Tour to NZ 2022

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Oldschoolsocks
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Re: Tour to NZ 2022

Post by Oldschoolsocks »

wixfjord wrote: August 2nd, 2022, 3:46 pm
leinsterforever wrote: August 2nd, 2022, 2:36 pm My opinion would be that Leinster are lacking a few elements Ireland have when it comes to being clinical against top teams. What's the stat? - 1 try scored and 5 conceded in the three Heineken Cup Finals under this coaching ticket.

One thing Ireland have on the defensive side of things that Leinster don't is an ability to win turnovers on the deck. That's a very limited part of Leinster's game.

Easterby is, I think, just implementing Farrell's defensive system. Farrell has more on his plate now that he's head coach, so he's delegating responsibility for the defence to someone else.
Yep that's a great point.

Not sure whether we (as in Leinster) purposefully choose not to go for them (either tactically or to reduce contact injuries), or whether we don't have the players for it, but it's been a missing part of our game since the days of Leavy/SOB.

Ireland has POM & Beirne, but we don't have that threat in blue at all.

It's an area I'd hope Leo/Stu might be looking at in the off season.

Does anyone have a list of the players who make most turnovers for us? Would imagine it's split between guys like Porter, Doris, Kelleher/Sheehan and VDF, but we don't have a really clear 'poacher'.
Open to correction here, but I feel part of the reason we don’t get many turnovers is that we tend to have a majority of possession when we play and maybe there’s a lot less focus on it for that reason?
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Re: Tour to NZ 2022

Post by Flash Gordon »

wixfjord wrote: August 2nd, 2022, 3:46 pm
leinsterforever wrote: August 2nd, 2022, 2:36 pm My opinion would be that Leinster are lacking a few elements Ireland have when it comes to being clinical against top teams. What's the stat? - 1 try scored and 5 conceded in the three Heineken Cup Finals under this coaching ticket.

One thing Ireland have on the defensive side of things that Leinster don't is an ability to win turnovers on the deck. That's a very limited part of Leinster's game.

Easterby is, I think, just implementing Farrell's defensive system. Farrell has more on his plate now that he's head coach, so he's delegating responsibility for the defence to someone else.
Yep that's a great point.

Not sure whether we (as in Leinster) purposefully choose not to go for them (either tactically or to reduce contact injuries), or whether we don't have the players for it, but it's been a missing part of our game since the days of Leavy/SOB.

Ireland has POM & Beirne, but we don't have that threat in blue at all.

It's an area I'd hope Leo/Stu might be looking at in the off season.

Does anyone have a list of the players who make most turnovers for us? Would imagine it's split between guys like Porter, Doris, Kelleher/Sheehan and VDF, but we don't have a really clear 'poacher'.

We have 4 lads on 6 turnovers last year (73rd in the league!) - Tommy O'Brien, Josh, James Tracy and Ciaran Frawley. Bet you wouldn't have put money on that list! POM doesn't feature in the top 100 by the way.
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Re: Tour to NZ 2022

Post by Flash Gordon »

Oldschoolsocks wrote: August 2nd, 2022, 3:58 pm
wixfjord wrote: August 2nd, 2022, 3:46 pm
leinsterforever wrote: August 2nd, 2022, 2:36 pm My opinion would be that Leinster are lacking a few elements Ireland have when it comes to being clinical against top teams. What's the stat? - 1 try scored and 5 conceded in the three Heineken Cup Finals under this coaching ticket.

One thing Ireland have on the defensive side of things that Leinster don't is an ability to win turnovers on the deck. That's a very limited part of Leinster's game.

Easterby is, I think, just implementing Farrell's defensive system. Farrell has more on his plate now that he's head coach, so he's delegating responsibility for the defence to someone else.
Yep that's a great point.

Not sure whether we (as in Leinster) purposefully choose not to go for them (either tactically or to reduce contact injuries), or whether we don't have the players for it, but it's been a missing part of our game since the days of Leavy/SOB.

