Ireland v Argentina Q/F RWC 2015

[dropkick]

There needs to be a big change of attitude in Irish rugby. The main problem has been designing our playing style around England and France. In other words bulking up to match them. Size over skill.

Yesterday a smaller Argentina ran rings around the Irish players. Theyve designed their game around the tri nations style, especially NZ which means playing at a high tempo.

The bulked up Irish players were slower in every way. Argentina flooded into areas around the pitch which blew the bigger but less numerous Irish players away. Their ball carriers always had plenty of options, which stretched the Ireland defence to breaking point. Ireland's passive defence made it extra easy.

Interesting to read that not only Graham Henry but super rugby winning coaches like Dave Rennie and Jamie Joseph have been brought to Argentina to coach their coaches. Something the IRFU should look into.

[Flash Gordon]

There needs to be a big change of attitude in Irish rugby. The main problem has been designing our playing style around England and France. In other words bulking up to match them. Size over skill.

Yesterday a smaller Argentina ran rings around the Irish players. Theyve designed their game around the tri nations style, especially NZ which means playing at a high tempo.

The bulked up Irish players were slower in every way. Argentina flooded into areas around the pitch which blew the bigger but less numerous Irish players away. Their ball carriers always had plenty of options, which stretched the Ireland defence to breaking point. Ireland's passive defence made it extra easy.

Interesting to read that not only Graham Henry but super rugby winning coaches like Dave Rennie and Jamie Joseph have been brought to Argentina to coach their coaches. Something the IRFU should look into.

I think the point on designing a playing style to beat England and France is true and their style is a reflection of the styles in the Top 14 and Premiership. The premiership in particular is bankrupt of ideas which is one of the reasons they haven't won the European Cup since 2007. Interestingly, the Irish team that did play fast paced creative rugby with width were Leinster under Joe. We haven't had that at Leinster for two years and I think that's impacting the national team - O'Connor wasn't just bad for Leinster he was bad for Ireland. It worries me both from a Leinster and Ireland perspective that the southern hemisphere is well ahead of us in terms of ideas and that at Leinster we haven't managed to bring in the best knowledge from the south.

I'm not sure our build up helped either. Rather than playing games against England, Wales and Scotland from whom we're not going to learn very much really maybe we should have been playing in the South. Even if you're playing New Zealand or Australia A you're up against a different way of playing.

I also think we need to think about our defensive systems. Les Kiss won the 6 nations for us by defending brilliantly against a narrow point of attack. Watching over the weekend Argentina, Australia and New Zealand were most effective with wide ball. Often it wasn't that complicated either - no skips, no loops just simple quick ball wide and unfortunately we were badly exposed.

I think the IRFU needs to disproportionately invest in world class coaching from the South both in defence and attack - after all you look at the step changes in Leinster's history with both Chieka (Plus Knoxy) and Schmidt and those discontinuities came about by bringing in people who thought differently and coached differently, if you don't do that you get incrementalism and we probably need step change.

[Peg Leg]

There needs to be a big change of attitude in Irish rugby. The main problem has been designing our playing style around England and France. In other words bulking up to match them. Size over skill.

Yesterday a smaller Argentina ran rings around the Irish players. Theyve designed their game around the tri nations style, especially NZ which means playing at a high tempo.

The bulked up Irish players were slower in every way. Argentina flooded into areas around the pitch which blew the bigger but less numerous Irish players away. Their ball carriers always had plenty of options, which stretched the Ireland defence to breaking point. Ireland's passive defence made it extra easy.

Interesting to read that not only Graham Henry but super rugby winning coaches like Dave Rennie and Jamie Joseph have been brought to Argentina to coach their coaches. Something the IRFU should look into.

Agreed, that extra 10kg is worth f%~k all if the opposition is willing to commit another 90kg to the ruck.
They played the game better, filled the rucks when it was on and committed just enough to be competitive on slower ball. What astounded me most was how they dismantled our maul. it was useless to us and resulted in Murray sending the ball into a defensively packed mid-field each time.
For the future, Cronin, Hendo, POM, Murray, Henshaw & Luke are the players with the skill set to drive us on. But it's disheartening to have to compete every year in a european comp that's built on fatball. I feel like Ireland arrived to this RWC with the perfect team and structure to win the 2011 competition.
Time to go the Brian Moore route!

[Golf Man]

There needs to be a big change of attitude in Irish rugby. The main problem has been designing our playing style around England and France. In other words bulking up to match them. Size over skill.

Yesterday a smaller Argentina ran rings around the Irish players. Theyve designed their game around the tri nations style, especially NZ which means playing at a high tempo.

The bulked up Irish players were slower in every way. Argentina flooded into areas around the pitch which blew the bigger but less numerous Irish players away. Their ball carriers always had plenty of options, which stretched the Ireland defence to breaking point. Ireland's passive defence made it extra easy.

Interesting to read that not only Graham Henry but super rugby winning coaches like Dave Rennie and Jamie Joseph have been brought to Argentina to coach their coaches. Something the IRFU should look into.

