Tour to NZ 2022

[Cheeses of Nazareth]

Broken record time.
What in the name of all that's unholy were we doing bringing HB and Henderson on this tour with injury issues.
We're just over a year out from the next RWC, We're on the toughest tour known to rugby and We're already at the 2 hail Mary stage (before a ball was even kicked) and a third hail Mary if you(or we as per another poster) consider that we were travelling light with props.
At this stage, if not you, then I think we have to cut our losses with HB for the coming RWC and move one of the other pretenders up the queue, Crowley being my personal preference.
It's Broken so Fix it.

Were they known to be carrying injuries before leaving?

[Keith]

Does anyone remember how bad the performances and the games in general used be, when Ireland A/wolfhounds used to play the Saxons before the 6 nations? I suppose a performance this poor shouldn't be THAT big of a surprise, although it still obviously shouldn't be accepted.

[wixfjord]

Broken record time.
What in the name of all that's unholy were we doing bringing HB and Henderson on this tour with injury issues.
We're just over a year out from the next RWC, We're on the toughest tour known to rugby and We're already at the 2 hail Mary stage (before a ball was even kicked) and a third hail Mary if you(or we as per another poster) consider that we were travelling light with props.
At this stage, if not you, then I think we have to cut our losses with HB for the coming RWC and move one of the other pretenders up the queue, Crowley being my personal preference.
It's Broken so Fix it.

Were they known to be carrying injuries before leaving?

No, from what's been said both were injured in training.

[Ruckedtobits]

Really disastrous performance in the second quarter, and to be honest, not a good performance in any quarter. A dreadful start to the tour.

Anybody who says that an Irish player out there put forward an argument for forcing their way into a test side on the basis of that performance has an agenda. Literally none of them did. Some were better/worse than others, but there wasn't a single player out there who produced a high quality international performance. Not one – very disappointing.

Obviously it was a very inexperienced team, and there was an equally obvious lack of effective leadership. When you take into account the repeated penalty advantages, we gave away nine penalties and a free kick in the first 40 minutes. No scrum penalties, no lineout penalties, no tackling penalties i.e. high/late/aerial - all of them were either offside in backline defence [four] or at the breakdown [five]. In one half. One of each was a little harsh – the Prendergast 'double dip' at the breakdown [around 12:30] and a offside in the backline against Coombes/Timoney [around 22:20]. The rest you couldn't argue with.

+1, that's an assessment I would agree with having now seen the game.

There was a large slice of over-eagerness displayed by many of our forwards and the defensive structure / follow-up on our kicks, particularly down our left flank, was appalling.

I was very disappointed with the "collision-effectiveness" of Loughman, O'Toole and Treadwell in particular and to a lesser extent by Earls inability to get in position to make any tackles. The relative shape and speed of our defensive line lasted for about 15 minutes and then disintegrated completely, as well as conceding penalties at will. The Maori backline moved the ball very well left to right from breakdowns after kicks to them but our defensive numbering was very poor.

We had minimal possession in the second quarter and squandered most of it. In the third quarter we had more possession but squandered it by ineffective kicking and poor handling and bad options from half backs.

Overall, the Maori looked a better prepared 'scratch' team and individually carried and tackled far more effectively. New Zealand Super Rugby is clearly a better preparation for International contests than URC or European Competition. The overall pace of the game, when the ball was in play, was significantly higher than our normal fare and the pace of re-alignment of the Maori team was light years ahead of our defensive re-positioning.

All of this is good experience for our players and our performances in 3rd & 4th quarters was a huge improvement on the first half. However, in terms of our attacking ability, we should lose the idea of 5m tapped penalties, without variations. They look embarrassingly inept and are easy to defend. Go to any reasonable Schools's Cup Match and you will see a variety of different tactical plays used in these positions.

Overall, not too different than I expected, possibly only that the gap between our senior XV and anything else is bigger than my worst fears.

FOGRA:
How in the name of 'the wee donkey' did any "independent doctor" allow Loughman to pass a HIA, given the condition in which he left the pitch after 90 secs. Shame on that Official, given the latest World Rugby guidelines in this regard.

