressions continue, the team should leave the pitch.

[Oldschoolsocks]

Seems to be an IRFU policy to let foul play against our team go unchallenged if not picked up by citing commissioners. Hard to really develop a data set for it (if Xanthippe can't do it nobody can) but I really do think that we have less citing cases raised against our opposition than other side's.

Need to get over the Irish physce of being everyone's mates and stand up for ourselves.

Add to that the obvious favouritism show by World Rugby to The Brand and I'm not at all surprised by the lack of citing.

I’m not sure how we could go about it but I agree everyone should do more. I remember Rory Best kicking up a fuss in one game and when the ref told him to go away he said something like “I’ve a duty of care for my players”, and he was dead right.

It doesn’t even have to be serious foul play, side entries can be lethal and at times the breakdown can be far more dangerous than it needs to be. Give more of a voice to those on the receiving end of sh!t like what Barrett did to POM.

The match you're referring to was in Paris in the Six Nations. The French were seriously attacking our lads and the ref, Jaco Peyper, did nowt about it - to the extent of ignoring foul play as it happened right in front of him. Peyper was also the ref, the night NZ got their revenge on Ireland for the defeat a week before in Chicago. He's also officiating next Saturday and will do nothing to prevent transgressions by NZ. The guy is a total muppet, IMO.

I think a captain, who finds his team in a situation like Rory Best did that time in Paris, should put the ref officially on a warning, that he will remove his team, if nothing is done to protect them. If the ref doesn't respond appropriately and the trangressions continue, the team should leave the pitch.

Yup

[Oldschoolsocks]

Seems to be an IRFU policy to let foul play against our team go unchallenged if not picked up by citing commissioners. Hard to really develop a data set for it (if Xanthippe can't do it nobody can) but I really do think that we have less citing cases raised against our opposition than other side's.

Need to get over the Irish physce of being everyone's mates and stand up for ourselves.

Add to that the obvious favouritism show by World Rugby to The Brand and I'm not at all surprised by the lack of citing.

In my perfect world our captain on the day would have refused to play on until the play had been reviewed and accepted nothing less than a red card. In fact even do a 1990s ManU on the ref, let him send the entire team off. Might force the issue?

Pure fantasy I know and it’s totally against the whole respect for the ref that our sports is built upon.

Respect for the ref in how it is shown in our game is an ideal from the amateur age - a referee giving up their time at the weekend to allow others to play a game of rugby. But we're in a professional era now, and the referees are professional too. Respect can be shown to them while questioning their mistakes.

World Rugby would crucify any team that did such a thing.

Absolutely, but in my fantasy world (the laundryverse) we say f%~k you World Rugby, you’re nothing but a cheating shower of c**ts.

[Experimental]

Jaco Peyper is probably my least favourite ref, and is always unbelievably harsh on Ireland. Id love to know the stats of how many games weve won and lost with him as the ref, my guess is its close to 0

[wixfjord]

You're right. That's why I didn't say that.

No amount of giving international game time to Harry, Carty, Burns, Ross, Joey, Healy, Crowley, Frawley and whoever else is going to magically fix that they're not at that level right now and probably never will be

Yes, probably. That word is important. Do you think they probably will be the level required to win a test away against New Zealand? All of them? Pretty optimistic.

I don't think any Irish 10 is at the level required to win an away test in NZ at the moment personally.

But that's not relevant to the point you made, which was writing write off guys like Harry, Frawley, Healy, Crowley for the future.

We've no idea what these guys ceiling is, because none of them have reached anything near their peak yet and haven't been given consistent shots at 10
at Euro level, never mind in green.

[fourthirtythree]

Absolutely, but in my fantasy world (the laundryverse) we say f%~k you World Rugby, you’re nothing but a cheating shower of c**ts.

You do know Charlie keeps on having to drop dystopian fantasies as they get overtaken by a worse reality? I mean the reset has gone almost cartoonishly evil and he still has to drop bits and rewrite as reality outpaces in its sheer awfulness. Including a whole book I believe.

