Tour to NZ 2022

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Ruckedtobits
Shane Jennings
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Re: Tour to NZ 2022

Post by Ruckedtobits »

So Foster & Joe dump Plumtree and Maoor from the coaching ticket and bring in Jason Ryan from Crusaders as Forwards Coach. A bit of a poisoned chalice to be appointed Forwards Coach heading to SA for two games in a row v the 'Boks.

NZRFU have a lot of pressure on them and really need these decisions to work. The rugby public in NZ are not used to failure!
leinsterforever
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Re: Tour to NZ 2022

Post by leinsterforever »

Ruckedtobits wrote: July 24th, 2022, 12:27 pm So Foster & Joe dump Plumtree and Maoor from the coaching ticket and bring in Jason Ryan from Crusaders as Forwards Coach. A bit of a poisoned chalice to be appointed Forwards Coach heading to SA for two games in a row v the 'Boks.

NZRFU have a lot of pressure on them and really need these decisions to work. The rugby public in NZ are not used to failure!
I loved how effective the lineout and maul were when Plumtree was Ireland forwards coach. I wonder would he fancy a return to Ireland to coach with Leinster at some stage.
Ruckedtobits
Shane Jennings
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Re: Tour to NZ 2022

Post by Ruckedtobits »

leinsterforever wrote: July 24th, 2022, 1:38 pm
Ruckedtobits wrote: July 24th, 2022, 12:27 pm So Foster & Joe dump Plumtree and Maoor from the coaching ticket and bring in Jason Ryan from Crusaders as Forwards Coach. A bit of a poisoned chalice to be appointed Forwards Coach heading to SA for two games in a row v the 'Boks.

NZRFU have a lot of pressure on them and really need these decisions to work. The rugby public in NZ are not used to failure!
I loved how effective the lineout and maul were when Plumtree was Ireland forwards coach. I wonder would he fancy a return to Ireland to coach with Leinster at some stage.
The guy I'd like to get back is Greg Feek. He brought the greatest improvement in our scrum and I'll never forget hearing some of his comments from half-time in Northant' Saints Final
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hugonaut
Shane Jennings
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Re: Tour to NZ 2022

Post by hugonaut »

I think we will need to check our back-up props in a couple of serious games [Cian Healy and Dave Kilcoyne on the LH side, Finlay Bealham and Tom O'Toole on the TH side].

Given our issues with props on the tour to NZ, I think we will take 3 LHs, 3 Hs and 3 THs to RWC23. And once you take them as touring members, you want to be confident enough in their ability to pick them. At the last RWC, Joe brought John Ryan and only used him in one match: 58 mins against Russia. It's a bad selection

The biggest question mark over the front rowers in Kilcoyne, who has had numerous injury issues over the last three seasons and didn't tour NZ. My feeling about guys like Loughman or Wycherley or Warwick replacing him is that if they are only marginally better than Killer on the training pitch [and it's a subjective viewpoint, after all], then is it worth losing the experience and the personality in a touring squad? That's a rhetorical question. The answer is no.

If you bring in a young lad into the international set-up and he's challenging records in the gym, or bursting through tackles as a carrier, or is just clearly an absolute unit, then the players around him will accept [grudgingly or otherwise] why you've dropped a long-term campaigner, somebody they've soldiered alongside and got to know. If he's not making a significant difference, they'll ask what the f*ck he's doing there. Killer is a big personality, a player who has played quite a lot of test rugby over the last decade. If he's up to it physically, he'll bring more to the party than those guys mentioned above.

Healy will be 35 before our next test matches, and Killer will turn 34 after them but before Six Nations 2023. The big question I have is how best to platoon them to get a good 80 mins out of the two of them in tandem – should it be 50mins for Cian and 30 mins for Killer, or 55 mins for Killer and 25mins for Cian? Is Cian best used as a sub whether Porter starts or not?

Cian is bolted on, in my opinion. He has gone about making this squad in all the right ways – improving his versatility by opting to double-up and tighthead and triple-up at hooker, changing his physical preparation to become more effective over the shorter periods offered as a bench player. He has a phenomenal level of experience, has a big, positive presence in the squad and offers that excellent versatility.

We will also need Bealham to start some games. Japan [July 2021], Georgia [Nov 2020], US Eagles [Nov 2018], Canada [Nov 2016] - they're the only games he has started in for Ireland. I'd start him against Fiji with O'Toole backing him up and Australia with Furlong backing him up, then give him a start against Italy in the Six Nations. In my opinion, he has to have more starts under his belt going to a RWC – if the sh!t hits the fan and Tadhg gets injured, you want the rest of the team to be able to view it as an injury, not an irredeemable blow from which we can't recover.