[Oldschool]

Broken record time.
What in the name of all that's unholy were we doing bringing HB and Henderson on this tour with injury issues.
We're just over a year out from the next RWC, We're on the toughest tour known to rugby and We're already at the 2 hail Mary stage (before a ball was even kicked) and a third hail Mary if you(or we as per another poster) consider that we were travelling light with props.
At this stage, if not you, then I think we have to cut our losses with HB for the coming RWC and move one of the other pretenders up the queue, Crowley being my personal preference.
It's Broken so Fix it.

Were they known to be carrying injuries before leaving?

No, from what's been said both were injured in training.

It's fair to say that nobody and I mean nobody was surprised to hear HB was injured.
Henderson, it turns out, following a scan on a known issue, has a more deep seated problem.
And "from what's been said" is about as credible as it gets. Players medical issues are personal and private and that's as it should be.
But trends are public knowledge because a trend is a trend because of the very fact that it keeps repeating itself.

[Oldschool]

Really disastrous performance in the second quarter, and to be honest, not a good performance in any quarter. A dreadful start to the tour.

Anybody who says that an Irish player out there put forward an argument for forcing their way into a test side on the basis of that performance has an agenda. Literally none of them did. Some were better/worse than others, but there wasn't a single player out there who produced a high quality international performance. Not one – very disappointing.

Obviously it was a very inexperienced team, and there was an equally obvious lack of effective leadership. When you take into account the repeated penalty advantages, we gave away nine penalties and a free kick in the first 40 minutes. No scrum penalties, no lineout penalties, no tackling penalties i.e. high/late/aerial - all of them were either offside in backline defence [four] or at the breakdown [five]. In one half. One of each was a little harsh – the Prendergast 'double dip' at the breakdown [around 12:30] and a offside in the backline against Coombes/Timoney [around 22:20]. The rest you couldn't argue with.

+1, that's an assessment I would agree with having now seen the game.

There was a large slice of over-eagerness displayed by many of our forwards and the defensive structure / follow-up on our kicks, particularly down our left flank, was appalling.

I was very disappointed with the "collision-effectiveness" of Loughman, O'Toole and Treadwell in particular and to a lesser extent by Earls inability to get in position to make any tackles. The relative shape and speed of our defensive line lasted for about 15 minutes and then disintegrated completely, as well as conceding penalties at will. The Maori backline moved the ball very well left to right from breakdowns after kicks to them but our defensive numbering was very poor.

We had minimal possession in the second quarter and squandered most of it. In the third quarter we had more possession but squandered it by ineffective kicking and poor handling and bad options from half backs.

Overall, the Maori looked a better prepared 'scratch' team and individually carried and tackled far more effectively. New Zealand Super Rugby is clearly a better preparation for International contests than URC or European Competition. The overall pace of the game, when the ball was in play, was significantly higher than our normal fare and the pace of re-alignment of the Maori team was light years ahead of our defensive re-positioning.

All of this is good experience for our players and our performances in 3rd & 4th quarters was a huge improvement on the first half. However, in terms of our attacking ability, we should lose the idea of 5m tapped penalties, without variations. They look embarrassingly inept and are easy to defend. Go to any reasonable Schools's Cup Match and you will see a variety of different tactical plays used in these positions.

Overall, not too different than I expected, possibly only that the gap between our senior XV and anything else is bigger than my worst fears.

FOGRA:
How in the name of 'the wee donkey' did any "independent doctor" allow Loughman to pass a HIA, given the condition in which he left the pitch after 90 secs. Shame on that Official, given the latest World Rugby guidelines in this regard.

Some good points there but looking for a straw or two, it's fair to say that our fitness wasn't an issue which is encouraging for the test games.
Composure is a word I would like our coaches and players to consider in depth and detail.
Penalties is an obvious measure of composure but it's not the only won.

[wixfjord]

Were they known to be carrying injuries before leaving?

No, from what's been said both were injured in training.

It's fair to say that nobody and I mean nobody was surprised to hear HB was injured.
Henderson, it turns out, following a scan on a known issue, has a more deep seated problem.
And "from what's been said" is about as credible as it gets. Players medical issues are personal and private and that's as it should be.
But trends are public knowledge because a trend is a trend because of the very fact that it keeps repeating itself.

