Tour to NZ 2022

[paddyor]

'Behind them, it's an absolute car crash... There's a big issue'

Without naming name(s), Birch pins Ireland's scrum woes on the IRFU and its lack of planning...

https://www.the42.ie/the42-rugby-weekly ... 7-Jul2022/

p.s. The guy, who's now running the NZ scrum side of things, Greg Feek, was let go part-time by the IRFU. I wonder who made that decision?

I got into this with Birch on Twitter yesterday, along with some randomer crossfire. I normally don't bother arguing with people on the Internet, but I was a bit irritated after the match and tired of reading nonsense.

Leinster have five of Ireland's first-choice six front-rowers in a matchday squad: Sheehan [23], Kelleher [24], Porter [26], Furlong [29], Healy [34].

There are former Leinster players/academy players/age-grade players at prop in Ulster [Eric O'Sullivan, Marty Moore and until recently Jack McGrath], Connacht [Jordan Duggan, Jack Aungier, Sam Illo, Greg McGrath from the season just gone, now Pete Dooley] and Munster [Jerry Loughman and academy product Roman Salanoa]. That is just at prop.

How many props do you want us to produce? Every prop in Ireland? Leinster have a 'cartel' that is stockpiling props ... but there are a minimum of seven Leinster-born props, six of them in their 20s, playing for the other provinces. What Birch has just said is obviously nonsense. From my perspective he doesn't have the nerve to tell an uncomfortable truth.

The issue with Ireland's front row depth is nothing to do with Leinster and everything to do with Munster, Ulster and Connacht. There has been huge investment in their academies and development programmes from the IRFU and, in terms of front rowers, practically no return.

There's a whiff of salad train about the cartel comments on the podcast. But I don't think he meant Leinster was a cartel, he seemed to be referring to to the no competion on wages rules. But even that doesn't make much sense when you look at Illo, Salanoa, Aungier, EOS, and Loughman. Those are all guys who left before getting senior contracts IIRC. Get the impression he's agent adjacent and wants more business.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Good man Hugo, thought that was an odd comment alright about us stockpiling props.

Two other observations just from reading that article.

1) If that scrum programme was so sh!t hot then shouldn’t it be producing players now? If it is then we don’t have to worry about the future, if it isn’t then it wasn’t much use.

2) How does us stockpiling props tally with all his chat about us losing players like Berti Newman? Do we bring too many players on board? Or not enough?

[paddyor]

Knives are really out for Ryan on the 42. The lineout malfunction does seem to be on his shoulders but I'm not sure about the rest of it. If you're asking him to play a specific way, and this applies to others too, he's going to not look like a traditional lock. It's like wondering why Conan doesn't carry like Stander.

The standard of comment on that site is abysmal and has been from the get-go. I read it about once every three months [i.e. after the first game of the November tests, the first game of the Six Nations, the first game of the summer tour] and then remember why I don't read it.

Good articles, absolute bilge below the line.

I meant the podcast.

It was weird, he went on about being worried we'd keep starting him if he's not in form(fair shout on the lineout) but who is going to replace him with given Henderson is injured?

[paddyor]

Good man Hugo, thought that was an odd comment alright about us stockpiling props.

Two other observations just from reading that article.

1) If that scrum programme was so sh!t hot then shouldn’t it be producing players now? If it is then we don’t have to worry about the future, if it isn’t then it wasn’t much use.

2) How does us stockpiling props tally with all his chat about us losing players like Berti Newman? Do we bring too many players on board? Or not enough?

It's a useful way to talk around the fact that Fogarty(his old team mate) probably isn't as good as Feek

What props are we stockpiling. There's 4 in the academy and can't find anything on sub academy but alot of those guys would be still in school so wtf is he on about.

[Oldschoolsocks]

Good man Hugo, thought that was an odd comment alright about us stockpiling props.

Two other observations just from reading that article.

1) If that scrum programme was so sh!t hot then shouldn’t it be producing players now? If it is then we don’t have to worry about the future, if it isn’t then it wasn’t much use.

2) How does us stockpiling props tally with all his chat about us losing players like Berti Newman? Do we bring too many players on board? Or not enough?

It's a useful way to talk around the fact that Fogarty(his old team mate) probably isn't as good as Feek

What props are we stockpiling. There's 4 in the academy and can't find anything on sub academy but alot of those guys would be still in school so wtf is he on about.

Well we have to spend the €17.5MM in salaries he quotes us at.

