Tour to NZ 2022
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- the spoofer
- Shane Horgan
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- Joined: February 17th, 2006, 5:35 pm
- Location: Leinster West
Re: Tour to NZ 2022
Frawley has to be disappointed. Carberys agreement to move to Munster must contain a clause that he’s in every Irish match day 23 when fit.
Re: Tour to NZ 2022
While I think Frawley has been much better than Joey on tour, hardly much of a surprise that we're not giving a guy a test debut in a series decider against the All Blacks is it?
Re: Tour to NZ 2022
I thought Larmour did enough to claim the 23 jersey ahead of Earls. While Earls has experience (98?) caps, Larmour has a not too shabby 30+. Is it his unpredictability that's swinging it? I can’t see Earls making the 23 at RWC with everyone fit. Even Larmour might not.
Re: Tour to NZ 2022
IRELAND v New Zealand
SKY Stadium, Wellington, Saturday 16th July, 2022
KO: 8.05am Irish Time
15. Hugo Keenan (Leinster/UCD) 22 caps
14. Mack Hansen (Connacht) 5 caps
13. Robbie Henshaw (Leinster/Buccaneers) 59 caps
12. Bundee Aki (Connacht/Galwegians) 39 caps
11. James Lowe (Leinster) 14 caps
10. Johnny Sexton (Leinster/St Mary’s College) 107 caps CAPTAIN
9. Jamison Gibson Park (Leinster) 19 caps
1. Andrew Porter (Leinster/UCD) 45 caps
2. Dan Sheehan (Leinster/Lansdowne) 9 caps
3. Tadhg Furlong (Leinster/Clontarf) 59 caps
4. Tadhg Beirne (Munster/Lansdowne) 32 caps
5. James Ryan (Leinster/UCD) 45 caps
6. Peter O’Mahony (Munster/Cork Constitution) 86 caps
7. Josh van der Flier (Leinster/UCD) 42 caps
8. Caelan Doris (Leinster/St Mary’s College) 19 caps
Replacements
16. Rob Herring (Ulster/Ballynahinch) 27 caps
17. Cian Healy (Leinster/Clontarf) 117 caps
18. Finlay Bealham (Connacht/Buccaneers) 24 caps
19. Kieran Treadwell (Ulster/Ballymena) 7 caps
20. Jack Conan (Leinster/Old Belvedere) 29 caps
21. Conor Murray (Munster/Garryowen) 98 caps
22. Joey Carbery (Munster/Clontarf) 34 caps
23. Keith Earls (Munster/Young Munster) 97 caps
SKY Stadium, Wellington, Saturday 16th July, 2022
KO: 8.05am Irish Time
15. Hugo Keenan (Leinster/UCD) 22 caps
14. Mack Hansen (Connacht) 5 caps
13. Robbie Henshaw (Leinster/Buccaneers) 59 caps
12. Bundee Aki (Connacht/Galwegians) 39 caps
11. James Lowe (Leinster) 14 caps
10. Johnny Sexton (Leinster/St Mary’s College) 107 caps CAPTAIN
9. Jamison Gibson Park (Leinster) 19 caps
1. Andrew Porter (Leinster/UCD) 45 caps
2. Dan Sheehan (Leinster/Lansdowne) 9 caps
3. Tadhg Furlong (Leinster/Clontarf) 59 caps
4. Tadhg Beirne (Munster/Lansdowne) 32 caps
5. James Ryan (Leinster/UCD) 45 caps
6. Peter O’Mahony (Munster/Cork Constitution) 86 caps
7. Josh van der Flier (Leinster/UCD) 42 caps
8. Caelan Doris (Leinster/St Mary’s College) 19 caps
Replacements
16. Rob Herring (Ulster/Ballynahinch) 27 caps
17. Cian Healy (Leinster/Clontarf) 117 caps
18. Finlay Bealham (Connacht/Buccaneers) 24 caps
19. Kieran Treadwell (Ulster/Ballymena) 7 caps
20. Jack Conan (Leinster/Old Belvedere) 29 caps
21. Conor Murray (Munster/Garryowen) 98 caps
22. Joey Carbery (Munster/Clontarf) 34 caps
23. Keith Earls (Munster/Young Munster) 97 caps
Just because a post upsets you, that doesn’t mean that it is wrong. People have different views in all aspects of life, this is a key ingredient to an interesting conversation.
