Tour to NZ 2022

[Morf]

Thinking about the tour, did anything really change wrt the pecking order for various positions. Probably Treadwell as 4th choice lock and maybe Frawley but everyone else is as you were really. Loughman and Scannell came in and did a good job but they're like 4th or 5th choice in their position. McCloskey is 3rd choice 12 etc. I don't think anyone ruled themselves out of future plans which is something Farrell said at the start of the tour.

Prendergast maybe didn't do enough as I think we're stacked at 6 and the opening is for a 3rd 7. Would he have toured if Connors was fit or Kendellan a year older?

Barid is the odd one out maybe. Travelled as a backrow and used as a sub lock in both Maori games having previously been 4th choice lock. Seems to have been supplanted by MacCarthy at Leinster too.

It's a good position to be in that you can lose 3 from your first choice 15/23 and still win a series like that. Will likely be the same 23 as started first test with Henderson and Kelleher to come in either to start or bench for SA. Maybe Earls stays on the bench and captains vs Fiji for his ton.

It doesn't seem like Harry Byrne and his fitness can be trusted at this point. Not much point bringing an injured bolter.

[Oldschoolsocks]

Thinking about the tour, did anything really change wrt the pecking order for various positions. Probably Treadwell as 4th choice lock and maybe Frawley but everyone else is as you were really. Loughman and Scannell came in and did a good job but they're like 4th or 5th choice in their position. McCloskey is 3rd choice 12 etc. I don't think anyone ruled themselves out of future plans which is something Farrell said at the start of the tour.

Prendergast maybe didn't do enough as I think we're stacked at 6 and the opening is for a 3rd 7. Would he have toured if Connors was fit or Kendellan a year older?

Barid is the odd one out maybe. Travelled as a backrow and used as a sub lock in both Maori games having previously been 4th choice lock. Seems to have been supplanted by MacCarthy at Leinster too.

It's a good position to be in that you can lose 3 from your first choice 15/23 and still win a series like that. Will likely be the same 23 as started first test with Henderson and Kelleher to come in either to start or bench for SA. Maybe Earls stays on the bench and captains vs Fiji for his ton.

Maybe it’s
Bundee and Ronnie in the centres with Ringer number 2 13
Mack Hansen has elevated a bit too
Not sure Church has much left in the tank neither

[paddyor]

Thinking about the tour, did anything really change wrt the pecking order for various positions. Probably Treadwell as 4th choice lock and maybe Frawley but everyone else is as you were really. Loughman and Scannell came in and did a good job but they're like 4th or 5th choice in their position. McCloskey is 3rd choice 12 etc. I don't think anyone ruled themselves out of future plans which is something Farrell said at the start of the tour.

Prendergast maybe didn't do enough as I think we're stacked at 6 and the opening is for a 3rd 7. Would he have toured if Connors was fit or Kendellan a year older?

Barid is the odd one out maybe. Travelled as a backrow and used as a sub lock in both Maori games having previously been 4th choice lock. Seems to have been supplanted by MacCarthy at Leinster too.

It's a good position to be in that you can lose 3 from your first choice 15/23 and still win a series like that. Will likely be the same 23 as started first test with Henderson and Kelleher to come in either to start or bench for SA. Maybe Earls stays on the bench and captains vs Fiji for his ton.

Maybe it’s
Bundee and Ronnie in the centres with Ringer number 2 13
Mack Hansen has elevated a bit too
Not sure Church has much left in the tank neither

I'm inlcined to Dave Cahills view that it's Bundee +1 in the centres so that was always a live possibility. Thought Church added value when he came in the 2nd and 3rd tests, whether he's done will tell over the course of the season. Hansen came in to the series as the holder of the jersey and looks set to keep it is all I'm saying.

[The Doc]

I agree that showing your hand can have negative consequences down the line. But a test series win is a real, tangible achievement in itself. We've built up the World Cup QF too much in this country. We will win one sooner or later.

As for what NZ will take from the series, we'll know we've really got under their skin if they go and put an Irish citizen in charge.

I think that was the mistake we made last time. We thought we could not show our hand and bring a game plan to RWC while every other team had changed

From what I've picked up it seems they weren't worried about showing their hand cause they know they will have to alter the game plan going into the RWC no matter what. I thought that was encouraging.



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[ronk]

Thinking about the tour, did anything really change wrt the pecking order for various positions.

Change happens between tours, not so much on them. We rotated very little between tests. We have the usual 3 central contracts for 2 starting positions at lock and centre.

There are selection calls at 2 and 6 that may depend on the opposition. Back 3 may get more interesting as players return to form.

Otherwise we don't have the depth to have a selection debate.

[jezzer]

We don't need for the starting team to change. It's brilliant as it is. We needed a bit of depth development and we got some of that.