Loved him as a player, comes across as total bluffer when he’s on the casts

[Xanthippe]

Jaco Peyper is probably my least favourite ref, and is always unbelievably harsh on Ireland. Id love to know the stats of how many games weve won and lost with him as the ref, my guess is its close to 0

Played 5; Won 2 Lost 3

24/11/2012 IRE 46 - 24 ARG Pens: 1 - 4 Cards: 0 - 0

13/02/2016 FRA 10 - 9 IRE Pens: 8 - 13 Cards: 0 - 0

19/11/2016 IRE 9 - 21 NZL Pens: 4 - 14 Cards: 0 - 2 (YC)

23/02/2020 ENG 24 - 12 IRE Pens: 13 - 7 Cards: 0 - 0

05/02/2022 IRE 29 - 7 WAL Pens: 6 - 14 Cards: 0 - 1 (YC)

[paddyor]

Birch is telling people populist bullsh*t that they want to hear – 'Leinster are the problem. Leinster are stockpiling all the best props The kulaks are burning all the grain'. Ulster, Munster and Connacht all have IRFU funded academies, just like we do. They should be doing a hell of a lot more, and their coaches should be doing a hell of a lot more. The Leinster Academy has already done more than enough for them via Marty Moore, Jack McGrath, Jerry Loughman, Pete Dooley, Jack Aungier, Roman Salanoa. We're not a f*cking charity.

So, remember for the pod this week, stay hostile! Maybe expand upon the bolded

[paddyor]

Jaco Peyper is probably my least favourite ref, and is always unbelievably harsh on Ireland. Id love to know the stats of how many games weve won and lost with him as the ref, my guess is its close to 0

Played 5; Won 2 Lost 3

24/11/2012 IRE 46 - 24 ARG Pens: 1 - 4 Cards: 0 - 0

13/02/2016 FRA 10 - 9 IRE Pens: 8 - 13 Cards: 0 - 0

24/11/2012 IRE 9 - 21 NZL Pens: 4 - 14 Cards: 0 - 2 (YC)

24/11/2012 ENG 24 - 12 IRE Pens: 13 - 7 Cards: 0 - 0

24/11/2012 IRE 29 - 7 WAL Pens: 6 - 14 Cards: 0 - 1 (YC)

4 games on the same day was probably too much, but at least we won 2

[paddyor]

Good man Hugo, thought that was an odd comment alright about us stockpiling props.

Two other observations just from reading that article.

1) If that scrum programme was so sh!t hot then shouldn’t it be producing players now? If it is then we don’t have to worry about the future, if it isn’t then it wasn’t much use.

2) How does us stockpiling props tally with all his chat about us losing players like Berti Newman? Do we bring too many players on board? Or not enough?

It's a useful way to talk around the fact that Fogarty(his old team mate) probably isn't as good as Feek

What props are we stockpiling. There's 4 in the academy and can't find anything on sub academy but alot of those guys would be still in school so wtf is he on about.

Well we have to spend the €17.5MM in salaries he quotes us at.

Loved him as a player, comes across as total bluffer when he’s on the casts

He's alright IMO but can be a bit sensationalist. His analysis gets a lot of traction across other podcasts and I'd say that's what he's aiming for here but I think he's screwed the pooch.

On reflection, if he's saying Ryan isn't a tighthead lock, it may well be that he's hearing it from Fogarty

[paddyor]

There's a whiff of salad train about the cartel comments on the podcast. But I don't think he meant Leinster was a cartel, he seemed to be referring to to the no competion on wages rules. But even that doesn't make much sense when you look at Illo, Salanoa, Aungier, EOS, and Loughman. Those are all guys who left before getting senior contracts IIRC. Get the impression he's agent adjacent and wants more business.