Re: Tour to NZ 2022
Particularly disappointed for Larmour given he hasn't got a sniff of the test 23 even with Conway, Baloucoune and Stockdale all injured. He has been excellent since his return from injury and definitely a tough choice between he and Earls for 23 - perhaps the injury he seemed to be carrying at the end of the Maori game wasn't worth riskingdesperado wrote: ↑July 14th, 2022, 8:53 am I thought Larmour did enough to claim the 23 jersey ahead of Earls. While Earls has experience (98?) caps, Larmour has a not too shabby 30+. Is it his unpredictability that's swinging it? I can’t see Earls making the 23 at RWC with everyone fit. Even Larmour might not.
- the spoofer
- Shane Horgan
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- Joined: February 17th, 2006, 5:35 pm
- Location: Leinster West
Re: Tour to NZ 2022
The issue is that we know that we are not losing anything by putting someone,anyone, else in. I'd have Billy Burns in there ahead of him.
- the spoofer
- Shane Horgan
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- Joined: February 17th, 2006, 5:35 pm
- Location: Leinster West
Re: Tour to NZ 2022
Think he is injured.Colmodon wrote: ↑July 14th, 2022, 9:04 amParticularly disappointed for Larmour given he hasn't got a sniff of the test 23 even with Conway, Baloucoune and Stockdale all injured. He has been excellent since his return from injury and definitely a tough choice between he and Earls for 23 - perhaps the injury he seemed to be carrying at the end of the Maori game wasn't worth riskingdesperado wrote: ↑July 14th, 2022, 8:53 am I thought Larmour did enough to claim the 23 jersey ahead of Earls. While Earls has experience (98?) caps, Larmour has a not too shabby 30+. Is it his unpredictability that's swinging it? I can’t see Earls making the 23 at RWC with everyone fit. Even Larmour might not.
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- Rob Kearney
- Posts: 8116
- Joined: April 10th, 2011, 10:23 am
Re: Tour to NZ 2022
Frawley would certainly have provided a better range of cover but, after 80 mins on Tuesday, they were never selecting him for such a game. Earls has doubled-up at every level up to Lions Tests and it's nothing new to him.
Larmour would be a riskier option - potentially bigger gains balanced by bigger defensive risks.
I certainly trust Farrell's judgement in this regards.
Larmour would be a riskier option - potentially bigger gains balanced by bigger defensive risks.
I certainly trust Farrell's judgement in this regards.
- the spoofer
- Shane Horgan
- Posts: 4329
- Joined: February 17th, 2006, 5:35 pm
- Location: Leinster West
Re: Tour to NZ 2022
If we are using defensive risk in the Larmour case, we need to include it in the Carbery one. He's not even a speed bump.Ruckedtobits wrote: ↑July 14th, 2022, 9:09 am Frawley would certainly have provided a better range of cover but, after 80 mins on Tuesday, they were never selecting him for such a game. Earls has doubled-up at every level up to Lions Tests and it's nothing new to him.
Larmour would be a riskier option - potentially bigger gains balanced by bigger defensive risks.
I certainly trust Farrell's judgement in this regards.
Re: Tour to NZ 2022
I think the the whole selection process is a little disappointing.desperado wrote: ↑July 14th, 2022, 8:53 am I thought Larmour did enough to claim the 23 jersey ahead of Earls. While Earls has experience (98?) caps, Larmour has a not too shabby 30+. Is it his unpredictability that's swinging it? I can’t see Earls making the 23 at RWC with everyone fit. Even Larmour might not.
I had an idea that Earls was going to be selected for the bench when he was selected at centre for the Māori match, as the coaches want him to cover the back line.
What annoys me about the selection, and it is something that has always been the case for Ireland when they play any of the tier one nation, is that each game is viewed as a must win rather than an opportunity to blood young/new players.