Most of these guys who have been on the bench for a while do well enough when they get a start. We all know that Tadhg is a much better player than Bealham, but we're not actually sure how good Bealham is at test level. My feeling is that he's going to be serviceable. I actually think he's the rare Connacht international who gets too little praise.

I think it would be viable not to start Porter or Furlong until the SA match. Play them in the warm-ups, let them get their hands on the ball ... but do we need them to play against Tonga or Romania? We shouldn't.
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dropkick
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Re: Tour to NZ 2022

Post by dropkick »

Interesting to see ireland had 42% possession in the 3rd test vs NZ. Just goes to show how good the attack is. I'd say ireland is tactically the best attacking side in the world now. The lack of speed on the wing is often spoken about but I don't see any other side playing with the pace of ireland. There are multiple attacking options with players running off the ball at pace.


The type of wingers are a microcosm of the way Ireland play especially Mack Hansen. He's not the biggest nor the fastest but he is a terrific all rounder. He has a high workrate, can pass, can kick and can act as another playmaker. While the Schmidt era ended with the most predictable attack in world rugby, it's the opposite now.


It will be interesting to see the matches against France and England. There was a big deal about Frances physicality after that match in Paris but this coaching setup learn from their mistakes. The breakdown was where the French won the match but it wouldn't surprise me to see ireland coming up with a solution. Before that the Boks come to town. Another match against a big physical side. So we have 3 matches against big physical teams before the world cup and possibly some match in the warm up. That should help.
leinsterforever
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Re: Tour to NZ 2022

Post by leinsterforever »

Ruckedtobits wrote: July 24th, 2022, 1:45 pm
leinsterforever wrote: July 24th, 2022, 1:38 pm
Ruckedtobits wrote: July 24th, 2022, 12:27 pm So Foster & Joe dump Plumtree and Maoor from the coaching ticket and bring in Jason Ryan from Crusaders as Forwards Coach. A bit of a poisoned chalice to be appointed Forwards Coach heading to SA for two games in a row v the 'Boks.

NZRFU have a lot of pressure on them and really need these decisions to work. The rugby public in NZ are not used to failure!
I loved how effective the lineout and maul were when Plumtree was Ireland forwards coach. I wonder would he fancy a return to Ireland to coach with Leinster at some stage.
The guy I'd like to get back is Greg Feek. He brought the greatest improvement in our scrum and I'll never forget hearing some of his comments from half-time in Northant' Saints Final
Yeah, that would be nice too. Cullen, Lancaster, Goodman, Plumtree, Feek, O'Brien; too many cooks?
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ustix
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Re: Tour to NZ 2022

Post by ustix »

Throw in Gert Smal while you're at it.
That which does not bend breaks
Ruckedtobits
Shane Jennings
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Re: Tour to NZ 2022

Post by Ruckedtobits »

the spoofer wrote: July 5th, 2022, 2:30 pm I listened to the Molecast at lunchtime. It was the one from the morning of the Maori game. They really should be getting a wider audience as the provide more insight into Irish rugby than the talking heads on the other podcasts that are floating around.

Then again, they would have to dop the "fuc.s"
I finally got round to listening to Molecast #70, recorded after the 2nd Test & on the evening of the 2nd Maori game. Although it precedes the 3rd Test (that's Molecast #71), it is hugely informative and entertaining and, without trying to spoof it, really shows an extraordinary breadth of rugby knowledge & experience.

I particularly enjoyed the second-half of a 90 min show where they cover such diverse topics as: Foster v other Coaches (now & past); Farrell's / Cullen's plans for Frawley; how to get real value out of a Tour; the importance of the Maori games; Argentina's 2007 3rd place in RWC.

So with no rugby till the Boks host NZ, Molecasts #70 &#71 will provide many different snippets about the No 1 team in World Rugby to keep you going.
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MylesNaGapoleen
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Re: Tour to NZ 2022

Post by MylesNaGapoleen »

Ruckedtobits wrote: July 24th, 2022, 1:45 pm
The guy I'd like to get back is Greg Feek. He brought the greatest improvement in our scrum and I'll never forget hearing some of his comments from half-time in Northant' Saints Final
what did he say?

I was at that game and the turnaround with the scrum in the second half was incredible. after being demolished in the first half to winning THAT scrum penalty just inside their half that johnny converted.
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the spoofer
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Re: Tour to NZ 2022

Post by the spoofer »

Ruckedtobits wrote: July 25th, 2022, 5:02 pm
the spoofer wrote: July 5th, 2022, 2:30 pm I listened to the Molecast at lunchtime. It was the one from the morning of the Maori game. They really should be getting a wider audience as the provide more insight into Irish rugby than the talking heads on the other podcasts that are floating around.