Only got to the last 10 minutes of the podcast and it's worse than that. Wouldn't surprise me if he was in league with the South African who wanted to set up an Academy here. Word for word as best I can from 5:10 minutes to the end of the podcast

Gavan Casey:....... Is it time to open the borders. Is there any conceivable way it could work for,..Irish players to be allowed to join premiership clubs, go to prod2, go to the top14 and if they impress for a couple of years actually be allowed to be called up to an Ireland squad. And even if you said maybe a limit or quota, not a quota yeah the opposite a limit like a cap. You can have say 6 players playing abroad called up into an Irish squad just to open the pipeline a little bit more and offer more avenues for guys to go and develop.
Jackman:Yeah I think so but you would need someone who's gonna coordinate that. You would need someone who had the contacts in in in em in clubs em aaaand was able to I suppose do deals with clubs where there was a commitment for guys to play. NOW i'm not against the ideas of souping up the AIL. I think that would be BRILLIANT, I think that would be BRILLIANT. If we get that up to another level, where it's a real testing ground for those special young talent em but also with some abi..., like even Wales, wales when I was coaching the dragons, Wales who I would critices in a lot of ways and I blah blah blah

Wales make a central plan for players is the part I dropped and force it down. Anyway who could Bernard be talking about? This is Frankie Sheehan give MOTM awards level of self promotion ffs.

He goes onto to waffle about how we need to be driving for more depth(he used f%~king Wales as something we should try to emulate which might be true in other provinces) and we shouldn't just accept that when we start to down the depth chart they're not as good as Furlong. MF pointed out that NZ had problems at lock vs Ireland in CHicago. I'm just supposed to forget that?

[Xanthippe]

4 games on the same day was probably too much, but at least we won 2

Fixed now

[the spoofer]

I’m led to believe that the relationship between Jackman and Leinster is fraught at best. He claimed that he was left to swing in the wind by the province following his concussion issues and Leinster (Mick Dawson) was quite surprised by this as they felt that they had done everything possible to support him.

His comments on this topic are bullshit, the player produced per € ratio for the academies would be embarrassing for the other provinces, especially Munster and Connacht.

[ronk]

'Behind them, it's an absolute car crash... There's a big issue'

Without naming name(s), Birch pins Ireland's scrum woes on the IRFU and its lack of planning...

https://www.the42.ie/the42-rugby-weekly ... 7-Jul2022/

p.s. The guy, who's now running the NZ scrum side of things, Greg Feek, was let go part-time by the IRFU. I wonder who made that decision?

[Ciaran Parker, a member of The42, got in touch to ask why Irish rugby hasn’t produced more top-level props through its academies,]

Um, that Ciaran Parker?

[riocard911]

Knives are really out for Ryan on the 42. The lineout malfunction does seem to be on his shoulders but I'm not sure about the rest of it. If you're asking him to play a specific way, and this applies to others too, he's going to not look like a traditional lock. It's like wondering why Conan doesn't carry like Stander.

The standard of comment on that site is abysmal and has been from the get-go. I read it about once every three months [i.e. after the first game of the November tests, the first game of the Six Nations, the first game of the summer tour] and then remember why I don't read it.

Good articles, absolute bilge below the line.

Agree totally re comments on the42, Hugonaut. The only reason, I posted the article was to highlight the Feek issue. Whether he's the gold standard in terms of scrum coaching or not, I'm not so sure letting him double-job in Japan or reducing his position to a part-time one - which is how the circumstances pre his return to NZ are described - was a great idea. The rest about Leinster stockpiling talent you have patently disproved to be nonsense, fair play to you.

[OTT]

I got into this with Birch on Twitter yesterday, along with some randomer crossfire. I normally don't bother arguing with people on the Internet, but I was a bit irritated after the match and tired of reading nonsense.

Leinster have five of Ireland's first-choice six front-rowers in a matchday squad: Sheehan [23], Kelleher [24], Porter [26], Furlong [29], Healy [34].

There are former Leinster players/academy players/age-grade players at prop in Ulster [Eric O'Sullivan, Marty Moore and until recently Jack McGrath], Connacht [Jordan Duggan, Jack Aungier, Sam Illo, Greg McGrath from the season just gone, now Pete Dooley] and Munster [Jerry Loughman and academy product Roman Salanoa]. That is just at prop.

How many props do you want us to produce? Every prop in Ireland? Leinster have a 'cartel' that is stockpiling props ... but there are a minimum of seven Leinster-born props, six of them in their 20s, playing for the other provinces. What Birch has just said is obviously nonsense. From my perspective he doesn't have the nerve to tell an uncomfortable truth.

The issue with Ireland's front row depth is nothing to do with Leinster and everything to do with Munster, Ulster and Connacht. There has been huge investment in their academies and development programmes from the IRFU and, in terms of front rowers, practically no return.

Fair play to you, I find Birch a dreadful spoofer I have to say. He seems like a decent fella and I know others love him but sometimes you wonder how he played rugby because he doesn’t seem to have a rashers at times. It’s like he hears a myopic opinion from some eejit and takes it as his own at times.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

It’s like he hears a myopic opinion from some eejit and takes it as his own at times.