Ireland has POM & Beirne, but we don't have that threat in blue at all.

It's an area I'd hope Leo/Stu might be looking at in the off season.

Does anyone have a list of the players who make most turnovers for us? Would imagine it's split between guys like Porter, Doris, Kelleher/Sheehan and VDF, but we don't have a really clear 'poacher'.
Open to correction here, but I feel part of the reason we don’t get many turnovers is that we tend to have a majority of possession when we play and maybe there’s a lot less focus on it for that reason?
You'd think but we were number 2 in the league on tackles made. We're happy to play without the ball when needed.
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Re: Tour to NZ 2022

Post by wixfjord »

Flash Gordon wrote: August 2nd, 2022, 4:33 pm
wixfjord wrote: August 2nd, 2022, 3:46 pm
leinsterforever wrote: August 2nd, 2022, 2:36 pm My opinion would be that Leinster are lacking a few elements Ireland have when it comes to being clinical against top teams. What's the stat? - 1 try scored and 5 conceded in the three Heineken Cup Finals under this coaching ticket.

One thing Ireland have on the defensive side of things that Leinster don't is an ability to win turnovers on the deck. That's a very limited part of Leinster's game.

Easterby is, I think, just implementing Farrell's defensive system. Farrell has more on his plate now that he's head coach, so he's delegating responsibility for the defence to someone else.
Yep that's a great point.

Not sure whether we (as in Leinster) purposefully choose not to go for them (either tactically or to reduce contact injuries), or whether we don't have the players for it, but it's been a missing part of our game since the days of Leavy/SOB.

Ireland has POM & Beirne, but we don't have that threat in blue at all.

It's an area I'd hope Leo/Stu might be looking at in the off season.

Does anyone have a list of the players who make most turnovers for us? Would imagine it's split between guys like Porter, Doris, Kelleher/Sheehan and VDF, but we don't have a really clear 'poacher'.

We have 4 lads on 6 turnovers last year (73rd in the league!) - Tommy O'Brien, Josh, James Tracy and Ciaran Frawley. Bet you wouldn't have put money on that list! POM doesn't feature in the top 100 by the way.
URC does distort things greatly, but that's a good example of what I mean. We've Josh (our openside) and then two outside backs and a hooker.

It's not exactly 'major threat on the ground' type of territory!

It's clearly on purpose, but I'd love to know if it's tactical (don't burn men unnecessarily and back our defence) or injury focused (we don't want our guys putting themselves in jackal positions).

I'd love to see the likes of Baird, Kelleher, Doris become real threats on the ground. Could add another dimension to our game.
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Re: Tour to NZ 2022

Post by Xanthippe »

Flash Gordon wrote: August 2nd, 2022, 4:33 pm
wixfjord wrote: August 2nd, 2022, 3:46 pm Does anyone have a list of the players who make most turnovers for us? Would imagine it's split between guys like Porter, Doris, Kelleher/Sheehan and VDF, but we don't have a really clear 'poacher'.
We have 4 lads on 6 turnovers last year (73rd in the league!) - Tommy O'Brien, Josh, James Tracy and Ciaran Frawley. Bet you wouldn't have put money on that list! POM doesn't feature in the top 100 by the way.
That’s interesting - Leinster’s own stats have O’Brien and Frawley on 1 each and Tracy on 2. However they have both Ruddock and Penny on 6 (which is more expected) and Leavy, JOB and McGrath all on 4.
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MylesNaGapoleen
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Re: Tour to NZ 2022

Post by MylesNaGapoleen »

Flash Gordon wrote: August 2nd, 2022, 1:39 pm
MylesNaGapoleen wrote: August 2nd, 2022, 1:19 pm agree about the irish defence but the same could be said for leinster. we are a really tough defence to break down.

POC coming in is bound to have had a boost to the Irish setup, he is an inspirational leader.