I was very disappointed that Hill wasn't cited, the blow to the face he gave caused the head to snap back, unlike the blow that was cited. I also thought the shoulder to the head of O'Mahony is a straight red or you can't pretend to care about head injuries with a straight face but then Skelton's on that English guy the other week was a whole level above either and not a peep there. They deserve to lose everything in the court cases that are coming their way.

And they will too.

[riocard911]

'Behind them, it's an absolute car crash... There's a big issue'

Without naming name(s), Birch pins Ireland's scrum woes on the IRFU and its lack of planning...

https://www.the42.ie/the42-rugby-weekly ... 7-Jul2022/

p.s. The guy, who's now running the NZ scrum side of things, Greg Feek, was let go part-time by the IRFU. I wonder who made that decision?

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Absolutely, but in my fantasy world (the laundryverse) we say f%~k you World Rugby, you’re nothing but a cheating shower of c**ts.

You do know Charlie keeps on having to drop dystopian fantasies as they get overtaken by a worse reality? I mean the reset has gone almost cartoonishly evil and he still has to drop bits and rewrite as reality outpaces in its sheer awfulness. Including a whole book I believe.

I was very disappointed that Hill wasn't cited, the blow to the face he gave caused the head to snap back, unlike the blow that was cited. I also thought the shoulder to the head of O'Mahony is a straight red or you can't pretend to care about head injuries with a straight face but then Skelton's on that English guy the other week was a whole level above either and not a peep there. They deserve to lose everything in the court cases that are coming their way.

And they will too.

Totally agree with that last part. If you change the laws in terms of players being stood down for longer after a concussion but then allow those incidents you mentioned go unpunished then you can’t point to the former and say you did all you could.

IMO WR are never proactive enough and then overreact to big incidents like Mealamu on BOD or Payne’s tackle in the air. Some decisions are hard to make and solution hard to find, but it’s not difficult to enforce the laws or cite foul play that has been caught on camera.

[paddyor]

Knives are really out for Ryan on the 42. The lineout malfunction does seem to be on his shoulders but I'm not sure about the rest of it. If you're asking him to play a specific way, and this applies to others too, he's going to not look like a traditional lock. It's like wondering why Conan doesn't carry like Stander.

[hugonaut]

'Behind them, it's an absolute car crash... There's a big issue'

Without naming name(s), Birch pins Ireland's scrum woes on the IRFU and its lack of planning...

https://www.the42.ie/the42-rugby-weekly ... 7-Jul2022/

p.s. The guy, who's now running the NZ scrum side of things, Greg Feek, was let go part-time by the IRFU. I wonder who made that decision?

I got into this with Birch on Twitter yesterday, along with some randomer crossfire. I normally don't bother arguing with people on the Internet, but I was a bit irritated after the match and tired of reading nonsense.

Leinster have five of Ireland's first-choice six front-rowers in a matchday squad: Sheehan [23], Kelleher [24], Porter [26], Furlong [29], Healy [34].

There are former Leinster players/academy players/age-grade players at prop in Ulster [Eric O'Sullivan, Marty Moore and until recently Jack McGrath], Connacht [Jordan Duggan, Jack Aungier, Sam Illo, Greg McGrath from the season just gone, now Pete Dooley] and Munster [Jerry Loughman and academy product Roman Salanoa]. That is just at prop.

How many props do you want us to produce? Every prop in Ireland? Leinster have a 'cartel' that is stockpiling props ... but there are a minimum of seven Leinster-born props, six of them in their 20s, playing for the other provinces. What Birch has just said is obviously nonsense. From my perspective he doesn't have the nerve to tell an uncomfortable truth.

The issue with Ireland's front row depth is nothing to do with Leinster and everything to do with Munster, Ulster and Connacht. There has been huge investment in their academies and development programmes from the IRFU and, in terms of front rowers, practically no return.