I had the exact same thought with this stuff. I suspect he was doing one of those coaching seminars or something and a fella said "I'd love to get my hands on some Leinster props from a younger age" and in Jackman's head that turned into the policy he outlined with no thought to the wider context.

[Flash Gordon]

'Behind them, it's an absolute car crash... There's a big issue'

Without naming name(s), Birch pins Ireland's scrum woes on the IRFU and its lack of planning...

https://www.the42.ie/the42-rugby-weekly ... 7-Jul2022/

p.s. The guy, who's now running the NZ scrum side of things, Greg Feek, was let go part-time by the IRFU. I wonder who made that decision?

I got into this with Birch on Twitter yesterday, along with some randomer crossfire. I normally don't bother arguing with people on the Internet, but I was a bit irritated after the match and tired of reading nonsense.

Leinster have five of Ireland's first-choice six front-rowers in a matchday squad: Sheehan [23], Kelleher [24], Porter [26], Furlong [29], Healy [34].

There are former Leinster players/academy players/age-grade players at prop in Ulster [Eric O'Sullivan, Marty Moore and until recently Jack McGrath], Connacht [Jordan Duggan, Jack Aungier, Sam Illo, Greg McGrath from the season just gone, now Pete Dooley] and Munster [Jerry Loughman and academy product Roman Salanoa]. That is just at prop.

How many props do you want us to produce? Every prop in Ireland? Leinster have a 'cartel' that is stockpiling props ... but there are a minimum of seven Leinster-born props, six of them in their 20s, playing for the other provinces. What Birch has just said is obviously nonsense. From my perspective he doesn't have the nerve to tell an uncomfortable truth.

The issue with Ireland's front row depth is nothing to do with Leinster and everything to do with Munster, Ulster and Connacht. There has been huge investment in their academies and development programmes from the IRFU and, in terms of front rowers, practically no return.

Completely right, I keep sayng this. Every time there's a selection for Ireland it's dominated by players from Leinster. Every time this happens you see fans of other provinces complaining about D4/Dublin bias etc whereas the reality is that they aren't producing the players through their academies to challenge Leinster players. I'd love Ireland to be a mix of provinces and for players from other provinces to be pushing Leinster's players to new levels through competition but they aren't.

Personally I think that the other provinces should have an accountability for the production of players given the funding they get from the IRFU and if they aren't delivering they need to compelled to take measures that will deliver. We are too late now for 2023 unfortunately and our depth is not where it needs to be but that really isn't Leinster's fault.

[ronk]

Birch is telling people populist bullsh*t that they want to hear – 'Leinster are the problem.

But they really, really want to hear it.

If Leinster are on the hook then everyone else is off it. And the solution is extremely palatable: subsidised talented Irish players who'll stay forever if they do well without any risk, any investment in development and the pain of managing integration into the squad

Leinster's record before the redistribution policy took effect was played 4 finals, won 4. Since it is played 2, lost 2. But this doesn't come up. The track record of players poached is terrible, really awful.

So this policy is still seen as plausible and reasonable despite the fact that it has damaged those players careers, it has damaged the careers of the players being replaced, it has held back Leinster in Europe which has held back the game in Ireland, international playing pool is smaller without those players, and the receiving provinces haven't really had any successes let alone enough to offset. Even by the standards of Welsh own-goal mismanagement this was a disaster, but it's the elephant in the room.

[the spoofer]

I count it that Leinster have 1 front row player from another province (McKee)

That says it all.

[munster#1]

I really don’t think the Irish scrum issues lay solely with our props.
While neither Furlong or Porter would be up there as having the ability to dismantle scrums, neither, imo are weak scrummagers.

Imo the issue is with Ireland’s insistence that a hooker must be like an open side in the loose at all costs.
Meaning that we select hookers who are underpowered and in Sheehan’s case, underdeveloped at scrum time.

In addition to this, we have failed to provide the underpowered hooker with assistance behind him by continuously selecting mobile second rows rather than looking at developing real TH lock options.

When you have a front 5 combination like we have, then the scrum is something that will suffer.

I would much rather we sacrificed having a super mobile hooker if it meant we had a powerful scrummager.
I would also feel the same at TH lock, as imo right now, Ryan is being asked to do a job that he is not able to do, and it is nullifying what he is very good at doing.