There is, without doubt for me, a lancaster/ leinster sheen to a lot of Irelands attack moves that is accentuated or underlined when sexton is taken off the pitch. The second quarter of the first test in NZ is, perhaps, a good example. Catt has obviously added value to that with Ireland but a lot is unmistakably leinster-esque. No shame in that. Ireland were very munster-esque 2003-2010. No shame in that either. It's bound to happen when there are only 4 provincial sides.

If we were to pick one person out from the Irish coaching team, for me it would be farrell for having the cojones, when some were calling for his head, to stick to the plan and giving the players the framework & freedom to play exciting, heads-up, fast flowing, winning rugby.
I think Catt is working with what he has to work with a team of very talented and skilled rugby players who are used to moving the ball. There is Leinster influence there of course but guys like Bundee and Hansen have come in and played the system perfectly. Defensively, one of the reasons Leinster are very good defensively is line speed and Henshaw and Ringrose have certainly brought that (as have Bundee and Earls)

Easterby's influence, as Jezzer says, has been huge and he doesn't get the credit he deserves. POC's lineout work is a difference maker, Leinster have a very average line out and he's moved that on no question. All the inspiration stuff I buy less, the Irish media have an obsession with inspiration which they think is inextricably intertwined with Munster, a team that haven't won anything in years. Sure culture matters but the reality of top level rugby is that it's systemized and practiced and that's what wins games generally. We lost the first test because we executed our game plan poorly and won the next 2 because we executed well - difference was technical not motivational in my view.
fair points.

I would tend to disagree with you a tad on the POC and inspirational side of things. I vividly remember him, via DVDs, making some rousing speeches in dressing rooms for ireland (in particular v england in croke park), munster and the lions back in a day when motivation, perhaps, had a significant impact on the outcome.
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Re: Tour to NZ 2022

Post by Flash Gordon »

Xanthippe wrote: August 2nd, 2022, 8:10 pm
Flash Gordon wrote: August 2nd, 2022, 4:33 pm
wixfjord wrote: August 2nd, 2022, 3:46 pm Does anyone have a list of the players who make most turnovers for us? Would imagine it's split between guys like Porter, Doris, Kelleher/Sheehan and VDF, but we don't have a really clear 'poacher'.
We have 4 lads on 6 turnovers last year (73rd in the league!) - Tommy O'Brien, Josh, James Tracy and Ciaran Frawley. Bet you wouldn't have put money on that list! POM doesn't feature in the top 100 by the way.
That’s interesting - Leinster’s own stats have O’Brien and Frawley on 1 each and Tracy on 2. However they have both Ruddock and Penny on 6 (which is more expected) and Leavy, JOB and McGrath all on 4.
I had a look at the Leinster stats on the website, doesn't seem to have been updated. Are you getting yours from elsewhere Xan?

https://www.leinsterrugby.ie/fixtures-a ... breakdown/
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Re: Tour to NZ 2022

Post by Flash Gordon »

MylesNaGapoleen wrote: August 2nd, 2022, 9:27 pm
Flash Gordon wrote: August 2nd, 2022, 1:39 pm
MylesNaGapoleen wrote: August 2nd, 2022, 1:19 pm agree about the irish defence but the same could be said for leinster. we are a really tough defence to break down.

POC coming in is bound to have had a boost to the Irish setup, he is an inspirational leader.

There is, without doubt for me, a lancaster/ leinster sheen to a lot of Irelands attack moves that is accentuated or underlined when sexton is taken off the pitch. The second quarter of the first test in NZ is, perhaps, a good example. Catt has obviously added value to that with Ireland but a lot is unmistakably leinster-esque. No shame in that. Ireland were very munster-esque 2003-2010. No shame in that either. It's bound to happen when there are only 4 provincial sides.

