Tour to NZ 2022

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ronk
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Re: Tour to NZ 2022

Post by ronk »

Loughman is in the Ireland squad.

Are the people who were suggesting that Healy be left at home seriously considering that Loughman should be 17 for the NZ tests?
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LeRouxIsPHat
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Re: Tour to NZ 2022

Post by LeRouxIsPHat »

I think they like Treadwell's power. Same with Heffernan, neither of them are particularly solid but if you're going that far down the depth chart then they can both come up with a big hit or strong carry and that will justify the selections. Not sure how bad Ahern's injury is but I wonder if he'd have been picked if he was fit? I expected a few more developmental selections so maybe not.

I don't agree about McCloskey. The four first choice centres are set in stone so I don't see a point in picking another specialist, there's way more value in picking a versatile player that you can groom for a World Cup squad and Frawley offers something different as well.

The outhalf situation doesn't look great but is there any combination that would have? Carty is injured and Burns isn't good enough and doesn't kick for Ulster. As much as I rate Ross he hasn't played well for Ireland, had a mare in the CC final, had a poor game last week, and doesn't suit our style of play so I can't really see an argument for picking him. Even if you don't think Harry is third choice (and maybe that's actually Frawley) surely it makes sense to try one of them against the Maori rather than wasting it on someone older? If it goes well then that's great news, if it doesn't then at least you've found out more about them and it'll clarify plans for next season and give them things to work on.

In the circumstances I can understand why we picked Joey but I just hope that all bets are off from next season and that if he keeps performing like his most recent games then there's no reason he should even be ahead of guys like Burns or Ross who haven't been good enough in the past.
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Re: Tour to NZ 2022

Post by LeRouxIsPHat »

ronk wrote: June 14th, 2022, 3:35 pm Loughman is in the Ireland squad.

Are the people who were suggesting that Healy be left at home seriously considering that Loughman should be 17 for the NZ tests?
I think you need to be more realistic about where Healy's game is at the moment. Clearly we would have had his decline in mind when moving Porter across and the Leinster coaches didn't put him on until the dying moments of the game on Friday even though Porter was hardly ripping up any trees. He's gone from being first choice for Ireland to not even being trusted off the bench for his club when it matters.
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hugonaut
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Re: Tour to NZ 2022

Post by hugonaut »

TMC wrote: June 14th, 2022, 3:00 pm Think Byrne fortunate to go and bringing Healy the wrong call. Healy looks jaded, flogging him makes no sense. A summer off DJing at the festivals to recharge his batteries would have been the better option IMO. Molony has had a better season than Treadwell, his lineout work and passing at a different level. The TH Lock will be Henderson if fit, suspect McCarthy is next up and will start the Maori games and Ryan is an in case of emergency option so don’t really see the argument for Treadwell ahead of him. I don’t think the Treadwell as a TH lock argument holds water as Treadwell tends to replace AOC not Henderson most of the time for Ulster. If they want another TH Lock bring Kleyn who actually does the needful. Central contracts probably play a part but on current form neither Murray or Carbery should be going. Think over the course of the season Ross Byrne entitled to feel a small bit hacked off, couple of high profile mistakes in pressure games of late may have cost him. His style of play doesn’t suit what Ireland are trying to do but both he and Burns have been in much better form IMO than Carbery who is very lucky to be going as he is playing like a drain. Cooney’s ship has sailed for whatever reason, but not bringing Doak is a mistake from a development point of view.
In the centre think McCloskey is desperately unfortunate, he losses out to Frawley’s versatility and Byrne's anointed status with the management, that’s the wrong call. Harry cant oust his brother, if they are bringing a "development 10" then go with Frawley and bring McCloskey who must wonder how well does he have to play to get a fair crack of the whip. He has arguably been the best 12 in Ireland over the course of the season, management have really missed an opportunity not picking him, think a combination of him playing inside Robbie well worth having a look at before the RWC. His hands are excellent and his offloading out of the tackle is top drawer which would be an asset to the style of play they’re looking to implement and he always makes inroads. For me, he makes those around him look better players, that’s the sign of a real class act.
Anyway best of luck to them, first game is in a fortnight, it’s not much time.
Yeah, I would have brought McCloskey as well. I think he has been playing great rugby and like you say, he makes the players inside and outside him play better. No12 has been Ireland's deepest position for almost five years now, ever since Aki qualified for Ireland. In my opinion McCloskey has done well whenever he has got the nod. He's unfortunate that it hasn't come more often, but he has reacted well and his form with Ulster has been consistently high. Sometimes that happens.