The great English, Kiwi, OZ or Saffers teams that won big - you can rattle off the team even now because they stuck to a winning formula. Why would we need to be any different?

[Ruckedtobits]

I agree that showing your hand can have negative consequences down the line. But a test series win is a real, tangible achievement in itself. We've built up the World Cup QF too much in this country. We will win one sooner or later.

As for what NZ will take from the series, we'll know we've really got under their skin if they go and put an Irish citizen in charge.

I think that was the mistake we made last time. We thought we could not show our hand and bring a game plan to RWC while every other team had changed

From what I've picked up it seems they weren't worried about showing their hand cause they know they will have to alter the game plan going into the RWC no matter what. I thought that was encouraging.

Ruckedtobits wrote

There are still a couple of fundamental flaws or impediments to our prospects of success in a World Cup:

1. The Tournament is played at the wrong time of the Season for NH countries;
2. The Pools are determined too far in advance to ensure a balanced Draw
3. The importance, both financially and emotionally, of the 6N means we have to peak twice in 6 months.

I appreciate these factors also impact Wales, Scotland and Italy and to a lesser extent England & France. IMO, all three of these factors give the SH teams underlying advantages in World Cup competitions. Can they be overcome or turned to our advantage? Very difficult to see how.

Thornley, in IT article today, mentions a further factor which may play into the hands of the bigger nations I.e. the impact of the 12-day concussion protocol which will probably mean that original Squads will have to be supplemented during the Tournament.

[hugonaut]

We don't need for the starting team to change. It's brilliant as it is. We needed a bit of depth development and we got some of that.

The great English, Kiwi, OZ or Saffers teams that won big - you can rattle off the team even now because they stuck to a winning formula. Why would we need to be any different?

100%. Look at the teamsheets for the RWC19 Boks or RWC15 All Blacks - so much consistency in selection. The respective coaches had a couple of peccadillos in their selections [Seve Hansen had two backrows on the bench and no locks in 2015, Rassie had a 6-2 split in 2019] but they knew what their best team was and rolled it out time after time in order to win games.

The ABs made one change in their knock-out games, when Wyatt Crockett was ruled out with a groin injury and they brought in Joe Moody. The Boks made one change in their knockout games when they had to replace Kolbe with Nkosi for the semi-final. And that was it.

The RWC23 squad is 33 strong; we had a squad of 40 selected for the recent tour, eventually 43 went out. We have to cut 10 players out of the squad that went to NZ, probably even more than that because there are a couple of players who were too injured to be named on the panel [Kelleher, for example].

To be pragmatic, it comes down to a matchday 23 + 10 players, a number of whom are going to be there on the basis of position - your third hooker, your third tighthead, your third scrum-half etc.

[Flash Gordon]

Some interesting selections in Warren Gatland's current Lions squad!

WARREN GATLAND'S LIONS SQUAD
15. Freddie Steward (England)
14. Josh Adams (Wales)
13. Robbie Henshaw (Ireland)
12. Owen Farrell (England)
11. James Lowe (Ireland)
10. Johnny Sexton (Ireland)
9. Jamison Gibson-Park (Ireland)

1. Ellis Genge (England)
2. Jamie George (England)
3. Tadhg Furlong (Ireland)
4. Tadhg Beirne (Ireland)
5. James Ryan (Ireland)
6. Courtney Lawes (England)
7. Josh van der Flier (Ireland)
8. Caelan Doris (Ireland)

REPLACEMENTS: Dan Sheehan, Andrew Porter, Zander Fagerson, Maro Itoje, Taulupe Faletau, Ali Price, Marcus Smith, Jack Nowell.

[Ruckedtobits]

Don't let Lions near them or we'll end up with 4/5 with career threatening injuries or a lost 2/3 seasons. Jeremy Davidson, Keith Wood, Sean O'Brien, Jack McGrath etc

[Flash Gordon]

Don't let Lions near them or we'll end up with 4/5 with career threatening injuries or a lost 2/3 seasons. Jeremy Davidson, Keith Wood, Sean O'Brien, Jack McGrath etc

It's just a debate topic, clearly there's no Lions Tour but interesting to see who is at the top of the pile and who isn't! I wonder does Gatland regret not picking Sexton?

[RoboProp]

Don't let Lions near them or we'll end up with 4/5 with career threatening injuries or a lost 2/3 seasons. Jeremy Davidson, Keith Wood, Sean O'Brien, Jack McGrath etc

It's just a debate topic, clearly there's no Lions Tour but interesting to see who is at the top of the pile and who isn't! I wonder does Gatland regret not picking Sexton?