If we were to pick one person out from the Irish coaching team, for me it would be farrell for having the cojones, when some were calling for his head, to stick to the plan and giving the players the framework & freedom to play exciting, heads-up, fast flowing, winning rugby.
I think Catt is working with what he has to work with a team of very talented and skilled rugby players who are used to moving the ball. There is Leinster influence there of course but guys like Bundee and Hansen have come in and played the system perfectly. Defensively, one of the reasons Leinster are very good defensively is line speed and Henshaw and Ringrose have certainly brought that (as have Bundee and Earls)

Easterby's influence, as Jezzer says, has been huge and he doesn't get the credit he deserves. POC's lineout work is a difference maker, Leinster have a very average line out and he's moved that on no question. All the inspiration stuff I buy less, the Irish media have an obsession with inspiration which they think is inextricably intertwined with Munster, a team that haven't won anything in years. Sure culture matters but the reality of top level rugby is that it's systemized and practiced and that's what wins games generally. We lost the first test because we executed our game plan poorly and won the next 2 because we executed well - difference was technical not motivational in my view.

fair points.

I would tend to disagree with you a tad on the POC and inspirational side of things. I vividly remember him, via DVDs, making some rousing speeches in dressing rooms for ireland (in particular v england in croke park), munster and the lions back in a day when motivation, perhaps, had a significant impact on the outcome.

Not saying it doesn't matter or that it's irrelevant just that the key to winning matches is game plan, execution of same, conditioning, talent and technical excellence. Joe Schmidt was always credited for the fact that players were really clear on the roles they had to play and executed brilliantly. Again, motivation and guts has a part to play for sure but we overplay it in Ireland as a difference maker. During the 80's and 80's Irish teams always used to come at the opposition like mad men and then we'd settle back into being a very poor team and lose - and of course there's the famous Willie Anderson assault on the haka.....before New Zealand dicked us.
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ronk
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Re: Tour to NZ 2022

Post by ronk »

Flash Gordon wrote: August 2nd, 2022, 4:34 pm
Oldschoolsocks wrote: August 2nd, 2022, 3:58 pm
wixfjord wrote: August 2nd, 2022, 3:46 pm

Yep that's a great point.

Not sure whether we (as in Leinster) purposefully choose not to go for them (either tactically or to reduce contact injuries), or whether we don't have the players for it, but it's been a missing part of our game since the days of Leavy/SOB.

Ireland has POM & Beirne, but we don't have that threat in blue at all.

It's an area I'd hope Leo/Stu might be looking at in the off season.

Does anyone have a list of the players who make most turnovers for us? Would imagine it's split between guys like Porter, Doris, Kelleher/Sheehan and VDF, but we don't have a really clear 'poacher'.
Open to correction here, but I feel part of the reason we don’t get many turnovers is that we tend to have a majority of possession when we play and maybe there’s a lot less focus on it for that reason?
You'd think but we were number 2 in the league on tackles made. We're happy to play without the ball when needed.
If they can't move the ball, they'll kick it soon enough. If Josh is making tackles behind the gainline then he's doing the same job.

Poaching is useful heroics that lifts an otherwise struggling defence, but it's done at the expense of creating space elsewhere and conceding penalties. It's a tactic that's very dependent on referee amenability, I don't think we get much of that in URC lately.

We certainly could be better at selectively attacking breakdowns to force teams to put in more attackers.

The injury rate of our opensides does support the idea that maybe less aggression in that area is productive. We'll see now with SOB coaching.
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Re: Tour to NZ 2022

Post by Dexter »

ronk wrote: August 3rd, 2022, 12:27 pm
Flash Gordon wrote: August 2nd, 2022, 4:34 pm
Oldschoolsocks wrote: August 2nd, 2022, 3:58 pm

Open to correction here, but I feel part of the reason we don’t get many turnovers is that we tend to have a majority of possession when we play and maybe there’s a lot less focus on it for that reason?
You'd think but we were number 2 in the league on tackles made. We're happy to play without the ball when needed.
If they can't move the ball, they'll kick it soon enough. If Josh is making tackles behind the gainline then he's doing the same job.