From my perspective, Farrell picking players [like Harry Byrne, Jerry Loughman, Kieran Treadwell etc.] who aren't automatic first choices in their provincial set-ups seem to get people's backs up more than it should. With the exception of NIQ/NIE players, all the pro players [and presumably the amateur ones] in Ireland are available to Farrell to pick. It's his squad, he can pick who he likes. That he has opinions which differ on some players to those of their provincial coaches shouldn't be in any way surprising.

I'm not sure if I'm phrasing this well, but there's a sort of old-fashioned idea that getting capped for Ireland is a reward for a great season ... and of course that's part of it. But it's also just getting selected for a team by a different coach. And like Joe Schmidt used to start Isaac Boss for away games and Eoin Reddan for home games, sometimes the coach has specific things that he is looking for.

For example, if Farrell was coaching Leinster this season Ross Byrne might have been picking the lint out of his pockets all season while Harry benched the eight games that Sexton started and started the other fifteen ahead of his older brother. If he was coaching Munster he might have picked Big Tom Ahern beside Patsy Kleyn for twenty games, instead of van Graan's preference for Fineen Wycherley.

And I'm not saying that if he was Ireland coach and got to select the provincial team, then he'd go that way; I'm saying if he was the provincial coach and selected the players he wanted to select, he'd select those players.
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Laighin Break
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Re: Tour to NZ 2022

Post by Laighin Break »

I think you're exactly right there Hugonaut. As many have said, RB doesn't suit Ireland's style of play so it makes complete sense that he's not included in the squad and that HB is instead.
It reminds of a bit of Jim Gavin with Dublin - he didn't necessarily pick the 15-20 best footballers in Dublin (though most of them were in that bracket), he chose a team that played his (very effective) game plan.

You could maybe get away with it in some positions, but the outhalf especially has to be able to play to the gameplan
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ronk
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Re: Tour to NZ 2022

Post by ronk »

LeRouxIsPHat wrote: June 14th, 2022, 3:55 pm
ronk wrote: June 14th, 2022, 3:35 pm Loughman is in the Ireland squad.

Are the people who were suggesting that Healy be left at home seriously considering that Loughman should be 17 for the NZ tests?
I think you need to be more realistic about where Healy's game is at the moment. Clearly we would have had his decline in mind when moving Porter across and the Leinster coaches didn't put him on until the dying moments of the game on Friday even though Porter was hardly ripping up any trees. He's gone from being first choice for Ireland to not even being trusted off the bench for his club when it matters.
I think we just flat out disagree. I'm talking about the Cian Healy who played 25 games this season (6 tries) including 7 internationals and starts in March against England and Scotland.

I like Loughman, I've been as positive about him as maybe anyone on this board. He's uncapped and a little bit lucky to be on the tour. He's not Ireland's number 2 loosehead.
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Oldschool
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Re: Tour to NZ 2022

Post by Oldschool »

The clock has to ticking on HB too.
Most of the times he didn't feature in the Leinster 23 were because he was injured, ie the selectors didn't have the option of picking him.
HB is in the category of "he is considered a great player until he puts a string of games together"
History is being repeated here prior RWC 2019, not going to bore you with the details but keep "sick notes" in mind.
On a positive note the timing of this tour is excellent.
It's serious exposure to one of the best teams in the world just a year out from the next RWC.
Added to the exposure of the provincial teams to the SA super clubs and Ireland will be competitively much better prepared than for any previous RWC.
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Re: Tour to NZ 2022

Post by Oldschool »

