Ireland v Argentina 2017

[wixfjord]

Others have said it, but stats on how many tackles Byrne has made/missed aren’t really the question here.
He’s generally fine when making a one on one tackle since he’s such a beast physically, though tackle technique needs work.

It’s his defensive reading and positioning, the thing that doesn’t actually show up in tackles made/missed stats that’s his major problem. To bastardise a famous quote, you miss 100% of the tackles that you aren’t there to make!

Edit: Sorry I see Peg Leg has made that point and bastardise that famous quote before me!

[Dave Cahill]

Some far out folks say that you can learn as much about a player from watching them play in their team as you can from reading their stats.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Do people not think that's improved though? He still has issues but it's definitely improved IMO. I would have said that being picked in the Ireland squad was a good indication of that.

[wixfjord]

Do people not think that's improved though? He still has issues but it's definitely improved IMO. I would have said that being picked in the Ireland squad was a good indication of that.

He was better on Saturday alright, looked hesitant but managed to hold the line and stay out on 2-3 occasions in the first half in particular.

For Leinster, he has been as bad at times this year as he was last, so hopefully Farrell will help.

[Oldschool]

Adam Byrne Defebce.
1. His tackling is at an acceptable level but like all things in life could be improved upon.
2. He ball watches rather than situation watching.
This is at the core as to why he comes in off his line.
By ball watching I mean he's watching the player in possession rather than watching the position and movement of other players nearby, including players on his own team.
3. As a result of 2 above his decision making is poor.
He is making his decisions too soon and hence he is making the wrong decision.
In essence he's not waiting long enough to be fully informed as to the best decision to make.
4. Situational experience will help improve his decision making, but he has to be prepared to delay on makibg the final decision.
5. He also has to learn to trust his knowledge of his opposition, his fellow players and the defensive system being used.
4 and 5 are closely linked.
Other than the above he's grand.

[Fan with smartphone]

Thought it was interesting to hear Schmidt kind of mark Stockdale down for being hesitant on his defence. In the first half anyway, I thought his backing off was a good thing! Instead of committing early he backed off and was able to de-fuse an overlap. It looked like Byrne was making similar decisions on the other side and (correctly) trusting his inside defenders. I thought this looked like strategy and a change to the defensive performance under Kiss against Argentina in 2015, but Schmidt’s post match comments have me scratching my head a bit.

[paddyor]

The problem for me with the tackles made/missed stats vis a vis Byrne, is that he missed 100% of the tackles that he wasn't there to make. But they're not recorded.

Like when you run up and slap the ball the down to prevent a try and get carded? That's not in the tackle stats either. Other things not in the stats include shit box kicks or chasing long to the best winger in the game. By your own logic he's not getting credit for 100% of the tackles he would have made if he wasn't MIA.

I gave the season stats for a reason. I know they don't tell the whole story (we had one of the highest missed tackle stats going into the Glasgow game but were one of the best defense in the league) but they show trends. E>G

Full 2017 season

Marmion 73 tackles / 10 Missed - 1435 mins

McGRath 157 tackles / 36 Missed - 1495 mins

Murray 134 tackles / 26 missed - 1813 mins

Marmion did lesss defending on account of Connachts possession heavy game plan. McGrath has some appetite for defensive work(probably making a few of Adams tackles for him ). Oh and nearly forgot

JGP 84 tackles / 20 missed -1026 mins

I do think if he was as bad a defender as is sometimes made out on here it would be more evident in the seasons stats.

[paddyor]

Some far out folks say that you can learn as much about a player from watching them play in their team as you can from reading their stats.

Hippies!

I'm getting my value for money out of this Ultimate rugby subscription.

[TerenureJim]

Thought it was interesting to hear Schmidt kind of mark Stockdale down for being hesitant on his defence. In the first half anyway, I thought his backing off was a good thing! Instead of committing early he backed off and was able to de-fuse an overlap. It looked like Byrne was making similar decisions on the other side and (correctly) trusting his inside defenders. I thought this looked like strategy and a change to the defensive performance under Kiss against Argentina in 2015, but Schmidt’s post match comments have me scratching my head a bit.