Each change across the 3 tests have been injury/illness related, with no players from the mid week games being awarded for their performances, and even the players on the bench have failed to be given starts.
Just because a post upsets you, that doesn’t mean that it is wrong. People have different views in all aspects of life, this is a key ingredient to an interesting conversation.
Re: Tour to NZ 2022
If you read some of the comments on here at half time of the first test you wouldn’t believe that some of the posters (not allowed to name names I will get reported) would find it acceptable to throw in a load of other players. Maude Flanders wouldn’t have been in it with some of the overreaction from these posters.
I thought we might have changed up one of the backrow because we have good depth that wouldn’t weaken us (imo) and add a bit of freshness but they were absolutely superb as a unit last week. Also suspected they would change up the centre partnership but that has happened by an enforced change in the end.
Amazing that the pack will be the same in all 3 tests and only 2 changes in the backline one due to concussion. We criticise our s&c whenever we get a chance so well done to Jason Cowman and team on keeping the lads in peak shape.
I thought we might have changed up one of the backrow because we have good depth that wouldn’t weaken us (imo) and add a bit of freshness but they were absolutely superb as a unit last week. Also suspected they would change up the centre partnership but that has happened by an enforced change in the end.
Amazing that the pack will be the same in all 3 tests and only 2 changes in the backline one due to concussion. We criticise our s&c whenever we get a chance so well done to Jason Cowman and team on keeping the lads in peak shape.
"Horrocks went one way, Taylor the other and I was left holding the bloody hyphen!"
~The Late Great Mick English
~The Late Great Mick English
Re: Tour to NZ 2022
Double post
"Horrocks went one way, Taylor the other and I was left holding the bloody hyphen!"
~The Late Great Mick English
~The Late Great Mick English
Re: Tour to NZ 2022
I think this tour is more reminiscent of a Lions tour, in that the test is not about blooding peripheral players, it's about winning the series and to win the series we have to play the best players available. The Māori games are there for the periphery guys to gain invaluable experience and put themselves in the shopfront window. What has stood out for me is the absolute camaraderie in the Ireland camp, POM has touched upon this before how the atmosphere has been unlike any camp that he had been in previously. You can't put a price on what that does for a team when players are willing to do anything for the player beside them, and the team as a whole. Here's to hopefully more history being made this Saturday!munster#1 wrote: ↑July 14th, 2022, 9:31 amI think the the whole selection process is a little disappointing.desperado wrote: ↑July 14th, 2022, 8:53 am I thought Larmour did enough to claim the 23 jersey ahead of Earls. While Earls has experience (98?) caps, Larmour has a not too shabby 30+. Is it his unpredictability that's swinging it? I can’t see Earls making the 23 at RWC with everyone fit. Even Larmour might not.
I had an idea that Earls was going to be selected for the bench when he was selected at centre for the Māori match, as the coaches want him to cover the back line.
What annoys me about the selection, and it is something that has always been the case for Ireland when they play any of the tier one nation, is that each game is viewed as a must win rather than an opportunity to blood young/new players.
Each change across the 3 tests have been injury/illness related, with no players from the mid week games being awarded for their performances, and even the players on the bench have failed to be given starts.
Re: Tour to NZ 2022
It definitely looks like this was approached as win at all costs tour, which is really exciting, and I can guarantee that I will be roaring my head off on Saturday in support of the team, but I do feel at the same time that it is a wasted opportunity.RoboProp wrote: ↑July 14th, 2022, 10:00 amI think this tour is more reminiscent of a Lions tour, in that the test is not about blooding peripheral players, it's about winning the series and to win the series we have to play the best players available. The Māori games are there for the periphery guys to gain invaluable experience and put themselves in the shopfront window. What has stood out for me is the absolute camaraderie in the Ireland camp, POM has touched upon this before how the atmosphere has been unlike any camp that he had been in previously. You can't put a price on what that does for a team when players are willing to do anything for the player beside them, and the team as a whole. Here's to hopefully more history being made this Saturday!munster#1 wrote: ↑July 14th, 2022, 9:31 amI think the the whole selection process is a little disappointing.desperado wrote: ↑July 14th, 2022, 8:53 am I thought Larmour did enough to claim the 23 jersey ahead of Earls. While Earls has experience (98?) caps, Larmour has a not too shabby 30+. Is it his unpredictability that's swinging it? I can’t see Earls making the 23 at RWC with everyone fit. Even Larmour might not.