Then again, they would have to dop the "fuc.s"
I finally got round to listening to Molecast #70, recorded after the 2nd Test & on the evening of the 2nd Maori game. Although it precedes the 3rd Test (that's Molecast #71), it is hugely informative and entertaining and, without trying to spoof it, really shows an extraordinary breadth of rugby knowledge & experience.

I particularly enjoyed the second-half of a 90 min show where they cover such diverse topics as: Foster v other Coaches (now & past); Farrell's / Cullen's plans for Frawley; how to get real value out of a Tour; the importance of the Maori games; Argentina's 2007 3rd place in RWC.

So with no rugby till the Boks host NZ, Molecasts #70 &#71 will provide many different snippets about the No 1 team in World Rugby to keep you going.
Molecast #70 is their finest work despite(because of?) the fact that they aren't physically present together. 71# was surprisingly less euphoric than I thought it would be, certainly more contained than I was!
Ruckedtobits
Shane Jennings
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Re: Tour to NZ 2022

Post by Ruckedtobits »

Lots of headlines about a Steve Hanson interview of NZ TV overnight. Haven't been able to access the actual broadcast but here's coverage of the headlines:

https://www.the42.ie/steve-hansen-new-z ... 8-Jul2022/
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dropkick
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Re: Tour to NZ 2022

Post by dropkick »

Ruckedtobits wrote: July 28th, 2022, 8:57 am Lots of headlines about a Steve Hanson interview of NZ TV overnight. Haven't been able to access the actual broadcast but here's coverage of the headlines:

https://www.the42.ie/steve-hansen-new-z ... 8-Jul2022/
https://youtu.be/_muEuxEjqfk


He makes a good point about the NZ u20s. They dominated when the JWC first began but have not been great in recent years. The talent pool in NZ isn't as deep these days.
Ruckedtobits
Shane Jennings
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Re: Tour to NZ 2022

Post by Ruckedtobits »

dropkick wrote: July 28th, 2022, 10:08 am
Ruckedtobits wrote: July 28th, 2022, 8:57 am Lots of headlines about a Steve Hanson interview of NZ TV overnight. Haven't been able to access the actual broadcast but here's coverage of the headlines:

https://www.the42.ie/steve-hansen-new-z ... 8-Jul2022/
https://youtu.be/_muEuxEjqfk


He makes a good point about the NZ u20s. They dominated when the JWC first began but have not been great in recent years. The talent pool in NZ isn't as deep these days.
Cheers @dropkick.
riocard911
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Re: Tour to NZ 2022

Post by riocard911 »

dropkick wrote: July 28th, 2022, 10:08 am
Ruckedtobits wrote: July 28th, 2022, 8:57 am Lots of headlines about a Steve Hanson interview of NZ TV overnight. Haven't been able to access the actual broadcast but here's coverage of the headlines:

https://www.the42.ie/steve-hansen-new-z ... 8-Jul2022/
https://youtu.be/_muEuxEjqfk


He makes a good point about the NZ u20s. They dominated when the JWC first began but have not been great in recent years. The talent pool in NZ isn't as deep these days.
I imagine the ongoing concussion discussion has made even parents in NZ wary. Which makes the SANZAR decision to go for the 20 minute red card system in this year's Rugby Championship even more baffling. Talk about sticking one's head in the sand......
Last edited by riocard911 on July 28th, 2022, 8:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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hugonaut
Shane Jennings
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Re: Tour to NZ 2022

Post by hugonaut »

dropkick wrote: July 28th, 2022, 10:08 am
https://youtu.be/_muEuxEjqfk

He makes a good point about the NZ u20s. They dominated when the JWC first began but have not been great in recent years. The talent pool in NZ isn't as deep these days.
Thanks for posting that Dropkick. Love to hear Steve Hansen talk about rugby.
Ruckedtobits
Shane Jennings
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Re: Tour to NZ 2022

Post by Ruckedtobits »

6 days after we beat NZ in a Test Series in NZ and the subject is already dropping deep in the "Active Topic" list. Still the greatest rugby achievement for an Irish team.
riocard911
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Re: Tour to NZ 2022

Post by riocard911 »

Ruckedtobits wrote: July 29th, 2022, 1:29 pm 6 days after we beat NZ in a Test Series in NZ and the subject is already dropping deep in the "Active Topic" list. Still the greatest rugby achievement for an Irish team.
Just for you, RTB, the behind the scenes video courtesy of the IRFU. Just went online in the last couple of hours:

https://youtu.be/_4GagIoHkAw
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Laighin Break
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Re: Tour to NZ 2022

Post by Laighin Break »