Schmidt is supposed to have you scratching your head, these games were about winning but also developing while giving as little as possible tactically to six nations opponents. Job well done IMO

[Laighin Break]

Like when you run up and slap the ball the down to prevent a try and get carded? That's not in the tackle stats either. Other things not in the stats include shit box kicks or chasing long to the best winger in the game. By your own logic he's not getting credit for 100% of the tackles he would have made if he wasn't MIA.

That was a good thing though.

[wixfjord]

I do think if he was as bad a defender as is sometimes made out on here it would be more evident in the seasons stats.

No, it wouldn't.
Because as explained, his biggest problem is his positioning, meaning he's often not even in a position to attempt a tackle.
You're trying to use stats for support rather than illumination here Paddy!

Stats are devoid of context, sometimes they tell a story. In this instance anyone who has watched Byrne over the last 18 months or so will know he's weak defensively, particularly positionally, and that has cost us on numerous occasions. Scarlets in the semi most notably, Cardiff at home last year was another.

[paddyor]

I do think if he was as bad a defender as is sometimes made out on here it would be more evident in the seasons stats.

No, it wouldn't.
Because as explained, his biggest problem is his positioning, meaning he's often not even in a position to attempt a tackle.
You're trying to use stats for support rather than illumination here Paddy!

Stats are devoid of context, sometimes they tell a story. In this instance anyone who has watched Byrne over the last 18 months or so will know he's weak defensively, particularly positionally, and that has cost us on numerous occasions. Scarlets in the semi most notably, Cardiff at home last year was another.

It would show up in tackles made/missed per minute played. Anyway, not a hill I wanna die on.

[bronxbull]

In fairness to Byrne we have had a few methods of tackling on the wing
Challenge opposite winger for pace/use touchline (Hickie after rough start was fine defender)
Hesitation (Fionn Carr no man's land) less said the better...
Luke Fitz/Isa Nacewa( arrive in early and often,crush outside centre) probably our best defenders.
Rob Kearney is fine on straight up tackles but he has wiffed a fair few side on ones down the years.

[Ruckedtobits]

In fairness to Byrne we have had a few methods of tackling on the wing
Challenge opposite winger for pace/use touchline (Hickie after rough start was fine defender)
Hesitation (Fionn Carr no man's land) less said the better...
Luke Fitz/Isa Nacewa( arrive in early and often,crush outside centre) probably our best defenders.
Rob Kearney is fine on straight up tackles but he has wiffed a fair few side on ones down the years.

Rob only uses left shoulder to tackle. A perfect example was their (non-grusber kick) try last Saturday. Girv was our last great tackling full back. Joey is excellent tackler on both shoulders but has not enough weight for drive-back tackles. Larmour is a good tackler on right side and passable on left side, but needs more work with Isa - the best tackler in Leinster rugby in the past decade.

[wixfjord]

It would show up in tackles made/missed per minute played. Anyway, not a hill I wanna die on.

No, it wouldn't. Tackles not attempted because of positional errors wouldn't show up in any stats.

[paddyor]

It would show up in tackles made/missed per minute played. Anyway, not a hill I wanna die on.

No, it wouldn't. Tackles not attempted because of positional errors wouldn't show up in any stats.

Sigh
Stockdale
55+15=70

1063/70 = 15.18 min for every tackle/attempt

Sweetnam
99+24=123

1688/123 = 13.72 min for every tackle/attempt

Byrne (actual)
78+12 = 90

1435/90 = 15.9 mins for every tackle/attempt

Byrne +MIA(add in another 10 missed/made tackles for all the times he went MIA over the course of the season - 78% tackler though statistically he's more likely to make than miss the tackle if he's in position)
78+12+10

1435/100 = 14.35 mins for every tackle/attempt

Byrne +MIA2 (add in another 20 missed/made tackles for all the times he went MIA over the course of the season - 70% tackler as above)
78+12+10

1435/100 = 13.04 mins for every tackle/attempt

[Lar]

Some far out folks say that you can learn as much about a player from watching them play in their team as you can from reading their stats.