Do you reckon Hendo went to a summer tour in NZ with a significant knee injury and his leg in a brace?

Harry got a knock in training also.

In any case Hendo wouldn't have been playing this morning and Byrne would have made no difference. Frawley was fine, the key issue was the pack getting beaten up.

[Oldschoolsocks]

Well we’re not peaking 12 months or so out from a World Cup, so there’s that…

[Oldschool]

No, from what's been said both were injured in training.

It's fair to say that nobody and I mean nobody was surprised to hear HB was injured.
Henderson, it turns out, following a scan on a known issue, has a more deep seated problem.
And "from what's been said" is about as credible as it gets. Players medical issues are personal and private and that's as it should be.
But trends are public knowledge because a trend is a trend because of the very fact that it keeps repeating itself.

Do you reckon Hendo went to a summer tour in NZ with a significant knee injury and his leg in a brace?

Harry got a knock in training also.

In any case Hendo wouldn't have been playing this morning and Byrne would have made no difference. Frawley was fine, the key issue was the pack getting beaten up.

When you eliminate all other possibilities then whatever you're left with is......
That's a trend, right there.

[hugonaut]

Does anyone remember how bad the performances and the games in general used be, when Ireland A/wolfhounds used to play the Saxons before the 6 nations? I suppose a performance this poor shouldn't be THAT big of a surprise, although it still obviously shouldn't be accepted.

Yeah, some of them were pretty ropey. You're not wrong.

This was a team full of lads who have literally never played together. Look at the units below: there's only one unit [the back three] where lads were from the same province, and they have played f*ck all rugby together – Jimmy O'Brien got his nose in the door when Larmour got injured this season.

Front Row: Munster [26 y.o./0 caps] | Connacht [31 y.o./6 caps] | Ulster [23 y.o./2 caps]
Second Row: Leinster [21 y.o./0 caps] | Ulster [26 y.o./5 caps]
Backrow: Connacht [22 y.o./0 caps] | Munster [24 y.o./2 caps] | Ulster [26 y.o./2 caps]
Halfbacks: Munster [23 y.o./5 caps] | Leinster [24 y.o./0 caps]
Centres: Connacht [32 y.o./37 caps] | Ulster [23 y.o./3 caps]
Back Three: Munster [34 y.o./96 caps] | Leinster [25 y.o./0 caps] | Leinster [25 y.o./30 caps]

Even in the bigger sub-divisions, say front five [1-5], back five [4-8], midfield [10,12,13], three-quarters [11,12,13,14] there are very few people who have played together – O'Toole and Treadwell in the front five, often times as Ulster subs this season; Treadwell and Timoney in the back five.

In terms of basic familiarity, you can tell from the ages of the players that unit-partners hadn't played together before for the Irish U20s – even guys who are close in age – like Casey [b.1999] and Frawley [b.1997], or O'Brien [b/1996] and Larmour [b.1996] – weren't actually in the same agegrade.

[ronk]

We were too narrow. Mistakes and discipline gave them a platform. It took them a quarter to figure out that they could go around us at will.

We tightened up at halftime and went into contain mode. It kept the score down but didn't really threaten them.

The defence was too narrow because they looked to have done a lot of work on double tackles. We did a lot of them. Technique was reasonable but many of them were surprisingly passive.

I think the pace of the game was an issue. We got used to French and SA teams slowing down the game. Broadcast was missing lineouts due to replays.

[wixfjord]

It's fair to say that nobody and I mean nobody was surprised to hear HB was injured.
Henderson, it turns out, following a scan on a known issue, has a more deep seated problem.
And "from what's been said" is about as credible as it gets. Players medical issues are personal and private and that's as it should be.
But trends are public knowledge because a trend is a trend because of the very fact that it keeps repeating itself.

Do you reckon Hendo went to a summer tour in NZ with a significant knee injury and his leg in a brace?

Harry got a knock in training also.

In any case Hendo wouldn't have been playing this morning and Byrne would have made no difference. Frawley was fine, the key issue was the pack getting beaten up.

When you eliminate all other possibilities then whatever you're left with is......
That's a trend, right there.

You're left with him getting injured in training. Which he did.

Harry has been quite injury prone, and has picked up a knock on tour.