Poaching is useful heroics that lifts an otherwise struggling defence, but it's done at the expense of creating space elsewhere and conceding penalties. It's a tactic that's very dependent on referee amenability, I don't think we get much of that in URC lately.

We certainly could be better at selectively attacking breakdowns to force teams to put in more attackers.

The injury rate of our opensides does support the idea that maybe less aggression in that area is productive. We'll see now with SOB coaching.
Agree. IIRC it looked like we did get over the ball in last few mins of the Euro final (Big Mike??) but Barnes decided not to award it. Probably would have won the game if he had.
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Re: Tour to NZ 2022

Post by Twist »

When you think about it, the attrition rate on Leinster opensides is shocking; SOB missed huge chunks of his career, Leavy's career was cut short, we haven't seen Connors in a long time. It might be that the coaches have just decided its too risky to make it a central pillar of our game especially since refs are slow to reward us.
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Re: Tour to NZ 2022

Post by Xanthippe »

Flash Gordon wrote: August 3rd, 2022, 10:17 am
Xanthippe wrote: August 2nd, 2022, 8:10 pm
Flash Gordon wrote: August 2nd, 2022, 4:33 pm

We have 4 lads on 6 turnovers last year (73rd in the league!) - Tommy O'Brien, Josh, James Tracy and Ciaran Frawley. Bet you wouldn't have put money on that list! POM doesn't feature in the top 100 by the way.
That’s interesting - Leinster’s own stats have O’Brien and Frawley on 1 each and Tracy on 2. However they have both Ruddock and Penny on 6 (which is more expected) and Leavy, JOB and McGrath all on 4.
I had a look at the Leinster stats on the website, doesn't seem to have been updated. Are you getting yours from elsewhere Xan?

https://www.leinsterrugby.ie/fixtures-a ... breakdown/
I was using each player's own page but have just looked again and the numbers don't actually stack up. Take Josh for example - according to the games played panel he played 1146 minutes and scored 7 trys but according to the stats table below that he played 699 minutes and scored 2 trys.

I may have to make a visit to the RANT thread because it really, REALLY annoys me when stats are not kept up to date - either do them properly or don't do them at all :x :x :x
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Re: Tour to NZ 2022

Post by hugonaut »

Xanthippe wrote: August 3rd, 2022, 1:58 pm I may have to make a visit to the RANT thread because it really, REALLY annoys me when stats are not kept up to date - either do them properly or don't do them at all :x :x :x
Completely agree with you Xan. Of course there are always going to be accuracy issues, but in this, as with so many other things, it's a case of scope.

It's absolutely f*cking pointless releasing information which is completely inaccurate. You need a margin of error of up to about 5% for this data to be relevant. Anything more than that and don't bother collecting it ... and certainly don't publish it.
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Re: Tour to NZ 2022

Post by jezzer »

Twist wrote: August 3rd, 2022, 12:34 pm When you think about it, the attrition rate on Leinster opensides is shocking; SOB missed huge chunks of his career, Leavy's career was cut short, we haven't seen Connors in a long time. It might be that the coaches have just decided its too risky to make it a central pillar of our game especially since refs are slow to reward us.
7s and 12s are probably the highest attrition positions on the pitch. Someone can probably prove or disprove that with stats, but notionally opensides have to be smaller and more mobile but stick their heads where nobody should....
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Re: Tour to NZ 2022

Post by wixfjord »

Twist wrote: August 3rd, 2022, 12:34 pm When you think about it, the attrition rate on Leinster opensides is shocking; SOB missed huge chunks of his career, Leavy's career was cut short, we haven't seen Connors in a long time. It might be that the coaches have just decided its too risky to make it a central pillar of our game especially since refs are slow to reward us.
That's what I was hinting at above.