I had an idea that Earls was going to be selected for the bench when he was selected at centre for the Māori match, as the coaches want him to cover the back line.
What annoys me about the selection, and it is something that has always been the case for Ireland when they play any of the tier one nation, is that each game is viewed as a must win rather than an opportunity to blood young/new players.
Each change across the 3 tests have been injury/illness related, with no players from the mid week games being awarded for their performances, and even the players on the bench have failed to be given starts.
We are lacking clear depth past 1st and second choice in a number of positions, so it would have been great to expand that depth against a team at the level of the all blacks rather than the Maori ABs.
It would also have been good to see some rotation between the first and second choice players week to week.
Perhaps they will use the November internationals against SA and Aus to give players some real exposure and an opportunity.
Just because a post upsets you, that doesn’t mean that it is wrong. People have different views in all aspects of life, this is a key ingredient to an interesting conversation.
Re: Tour to NZ 2022
It's meant to be more like a RWC in some ways.
We probably won't know how well it worked for a while, maybe years after the RWC. Midweek matches have added rotation challenges and interest for everyone in the squad because of the way it's been stretched.
We've already seen how it's helped players like Treadwell. I think we exposed the depth in the squad and then built it up. It's been a challenge, we came out and lost the first 2 matches on tour and things looked bad, but they turned it around and even a loss day after tomorrow leaves a successful tour. And it leaves us mentally tougher, hopefully.
It's unlikely that any of these players will ever get a chance like this to come away with a series win in NZ. It's a lot harder to do back to back wins, just like it's a lot harder to win a RWC QF.
We probably won't know how well it worked for a while, maybe years after the RWC. Midweek matches have added rotation challenges and interest for everyone in the squad because of the way it's been stretched.
We've already seen how it's helped players like Treadwell. I think we exposed the depth in the squad and then built it up. It's been a challenge, we came out and lost the first 2 matches on tour and things looked bad, but they turned it around and even a loss day after tomorrow leaves a successful tour. And it leaves us mentally tougher, hopefully.
It's unlikely that any of these players will ever get a chance like this to come away with a series win in NZ. It's a lot harder to do back to back wins, just like it's a lot harder to win a RWC QF.
Re: Tour to NZ 2022
Are we even arguing whether this is a must win or not?
Fook sake, there's an away series win in NZ on the line. You do whatever you can to win. This is a massive test and a win would be a huge achievement.
NZ are going to really bring it, but theyre going to have to tread a fine line between intensity and discipline. When Kiwi confidence is high, they have that controlled focus that comes with a lot of high quality, winning reps in the bank against all-comers.
They're in somewhat virgin territory now that floating around the camp there are doubt, selection inconsistency, coaching pressure and a strong whiff of vincibility.
Historically/culturally you'd expect a reaction this week. In Laulala, Whitelock, Retallick, Smith and the Barretts you have a connection back to the era when NZ teams had few to no peers at turning up the heat when it counts, so there are plenty of guys there who can be talismanic.
But NZ players don't get a ton of reps against NH top defences and I think it shows. Their scores against us in recent games have been largely opportunistic ones that can't ever be repeated.
Two very evenly matched games so far where the scoreboard hasn't reflected the closeness.
I give us a very strong chance if we can score first and take the air out of their start.
Fook sake, there's an away series win in NZ on the line. You do whatever you can to win. This is a massive test and a win would be a huge achievement.
NZ are going to really bring it, but theyre going to have to tread a fine line between intensity and discipline. When Kiwi confidence is high, they have that controlled focus that comes with a lot of high quality, winning reps in the bank against all-comers.
They're in somewhat virgin territory now that floating around the camp there are doubt, selection inconsistency, coaching pressure and a strong whiff of vincibility.