Blanchardstown isn't that far out.

[Logorrhea]

Do people not think that's improved though? He still has issues but it's definitely improved IMO.

Was he not just dropped from the Leinster team due to repeatedly poor performance in defense? Not sure where you see could see an improvement as he wasn't really challenged on the wing and anything he did in centre was pretty awesome given how he was just thrown in there. Joe fancies him, and he wouldn't throw him into a clash like this without having some confidence in him, however I wouldn't want him near a Leinster lineup for the back-to-backs.

I thought Luke Fitzgerald had an interesting point in his latest podcast. He was talking about Larmour. He said he thought that Larmour wasn't the biggest guy but had the fight in him, the willingness or toughness to get stuck in and possibly get hurt. I've questioned whether Adam has that. If he does, and I presume he does, I just haven't seen it and it'll come. When it does he'll be brilliant. As it is though, I wouldn't want him anywhere near our first 15 for the back-to-backs.

[paddyor]

Do people not think that's improved though? He still has issues but it's definitely improved IMO.

Was he not just dropped from the Leinster team due to repeatedly poor performance in defense? Not sure where you see could see an improvement as he wasn't really challenged on the wing and anything he did in centre was pretty awesome given how he was just thrown in there. Joe fancies him, and he wouldn't throw him into a clash like this without having some confidence in him, however I wouldn't want him near a Leinster lineup for the back-to-backs.

I thought Luke Fitzgerald had an interesting point in his latest podcast. He was talking about Larmour. He said he thought that Larmour wasn't the biggest guy but had the fight in him, the willingness or toughness to get stuck in and possibly get hurt. I've questioned whether Adam has that. If he does, and I presume he does, I just haven't seen it and it'll come. When it does he'll be brilliant. As it is though, I wouldn't want him anywhere near our first 15 for the back-to-backs.

Em, he was just called into the Ireland team to make his debut????
Nah, he doesn't seem to have any problem going full bore ball in hand. He get's thru a lot of contact and he's no problem getting his hands free for an offload when he's getting tackled. I think it's decision making, he hesitates. This is what I'm talking about though. If he were more certain and agressive in the tackle.....

I can't think why you'd exclude our best attacking wing against one of the least threatening back 3s we're likely to face. Exeter generally attack using tight carries, there won't be much ball going out unless they suck in defenders.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Do people not think that's improved though? He still has issues but it's definitely improved IMO.

Was he not just dropped from the Leinster team due to repeatedly poor performance in defense? Not sure where you see could see an improvement as he wasn't really challenged on the wing and anything he did in centre was pretty awesome given how he was just thrown in there. Joe fancies him, and he wouldn't throw him into a clash like this without having some confidence in him, however I wouldn't want him near a Leinster lineup for the back-to-backs.

Did Leo say that officially? Missed that one! And surely you could trump that kind of argument with the one that he was selected in the Ireland squad? Maybe he did pay for his mistakes against Montpellier and Munster (assuming you were referring to the Glasgow game), or maybe they wanted Ferg's experience, or maybe it was a range of things. If he was dropped because of errors in those games, that doesn't change my point that he has improved overall.

I wasn't holding up the Argentina game as definitive proof of him being a good defender, and also not sure how not making mistakes on Saturday is anything other than a good sign, surely the issue is/was that he was getting caught out with basic mistakes so it's a good thing if we don't see them? But he was good on Saturday and excellent against Ulster recently so I would say they're big positives since the Munster and Montpelier games.

Taking a more long term view I just feel like he was all over the place when he first came into the side and, while he still makes errors, he looks more assured now and makes fewer mistakes.