[Oldschoolsocks]

Knives are really out for Ryan on the 42. The lineout malfunction does seem to be on his shoulders but I'm not sure about the rest of it. If you're asking him to play a specific way, and this applies to others too, he's going to not look like a traditional lock. It's like wondering why Conan doesn't carry like Stander.

The usual suspects I suspect.

You can judge a posters rugby knowledge by what they post after any loss, and it does not reflect well on a lot of the 42ers

[hugonaut]

From my perspective, you have to walk around so many facts to get to his [public] point of view.

"Leinster are able to keep the best players until they make a decision at U20 level". Nobody's 'keeping' anybody – Leinster players want to play for Leinster shocker. Ask Jack Boyle if he wants to play for Munster or Leinster. Ask Tom Clarkson if he wants to play for Ulster or Leinster. The vast majority of them are under no contract to Leinster until U20 level; the sub-academy is unpaid. They can go wherever they want – Conor Nash went to Hawthorn for f*ck's sake.

Connacht made a big reach on Sam Illo, who started four of the Irish U20s' five games in 2021 as tighthead. They gave him a full contract when Leinster offered him an academy spot. Did Leinster stop Illo from talking to Connacht? No, obviously not. Did they offer him a full deal to 'stockpile' him? No. Illo went to Connacht as a 20 year pro and played 26 minutes.

It was a huge over-reach by Connacht [in my opinion]. That was this season, as recent as you can get. So that's a viable case study for Birch's proposed solution - take a first choice Irish U20 prop before he goes into the Leinster academy and give him a deal. What return did Connacht get on that? They massively overpaid a player who played in small portions of two games. How that that help the Irish national team? It obviously made no impact at all.

With regards to scrum coaches in the country - quel surprise, Joe Schmidt set up a really good system. But there's good scrum coaches in the country at the moment.

Graham Rowntree is the most renowned scrum-coach in the NH – English forwards coach for eight years, Lions forwards coach for two tours. He's been forwards coach at Munster for three years. Are you seriously trying to suggest that he's not a good scrummaging coach? That Munster props aren't getting good scrummaging training? Dan McFarland won the Bouclier with Stade Francais as a prop, and was a forwards coach at Connacht, Glasgow and Scotland before becoming Ulster head coach. The strongest part of Dan's coaching is his set-piece work, he's a complete technician [my brother was on IRFU coaching courses with him before]. Robin McBride coached Wales's forwards for 13 years and coached the Lions on their last tour.

So while scrum-coaching mightn't be quite as coherent as it was under Feek, what's the big change? The front rows while Feek was here were typically:
2013-14 to 2014-15
LH: Healy/McGrath
H: Best/Cronin
TH: Ross/Moore

2015-16 to 2016-17
LH: McGrath/Healy
H: Best/Cronin or Scannell
TH: Furlong/Bealham or Ryan

2017-18
LH: Healy/McGrath
H:Best/Cronin
TH: Furlong/Porter

Mostly five Leinster guys out of six, sometimes as few as four. Once Best retired and Cronin dropped off, first one and then both hooker spots were filled by Leinster players.

Birch is telling people populist bullsh*t that they want to hear – 'Leinster are the problem. Leinster are stockpiling all the best props. The kulaks are burning all the grain'. Ulster, Munster and Connacht all have IRFU funded academies, just like we do. They should be doing a hell of a lot more, and their coaches should be doing a hell of a lot more. The Leinster Academy has already done more than enough for them via Marty Moore, Jack McGrath, Jerry Loughman, Pete Dooley, Jack Aungier, Roman Salanoa. We're not a f*cking charity.

[hugonaut]

Knives are really out for Ryan on the 42. The lineout malfunction does seem to be on his shoulders but I'm not sure about the rest of it. If you're asking him to play a specific way, and this applies to others too, he's going to not look like a traditional lock. It's like wondering why Conan doesn't carry like Stander.

The standard of comment on that site is abysmal and has been from the get-go. I read it about once every three months [i.e. after the first game of the November tests, the first game of the Six Nations, the first game of the summer tour] and then remember why I don't read it.

Good articles, absolute bilge below the line.