Ruckedtobits wrote: July 29th, 2022, 1:29 pm 6 days after we beat NZ in a Test Series in NZ and the subject is already dropping deep in the "Active Topic" list. Still the greatest rugby achievement for an Irish team.
It's 13 days...
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Oldschoolsocks
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Re: Tour to NZ 2022

Post by Oldschoolsocks »

riocard911 wrote: July 29th, 2022, 6:13 pm
Ruckedtobits wrote: July 29th, 2022, 1:29 pm 6 days after we beat NZ in a Test Series in NZ and the subject is already dropping deep in the "Active Topic" list. Still the greatest rugby achievement for an Irish team.
Just for you, RTB, the behind the scenes video courtesy of the IRFU. Just went online in the last couple of hours:

https://youtu.be/_4GagIoHkAw
That bit where they lift Benty after the 2nd Maori game almost brought a tear to my eye. Thanks for posting
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ronk
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Re: Tour to NZ 2022

Post by ronk »

hugonaut wrote: July 24th, 2022, 1:58 pm I think we will need to check our back-up props in a couple of serious games [Cian Healy and Dave Kilcoyne on the LH side, Finlay Bealham and Tom O'Toole on the TH side].

Given our issues with props on the tour to NZ, I think we will take 3 LHs, 3 Hs and 3 THs to RWC23. And once you take them as touring members, you want to be confident enough in their ability to pick them. At the last RWC, Joe brought John Ryan and only used him in one match: 58 mins against Russia. It's a bad selection

The biggest question mark over the front rowers in Kilcoyne, who has had numerous injury issues over the last three seasons and didn't tour NZ. My feeling about guys like Loughman or Wycherley or Warwick replacing him is that if they are only marginally better than Killer on the training pitch [and it's a subjective viewpoint, after all], then is it worth losing the experience and the personality in a touring squad? That's a rhetorical question. The answer is no.

If you bring in a young lad into the international set-up and he's challenging records in the gym, or bursting through tackles as a carrier, or is just clearly an absolute unit, then the players around him will accept [grudgingly or otherwise] why you've dropped a long-term campaigner, somebody they've soldiered alongside and got to know. If he's not making a significant difference, they'll ask what the f*ck he's doing there. Killer is a big personality, a player who has played quite a lot of test rugby over the last decade. If he's up to it physically, he'll bring more to the party than those guys mentioned above.

Healy will be 35 before our next test matches, and Killer will turn 34 after them but before Six Nations 2023. The big question I have is how best to platoon them to get a good 80 mins out of the two of them in tandem – should it be 50mins for Cian and 30 mins for Killer, or 55 mins for Killer and 25mins for Cian? Is Cian best used as a sub whether Porter starts or not?

Cian is bolted on, in my opinion. He has gone about making this squad in all the right ways – improving his versatility by opting to double-up and tighthead and triple-up at hooker, changing his physical preparation to become more effective over the shorter periods offered as a bench player. He has a phenomenal level of experience, has a big, positive presence in the squad and offers that excellent versatility.

We will also need Bealham to start some games. Japan [July 2021], Georgia [Nov 2020], US Eagles [Nov 2018], Canada [Nov 2016] - they're the only games he has started in for Ireland. I'd start him against Fiji with O'Toole backing him up and Australia with Furlong backing him up, then give him a start against Italy in the Six Nations. In my opinion, he has to have more starts under his belt going to a RWC – if the sh!t hits the fan and Tadhg gets injured, you want the rest of the team to be able to view it as an injury, not an irredeemable blow from which we can't recover.

Most of these guys who have been on the bench for a while do well enough when they get a start. We all know that Tadhg is a much better player than Bealham, but we're not actually sure how good Bealham is at test level. My feeling is that he's going to be serviceable. I actually think he's the rare Connacht international who gets too little praise.

I think it would be viable not to start Porter or Furlong until the SA match. Play them in the warm-ups, let them get their hands on the ball ... but do we need them to play against Tonga or Romania? We shouldn't.
The schedule this time round is much easier. You can start a guy for all the games and he's still only played 5 times in 6 weeks (including a QF).

It lends itself to picking pretty much full strength in the first game, rotating the subs and spares for Tonga to keep them warm too. Then it becomes warm-up, two weeks, SA, two weeks, Scotland for frontliners.

Bealham covers loosehead and it's easy to get someone out fast. So we could try to start Healy against Tonga and give him 70-80 minutes.

If Kilcoyne is in form he can be useful in the squad, but instead of O'Toole. Start him against Tonga and Healy can cover tighthead on the bench with Bealham starting. Porter/Furlong would only come on if there were multiple injuries.

It would be as easy to start Bealham in the first game and give Furlong a shot or two off the bench before SA. It's really a question of how much Faz wants an extra place elsewhere.
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