McCloskey is an interesting non selection.
The one thing that Ireland need badly and that McCloskey brings to the team is Leadership.
In particular big match temperament Leadership.
He has consistently raised his game when playing for Ireland, quite close to being MOM even.
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ronk
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Re: Tour to NZ 2022

Post by ronk »

Oldschool wrote: June 14th, 2022, 4:53 pm McCloskey is an interesting non selection.
The one thing that Ireland need badly and that McCloskey brings to the team is Leadership.
In particular big match temperament Leadership.
He has consistently raised his game when playing for Ireland, quite close to being MOM even.
Faz doesn't care for leadership. He hasn't selected Molony or Ruddock. Or JOD or Alan O'Connor. Or Ross Byrne.
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paddyor
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Re: Tour to NZ 2022

Post by paddyor »

TMC wrote: June 14th, 2022, 3:00 pm Think Byrne fortunate to go and bringing Healy the wrong call. Healy looks jaded, flogging him makes no sense. A summer off DJing at the festivals to recharge his batteries would have been the better option IMO. Molony has had a better season than Treadwell, his lineout work and passing at a different level. The TH Lock will be Henderson if fit, suspect McCarthy is next up and will start the Maori games and Ryan is an in case of emergency option so don’t really see the argument for Treadwell ahead of him. I don’t think the Treadwell as a TH lock argument holds water as Treadwell tends to replace AOC not Henderson most of the time for Ulster. If they want another TH Lock bring Kleyn who actually does the needful. Central contracts probably play a part but on current form neither Murray or Carbery should be going. Think over the course of the season Ross Byrne entitled to feel a small bit hacked off, couple of high profile mistakes in pressure games of late may have cost him. His style of play doesn’t suit what Ireland are trying to do but both he and Burns have been in much better form IMO than Carbery who is very lucky to be going as he is playing like a drain. Cooney’s ship has sailed for whatever reason, but not bringing Doak is a mistake from a development point of view.
In the centre think McCloskey is desperately unfortunate, he losses out to Frawley’s versatility and Byrne's anointed status with the management, that’s the wrong call. Harry cant oust his brother, if they are bringing a "development 10" then go with Frawley and bring McCloskey who must wonder how well does he have to play to get a fair crack of the whip. He has arguably been the best 12 in Ireland over the course of the season, management have really missed an opportunity not picking him, think a combination of him playing inside Robbie well worth having a look at before the RWC. His hands are excellent and his offloading out of the tackle is top drawer which would be an asset to the style of play they’re looking to implement and he always makes inroads. For me, he makes those around him look better players, that’s the sign of a real class act.
Anyway best of luck to them, first game is in a fortnight, it’s not much time.
We need another OH and Frawley hasn't started there this season I think. Not sure we need a 3rd boshing 12. Frawley offers an alternative that none of the others do.
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Re: Tour to NZ 2022

Post by jezzer »

So, apart from wanting to win the series, i guess Faz is hoping to have a better idea ahead of the RWC of:

His backup props
His best lock partnership
His best #20
His backup SH
His backup OH
His backup FB

Everything else can be planned for or juggled on a horses for courses basis.

Based on that, i can see the reasoning behind almost all of the picks. Conor Murray prob has to go to appease his central contract and for provincial balance and maybe because the alternatives haven't been as stellar as they promised.
McCloskey is unlucky based on production, but he's stuck as strictly a 12 and - given he's likely to be a bench option at best for big future tests - guys with no positional flexibility are kind of redundant.

It's obvious why Harry Byrne is going but i secretly hope that he's going to be the understudy to Frawley at 3rd choice 10 and not vice versa. I doubt that's how Faz sees it tho. To be fair, Frawley is maybe a little stiff-hipped for 10, but I'm still a believer given the options. I don't personally believe HB is ready and it's actually hurting his development to keep pushing him up the curve.