Neither 'went on this tour with injury issues'.

We did

[Oldschool]

Do you reckon Hendo went to a summer tour in NZ with a significant knee injury and his leg in a brace?

Harry got a knock in training also.

In any case Hendo wouldn't have been playing this morning and Byrne would have made no difference. Frawley was fine, the key issue was the pack getting beaten up.

When you eliminate all other possibilities then whatever you're left with is......
That's a trend, right there.

You're left with him getting injured in training. Which he did.

Harry has been quite injury prone, and has picked up a knock on tour.

Neither 'went on this tour with injury issues'.

We did

You're left with him aggravating an injury
History would suggest you are correct in saying he's injury prone and I'm saying based on that history someone else needs to be consider and PDQ.

[wixfjord]

When you eliminate all other possibilities then whatever you're left with is......
That's a trend, right there.

You're left with him getting injured in training. Which he did.

Harry has been quite injury prone, and has picked up a knock on tour.

Neither 'went on this tour with injury issues'.

We did

You're left with him aggravating an injury
History would suggest you are correct in saying he's injury prone and I'm saying based on that history someone else needs to be consider and PDQ.

Or, you know, Hendo just picked up an injury. Like loads of players do every week in training.

Harry was chosen as third OH because Faz clearly doesn't rate others and sees him as the highest potential of the young 10s. He picked up an unfortunate knock before the game which meant Frawley got a shot.

It's not really a big deal and hopefully he'll be back for the second Maori game.

[Oldschool]

You're left with him getting injured in training. Which he did.

Harry has been quite injury prone, and has picked up a knock on tour.

Neither 'went on this tour with injury issues'.

We did

You're left with him aggravating an injury
History would suggest you are correct in saying he's injury prone and I'm saying based on that history someone else needs to be consider and PDQ.

Or, you know, Hendo just picked up an injury. Like loads of players do every week in training.

Harry was chosen as third OH because Faz clearly doesn't rate others and sees him as the highest potential of the young 10s. He picked up an unfortunate knock before the game which meant Frawley got a shot.

It's not really a big deal and hopefully he'll be back for the second Maori game.

If by "you" you meant me then no I don't know, I'm simply expressing an opinion based on the meagre information available.

Faz may well rate Harry as the next best OH.
That doesn't mean he doesn't rate the others, it means he gives them a lower rating which is lot different to not rating them.
However my point related to Harry's fitness and not his ability. Because of his fitness issues I'm suggesting that Faz should start looking at his next rated player.

[Logorrhea]

Because of his fitness issues I'm suggesting that Faz should start looking at his next rated player.

The next rated player has spent the better part of two years injured.

[Cheeses of Nazareth]

Who are the other options at 10 not on tour? Ross Byrne who is shy of the level needed? Healy who looks like Ross Byrne mk2? Burns who hasn’t been good enough when given chances? Carty who is in the same boat? Slim pickings at 10. Harry Byrne is a roll of the dice for Farrell in the absence of any other standout candidates.

[Oldschool]

Because of his fitness issues I'm suggesting that Faz should start looking at his next rated player.

The next rated player has spent the better part of two years injured.

Sexton, Carbery and HB is the current pecking order who's 4th (injured for 2 years), 5th 6th etc.
5th ranked should be moved to 3rd no matter his capacity because at least he's available to play.
That's just the reality of the situation.

[Oldschool]

Who are the other options at 10 not on tour? Ross Byrne who is shy of the level needed? Healy who looks like Ross Byrne mk2? Burns who hasn’t been good enough when given chances? Carty who is in the same boat? Slim pickings at 10. Harry Byrne is a roll of the dice for Farrell in the absence of any other standout candidates.

If HB doesn't play on this tour then it wasn't worth bringing him and it would make the point I'm trying to make.
At some point the bullet has to be bitten and we're too near a RWC to have our 3 first choice OHs all having major ??? hanging over them.
Not one but three. Faz is already rolling the dice on Sexton and Carbery

[backrower8]

... it's fair to say that our fitness wasn't an issue which is encouraging for the test games.

?????????????!!!!!! We were totally pedestrian and catching our breath all day.

Overall it was like watching a 1990s Irish side in NZ all over again....nightmares!