I'd say part of Gatland has to be thinking now that he could have been the difference between drawing the series and a win. No way of knowing, but if Johnny went on that Lions tour then we probably don't win this series just gone as they'd have flogged him

[Flash Gordon]

Don't let Lions near them or we'll end up with 4/5 with career threatening injuries or a lost 2/3 seasons. Jeremy Davidson, Keith Wood, Sean O'Brien, Jack McGrath etc

It's just a debate topic, clearly there's no Lions Tour but interesting to see who is at the top of the pile and who isn't! I wonder does Gatland regret not picking Sexton?

I'd say part of Gatland has to be thinking now that he could have been the difference between drawing the series and a win. No way of knowing, but if Johnny went on that Lions tour then we probably don't win this series just gone as they'd have flogged him

Oh completely. James Ryan too with his concussion issues. I think with Sexton orchestrating and leading in South Africa things might have been different - can't be hard to beat ZERO tries from outside backs can it?

[the spoofer]

Don't let Lions near them or we'll end up with 4/5 with career threatening injuries or a lost 2/3 seasons. Jeremy Davidson, Keith Wood, Sean O'Brien, Jack McGrath etc

Fully agree. The Lions should be a thing of the past. Don't let anyone tell you that a Lions win would surpass what we witnessed last Saturday.

[riocard911]

Don't let Lions near them or we'll end up with 4/5 with career threatening injuries or a lost 2/3 seasons. Jeremy Davidson, Keith Wood, Sean O'Brien, Jack McGrath etc

Fully agree. The Lions should be a thing of the past. Don't let anyone tell you that a Lions win would surpass what we witnessed last Saturday.

100%!!!!!!

[paddyor]

We don't need for the starting team to change. It's brilliant as it is. We needed a bit of depth development and we got some of that.

The great English, Kiwi, OZ or Saffers teams that won big - you can rattle off the team even now because they stuck to a winning formula. Why would we need to be any different?

Oh I agree. I think ronk is right there might be some change up at 2 and 6 but the 23 is mostly the same. Though I think both Sheehan and POM have done enough over the 6N and this tour to be considered no 1 in their positions. Ditto Beirne.

Farrells dropped a good few players(Toner, Scannell, Cooney, Byrne, Burns, etc), but this feels like the first stretch with little change in personnel.

[Ruckedtobits]

I'm posting partially because I find it extraordinary that our success against NZ, less than a week ago, has slipped so far down the 'Active' list so quickly, but also because, with at least 10 internationals between now and the announcement of the RWC23 Squad, I find it almost inconceivable that Faz won't uncover an unexpected gem before then;

# Stockdale returns with a hugely educated left boot to challenge Lowe;
# Balacoune starts new season with a try a match by the end of October;
# Boyle, coming on as 10th min sub for Leinster, gives Fagerson flying lessons in URC game;
# Gavin Thornbury, after five starring performances for Connacht, selected for Autumn games;
# Crowley sparks Munster backline to five tries in URC game....

....Continue ad infinitum.....

[dropkick]

I'm posting partially because I find it extraordinary that our success against NZ, less than a week ago, has slipped so far down the 'Active' list so quickly, but also because, with at least 10 internationals between now and the announcement of the RWC23 Squad, I find it almost inconceivable that Faz won't uncover an unexpected gem before then;

# Stockdale returns with a hugely educated left boot to challenge Lowe;
# Balacoune starts new season with a try a match by the end of October;
# Boyle, coming on as 10th min sub for Leinster, gives Fagerson flying lessons in URC game;
# Gavin Thornbury, after five starring performances for Connacht, selected for Autumn games;
# Crowley sparks Munster backline to five tries in URC game....

....Continue ad infinitum.....

There will be a new contenders no doubt especially with the success of the U20s starting from 2019. Not just hyped players but you have the likes of Hansen and Keenan in previous seasons coming in under the radar. Most will be earmarked for after the world cup but I think there's room for one or two.

[paddyor]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Irel ... _Australia

33 man squad to Oz

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Rugb ... ds#Ireland

31 to Japan.

3 changes, Carty for Byrne

Only 4 locks. Kleyn for Roux/Toner

Kilcoyne for McGrath

So that's 90% of the squad from the previous Oz tour. 2 more spots this time which you'd imagine will go to sh and prop.Was there a rule you had to have 4 hookers last time?

[jezzer]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Irel ... _Australia

33 man squad to Oz

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Rugb ... ds#Ireland

31 to Japan.

3 changes, Carty for Byrne

Only 4 locks. Kleyn for Roux/Toner

Kilcoyne for McGrath

So that's 90% of the squad from the previous Oz tour. 2 more spots this time which you'd imagine will go to sh and prop.Was there a rule you had to have 4 hookers last time?

You're thinking of Vegas...

Wow, 90% retention is even higher than i would have guessed.