Historically/culturally you'd expect a reaction this week. In Laulala, Whitelock, Retallick, Smith and the Barretts you have a connection back to the era when NZ teams had few to no peers at turning up the heat when it counts, so there are plenty of guys there who can be talismanic.
But NZ players don't get a ton of reps against NH top defences and I think it shows. Their scores against us in recent games have been largely opportunistic ones that can't ever be repeated.
Two very evenly matched games so far where the scoreboard hasn't reflected the closeness.
I give us a very strong chance if we can score first and take the air out of their start.
Re: Tour to NZ 2022
Totally agree they're using this as a RWC rehearsal - players to bring, in-camp activity, training schedules, important game time for the deeper squad, blood some new backups (a bit hampered by injury unfortunately), analyse how players carry themselves in camp, problem-solve, take instruction etc.ronk wrote: ↑July 14th, 2022, 10:21 am It's meant to be more like a RWC in some ways.
We probably won't know how well it worked for a while, maybe years after the RWC. Midweek matches have added rotation challenges and interest for everyone in the squad because of the way it's been stretched.
We've already seen how it's helped players like Treadwell. I think we exposed the depth in the squad and then built it up. It's been a challenge, we came out and lost the first 2 matches on tour and things looked bad, but they turned it around and even a loss day after tomorrow leaves a successful tour. And it leaves us mentally tougher, hopefully.
It's unlikely that any of these players will ever get a chance like this to come away with a series win in NZ. It's a lot harder to do back to back wins, just like it's a lot harder to win a RWC QF.
RWC prep is not so much about what team is picked for the third test, it's about leveraging the whole tour as a mini-RWC.
Re: Tour to NZ 2022
Think their emergence gives us genuine back row options against the meatier sides. Their power, strength and physicality would be useful against SA/FR for instance and would help compensate for us being slightly underpowered in the second row, relative to the real monster packs. Would be great to see one or both get a run against SA in the AIs or France/England in the 6N.Ruckedtobits wrote: ↑July 13th, 2022, 4:01 pm It's unlikely that either Nick Timoney or Gavin Coombes were on the mental list of five new faces that Andy Farrell hoped for in naming his Irish Squad for this NZ Tour. Both have been fairly regular selections for international Squad duty over the past two seasons and it's probable that either would have picked up a handful of international caps in that period, if they played for anybody but Ireland.
Both players were strong contenders for MOTM nominations in yesterday's victory against the NZ Maori team. Both have received multiple such awards at Provincial level. Another common feature is their try-scoring prowess. Although their physiques and skill-sets are quite different, they share a number of other characteristics:
- 80 minute players reknowned for their stamina;
Very strong ball-carriers, Coombes through power, Timoney through his pace;
Under-rated line-out ability;
Coombes has many similarities to the old Leicester and England captain, Dean Richards. He rumbles with enormous power, not quite as explosive as Billy Vunipola or Marcel Coetzee or as fast as Jack Conan or Kieran Reid, but very difficult to tackle or dispossess and skilled enough to be careful how he comes to ground in a position to optimise his presentation. Like Richards, he is bear-like in mauls with the strength to wrestle possession from opponents or smother them in a manner which prevents release and ensures a scrum turnover. He is probably a better lifter than jumper at line-out time and this is a particular skill which will prove even more valuable if he gets to start on the national team.
I'd love to see him come off the bench into the second-row at some point. I've long held the view that scrum intensity is greatly reduced in the final quarter when the front-row battle of wills has been settled by attrition & the referee's opinion. This is the game time in which results are decided and Coombes presence and ball carrying nose for the try line could be vital attributes in claiming victories.
Timoney brings a different collection of skills to the back-row. A former Seven's player with a Monaco series win in 2017 to his name, it's reputed that only two Ulster backs have bettered his time over 40m whilst he reigns supreme over 60m. He was always an excellent ball handler but in recent seasons he has increased his hand & arm strength to allow him become an even better poacher. At 6'2", he weights in close to 115kg (almost 18st) and tackles every ounce of that weight. He's most like David Wallace as a player and thus is probably the closest we have to a direct replacement for JVdF.