Baird is maybe there as they look towards tactical bench options. Between him and Timoney, 4/5/6/7/8 are covered.
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Re: Tour to NZ 2022

Post by riocard911 »

LeRouxIsPHat wrote: June 14th, 2022, 3:45 pm I think they like Treadwell's power. Same with Heffernan, neither of them are particularly solid but if you're going that far down the depth chart then they can both come up with a big hit or strong carry and that will justify the selections. Not sure how bad Ahern's injury is but I wonder if he'd have been picked if he was fit? I expected a few more developmental selections so maybe not.

I don't agree about McCloskey. The four first choice centres are set in stone so I don't see a point in picking another specialist, there's way more value in picking a versatile player that you can groom for a World Cup squad and Frawley offers something different as well.

The outhalf situation doesn't look great but is there any combination that would have? Carty is injured and Burns isn't good enough and doesn't kick for Ulster. As much as I rate Ross he hasn't played well for Ireland, had a mare in the CC final, had a poor game last week, and doesn't suit our style of play so I can't really see an argument for picking him. Even if you don't think Harry is third choice (and maybe that's actually Frawley) surely it makes sense to try one of them against the Maori rather than wasting it on someone older? If it goes well then that's great news, if it doesn't then at least you've found out more about them and it'll clarify plans for next season and give them things to work on.

In the circumstances I can understand why we picked Joey but I just hope that all bets are off from next season and that if he keeps performing like his most recent games then there's no reason he should even be ahead of guys like Burns or Ross who haven't been good enough in the past.
That'd be pretty much how I see the current state of succession planning at outhalf too.
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Re: Tour to NZ 2022

Post by Dave Cahill »

Its a very good squad I think. The only players who could feel a wee bit hard done by are Ross Byrne and Nathan Doak I reckon, but I can see why they aren't there.
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Re: Tour to NZ 2022

Post by Ruckedtobits »

I'm delighted that Tom O'Toole got in as his scrum & maul performance against the Stormers warranted selection on it's own. I've watched Loughman since his early days in Leinster and I believe that a Tour with Fogarty, Healy, and Porter working with him on his technique will bring him on a lot.

He has excellent hands and passing skills (he was à centre prior to moving into the forwards) and is a good tackler on both shoulders. These are the sort of attributes that Farrell counts as important in selecting Squads. If players don't have these qualities it takes a lot of coaching time in National Camp to work on them

I absolutely consider this to be the first of possibly 5 Squads that Faz will name prior to playing World Cup games. He has developed Ireland's Game Plan progressively since the English 6N game last season. He knows how the French & Scots will play. He has a fairly clear idea how Rassie's SA will play. Nobody yet knows where Jones will lead England. By the end of July, Faz will know how NZ want to play us.

It will be a tough Tour, but an invaluable experience to the Squad, the majority of whom will arrive licking their wounds rather than 'c~*k-a-hoop'. That's definitely a better frame of mind for an Irish Touring Party.
Last edited by Ruckedtobits on June 14th, 2022, 6:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tour to NZ 2022

Post by LeRouxIsPHat »

jezzer wrote: June 14th, 2022, 5:41 pm

It's obvious why Harry Byrne is going but i secretly hope that he's going to be the understudy to Frawley at 3rd choice 10 and not vice versa.
Nobody tell jezzer a secret, he can't even keep his own :lol:
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Re: Tour to NZ 2022

Post by LeRouxIsPHat »

ronk wrote: June 14th, 2022, 4:46 pm
LeRouxIsPHat wrote: June 14th, 2022, 3:55 pm
ronk wrote: June 14th, 2022, 3:35 pm Loughman is in the Ireland squad.

Are the people who were suggesting that Healy be left at home seriously considering that Loughman should be 17 for the NZ tests?
I think you need to be more realistic about where Healy's game is at the moment. Clearly we would have had his decline in mind when moving Porter across and the Leinster coaches didn't put him on until the dying moments of the game on Friday even though Porter was hardly ripping up any trees. He's gone from being first choice for Ireland to not even being trusted off the bench for his club when it matters.
I think we just flat out disagree. I'm talking about the Cian Healy who played 25 games this season (6 tries) including 7 internationals and starts in March against England and Scotland.