Nothing to back this up, but I think coaches might be purposely not going after poaches to the same level because they might have data that poaching in a prone position is disproportionately risky for injuries.
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Re: Tour to NZ 2022

Post by Xanthippe »

hugonaut wrote: August 3rd, 2022, 4:28 pm
Xanthippe wrote: August 3rd, 2022, 1:58 pm I may have to make a visit to the RANT thread because it really, REALLY annoys me when stats are not kept up to date - either do them properly or don't do them at all :x :x :x
Completely agree with you Xan. Of course there are always going to be accuracy issues, but in this, as with so many other things, it's a case of scope.

It's absolutely f*cking pointless releasing information which is completely inaccurate. You need a margin of error of up to about 5% for this data to be relevant. Anything more than that and don't bother collecting it ... and certainly don't publish it.
I might try to keep some more stats myself this season. I have traditionally only kept games played/minutes/scoring/cards but I'll try to add some of Metres, Kicks, Passes, Runs, Offloads, Clean Breaks, Defenders Beaten, Tackles, Turnovers - it's not always easy because different sites carry different stats and sometimes they can be hard to find.
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Re: Tour to NZ 2022

Post by The Doc »

Xanthippe wrote:
hugonaut wrote: August 3rd, 2022, 4:28 pm
Xanthippe wrote: August 3rd, 2022, 1:58 pm I may have to make a visit to the RANT thread because it really, REALLY annoys me when stats are not kept up to date - either do them properly or don't do them at all :x :x :x
Completely agree with you Xan. Of course there are always going to be accuracy issues, but in this, as with so many other things, it's a case of scope.

It's absolutely f*cking pointless releasing information which is completely inaccurate. You need a margin of error of up to about 5% for this data to be relevant. Anything more than that and don't bother collecting it ... and certainly don't publish it.
I might try to keep some more stats myself this season. I have traditionally only kept games played/minutes/scoring/cards but I'll try to add some of Metres, Kicks, Passes, Runs, Offloads, Clean Breaks, Defenders Beaten, Tackles, Turnovers - it's not always easy because different sites carry different stats and sometimes they can be hard to find.
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Re: Tour to NZ 2022

Post by hugonaut »

Nienaber was prepared to talk about Ireland’s triumph in New Zealand which had lifted them to No 1 in the world rankings.

“Ireland are a quality side, and they pitch up with intensity. Their execution was quite good in the plan they had,” he said.

“We are not Ireland, we are not Leinster, and we don’t play like them. But the main thing that we took out of that is whatever plan you decided on for the All Blacks, you will have to bring intensity, and you will have to bring accuracy.”

He had noted Ireland's successful mauling tactics against the All Blacks, though felt there was more to the Irish game than just that, with a diverse attack central to their success.

“You must have balance and Ireland had balance. They scored with maul tries, but they also had other means of attacking.

“The lineout maul will always be a big part of the game and it’s an exciting part of the game because there are a lot of technical and tactical decisions you have to make as a defensive side in terms of how you are going to control that.

“That might open up space somewhere else which you can attack if you want to.”


[source: https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/int ... eing-fired ]
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Re: Tour to NZ 2022

Post by Oldschool »

Just an impression.
Quite a number of turnovers by France and french teams against Leinster have been bulldozer counter rucks.
Enough of them perhaps to be the difference between winning and losing.
How to counteract those gains is a "problem needing a solution"
The NZ pack were unable to bring that type of counter rucking to bear.
It's going to be interesting to see how NZ and SA approach the breakdown over the next coupe of weeks.
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Re: Tour to NZ 2022

Post by Ruckedtobits »

South African team for tomorrow's game against NZ has a very familiar look. It should certainly give us a good benchmark as to what level NZ are in World terms:

https://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/lineups?ga ... gue=244293

Certainly looks to me as if Joe pointed the finger at the front five. Fascinating that no comment has been made whether concussion / injury played any part in second-row selection. When you're dropped in NZ, you're dropped.

If NZ win tomorrow, I will be very pleased. So, I suspect, will Faz
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