And that's the greatest difficulty for these two players face, the quality of the competition. Despite the early retirement of Dan Leavy and the relative loss of form of Rhys Ruddock, the quartet of Josh Van der Flyer, Peter O'Mahony, Caelin Doris & Jack Conan present such a wide range of talents & strong chemistry between them, that Farrell will probably only look beyond them if injury intervenes.
As they proved on Tuesday against the Maori, both Coombes & Timoney will produce their best as they grow in confidence as they increase their experience of the top level of the game. Farrell has to find the opportunities for these two to play for Ireland, either in November or during the 6 Nations. They're both ready for the experience and both have the ability to repay the investment in international game time, in spades
A panel wins tournaments and at times you need horses for courses rather than what we have had in Irish Rugby so often of the first XV being harder to get dropped from than get picked for. Farrell going for the series win this weekend which is absolutely right but I hope we see a bit more experimentation in the AIs/6Ns. IF he manages to win the series - huge if - then Farrell has every right to go to the IRFU and say look the AIs and the 6 Nations are going to be developmental, we'll be trying new combinations and it will likely impact on results. & they'd be fools not to back him.
Re: Tour to NZ 2022
Timoney is knocking on the door for sure. Who Coombes reminds me of is very young Heaslip. Both got a lot of early mileage out of big upright carries using their natural strength, fending and bumping tacklers, scoring handily from close range with power, showing some nascent offload game, defence impactful when it works but not the most mobile around the field.
Heaslip decided to redesign himself in the Kieran Read mould, physically and stylistically. I guess he did it in part because it meshed better with the other backrowers. But also i think he realized be needed to add a lot more stamina and versatility to his game.
Coombes probably doesn't need to really scale down his bulk. In fact, his broadness is prob a point of differentiation from the other options. But he does need to figure out a way to up his endurance and his involvements. Faz/Simon/Dogs/POC won't accept anything less if he wants to get starter minutes.
Heaslip decided to redesign himself in the Kieran Read mould, physically and stylistically. I guess he did it in part because it meshed better with the other backrowers. But also i think he realized be needed to add a lot more stamina and versatility to his game.
Coombes probably doesn't need to really scale down his bulk. In fact, his broadness is prob a point of differentiation from the other options. But he does need to figure out a way to up his endurance and his involvements. Faz/Simon/Dogs/POC won't accept anything less if he wants to get starter minutes.
Re: Tour to NZ 2022
Coombes for me is an interesting omission from Irish squads.jezzer wrote: ↑July 14th, 2022, 10:52 am Timoney is knocking on the door for sure. Who Coombes reminds me of is very young Heaslip. Both got a lot of early mileage out of big upright carries using their natural strength, fending and bumping tacklers, scoring handily from close range with power, showing some nascent offload game, defence impactful when it works but not the most mobile around the field.
Heaslip decided to redesign himself in the Kieran Read mould, physically and stylistically. I guess he did it in part because it meshed better with the other backrowers. But also i think he realized be needed to add a lot more stamina and versatility to his game.
Coombes probably doesn't need to really scale down his bulk. In fact, his broadness is prob a point of differentiation from the other options. But he does need to figure out a way to up his endurance and his involvements. Faz/Simon/Dogs/POC won't accept anything less if he wants to get starter minutes.
Admittedly I am probably coming at this with a certain bias, which is why I would be slow to declare that Coombes should be Irelands first choice 8, but I think he is an incredible player.
He is an absolute freak in terms of strength. Very unIrish in his ability to continuously get over the gainline, slow rucks, create turnovers and score tries.
For me he is a player that Ireland should be looking to get as many minutes in his legs as possible leading into the RWC.
However, what I have heard is that Farrell believes, and it is probably backed up by solid data, that Coombes drifts in and out of games.
If true, then I can understand why he is not being selected, but I do hope that he makes the step up at International level.
A backrow with himself, Dorris and JVF has the makings of a truely world class backrow for a number of years.
Just because a post upsets you, that doesn’t mean that it is wrong. People have different views in all aspects of life, this is a key ingredient to an interesting conversation.