I like Loughman, I've been as positive about him as maybe anyone on this board. He's uncapped and a little bit lucky to be on the tour. He's not Ireland's number 2 loosehead.
I'm not talking up Loughman btw. Maybe that's a moot point because there aren't many options but I don't think he's demanding the jersey, the problem is I don't think Healy is either.

I don't really think appearances is something that justifies you backing Healy. For a start, how did the scrum go in that start against England? Secondly, would you use appearances as a reason to pick Joey? He's one of my favourite players but Healy's decline is undeniable unfortunately. Personally I don't think there's much chance he'll make the World Cup and don't really think he'll be in the first choice 23 for Leinster by the end of next season. I'd love if he proves me wrong but you'd have to be blind not to see that as being a possibility based on the last few months. You can be as optimistic as you like but the reluctance to bring him on last Friday spoke volumes.
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Re: Tour to NZ 2022

Post by Oldschool »

ronk wrote: June 14th, 2022, 5:00 pm
Oldschool wrote: June 14th, 2022, 4:53 pm McCloskey is an interesting non selection.
The one thing that Ireland need badly and that McCloskey brings to the team is Leadership.
In particular big match temperament Leadership.
He has consistently raised his game when playing for Ireland, quite close to being MOM even.
Faz doesn't care for leadership. He hasn't selected Molony or Ruddock. Or JOD or Alan O'Connor. Or Ross Byrne.
Being honest I wouldn't have selected McCloskey, or any of the others mentioned except maybe Ruddock.
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Re: Tour to NZ 2022

Post by hugonaut »

Dave Cahill wrote: June 14th, 2022, 6:04 pm Its a very good squad I think. The only players who could feel a wee bit hard done by are Ross Byrne and Nathan Doak I reckon, but I can see why they aren't there.
Yeah, I think it's a pretty good squad. The biggish number is enough to get people's hopes up, both players and fans. Obviously it's tough on Molony and O'Donoghue and McCloskey who have had big seasons, are in their prime but are still on the outside looking in.

Treadwell is a better athlete than Molony, probably not as good a player - close call there. Timoney has played an awful lot more at openside [17 starts] than O'Donoghue [4 starts], and AF is looking for an openside to back up JVDF, not a backrow jack-of-all trades in a 40-strong squad. McCloskey has the same problem he has had since 2017 - Aki & Henshaw.

If these lads played loosehead or hooker or outhalf to the same level as they play their actual positions, they'd be in the squad. You know what I mean – in terms of depth we're very solid at some positions, pretty ordinary in others.
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Re: Tour to NZ 2022

Post by jezzer »

LeRouxIsPHat wrote: June 14th, 2022, 6:24 pm
jezzer wrote: June 14th, 2022, 5:41 pm

It's obvious why Harry Byrne is going but i secretly hope that he's going to be the understudy to Frawley at 3rd choice 10 and not vice versa.
Nobody tell jezzer a secret, he can't even keep his own :lol:
You may have a point there!
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Re: Tour to NZ 2022

Post by jezzer »

hugonaut wrote: June 14th, 2022, 9:56 pm
Dave Cahill wrote: June 14th, 2022, 6:04 pm Its a very good squad I think. The only players who could feel a wee bit hard done by are Ross Byrne and Nathan Doak I reckon, but I can see why they aren't there.
Yeah, I think it's a pretty good squad. The biggish number is enough to get people's hopes up, both players and fans. Obviously it's tough on Molony and O'Donoghue and McCloskey who have had big seasons, are in their prime but are still on the outside looking in.

Treadwell is a better athlete than Molony, probably not as good a player - close call there. Timoney has played an awful lot more at openside [17 starts] than O'Donoghue [4 starts], and AF is looking for an openside to back up JVDF, not a backrow jack-of-all trades in a 40-strong squad. McCloskey has the same problem he has had since 2017 - Aki & Henshaw.

If these lads played loosehead or hooker or outhalf to the same level as they play their actual positions, they'd be in the squad. You know what I mean – in terms of depth we're very solid at some positions, pretty ordinary in others.
Timoney also has a very similar game to JVDF, so the switch is fairly seamless.
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