The comments are probably reasonable but 1 or 2 things stand out

- We play France and England every year, as well as facing their clubs in Europe- its understandable that the style we play reflects this
- Are we really that bulked up?
- Manic intensity and bossing the breakdown have been a fatuire of this team - not sure where that went yesterday
- Rather than size over skill we are taking defence over attack - if that mindset doesn't change (bearing in mind its been successful) then we simply won't be able to compete at the top level

[leinster4life13]

I dont get the complaints about "bulk", its a lack of power, and size and power go hand in hand. If anything I'd say we are underpowered, undersized and slow if we are talking about our physical preparation. Look at Wales, they are big fast and powerful, same with the Boks, they are undeniably successful, add some width and offloading and you have an irresistable combination. Our problem is believing in a "system" over pace, size and talent and system built to allow them to utilise it. eg Why did Gilroy not get a look in? He score tries for fun.

Our pack got blown out of it physically, Ross is a marshmallow, Toner is immobile and too tall, Healy a shadow of himself, Best, besides being a pest at rucktime, offers nothing in terms of carrying and tackling, I dont see the hard on for his performance. Henry isnt a physical player, Heaslip isnt a physical player, Jordi isnt a physical player. If we cloned an aging Schalk Burger and put him in front of our backrow we would get blown off the park.

[dropkick]

There needs to be a big change of attitude in Irish rugby. The main problem has been designing our playing style around England and France. In other words bulking up to match them. Size over skill.

Yesterday a smaller Argentina ran rings around the Irish players. Theyve designed their game around the tri nations style, especially NZ which means playing at a high tempo.

The bulked up Irish players were slower in every way. Argentina flooded into areas around the pitch which blew the bigger but less numerous Irish players away. Their ball carriers always had plenty of options, which stretched the Ireland defence to breaking point. Ireland's passive defence made it extra easy.

Interesting to read that not only Graham Henry but super rugby winning coaches like Dave Rennie and Jamie Joseph have been brought to Argentina to coach their coaches. Something the IRFU should look into.

The comments are probably reasonable but 1 or 2 things stand out

- We play France and England every year, as well as facing their clubs in Europe- its understandable that the style we play reflects this
- Are we really that bulked up?
- Manic intensity and bossing the breakdown have been a fatuire of this team - not sure where that went yesterday
- Rather than size over skill we are taking defence over attack - if that mindset doesn't change (bearing in mind its been successful) then we simply won't be able to compete at the top level

1, indeed but we must change. Nobody wants to risk bad results though.
2, a bit more than needed I'd say. At the end of the 6 nations some of the squad spoke about bulking up for the world cup. That's the mindset.
3, Ireland were off the pace and Argentina threw more players into the breakdown. A number of times they flooded through an Irish ruck and turned the ball over.
4, indeed the mindset is defensive which leads to certain type of players.

[All Blacks nil]

Are we really that bulked up?.

We had 24 kg to spare in the pack yesterday. in old money a half a stone per man

[Golf Man]

Are we really that bulked up?.

We had 24 kg to spare in the pack yesterday. in old money a half a stone per man

That doesn't really say much tbh - I don't think you could look at that Ireland team and say that they are too bulked up - there is no that is incredibly hue - think Ross and Toner are the heaviest, but I don't think being bulked up is our problem. We definitely struggled with alack of leadership yesterday - it was always going to difficult to deal with that shortfall - the guys missing were some of the real leaders. Some talk that we are overcoached - not sure I buy into that but we do only seem to be coached one way

[Oldschoolsocks]

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Yes but the ball clearly came back from an Australian player.

Not in any replay I've seen. Ball is knocked forward by the hairy number 20 bloke wearing the Scottish shirt. If you can show me an angle where this is not what happens I'll happily revise my opinion. But as far as I can see it there's zero controversy.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

It's not the size that counts, it's how you use it....or so I'm told.

Michael Hooper is prime example....in a rugby sense.

Thankfully we do have big ball carriers coming through. The second row is the one area I'm worried about though, very little depth and nobody who'll be ready to step up soon. We could really do with a project player being lined up very soon, although it wouldn't help for a long time, or finding a New Zealander with an Irish granny. Going into this 6N we only have Dev, Henderson, and Ryan. Ryan has rarely been fit for two years and who knows how long Dev's body will last. He could well be fine for years or he could have a short shelf life. Yesterday shows that it's not ideal to have Henderson starting in the second row either.

[Oldschoolsocks]

It's not the size that counts, it's how you use it....or so I'm told.

Michael Hooper is prime example....in a rugby sense.

Thankfully we do have big ball carriers coming through. The second row is the one area I'm worried about though, very little depth and nobody who'll be ready to step up soon. We could really do with a project player being lined up very soon, although it wouldn't help for a long time, or finding a New Zealander with an Irish granny. Going into this 6N we only have Dev, Henderson, and Ryan. Ryan has rarely been fit for two years and who knows how long Dev's body will last. He could well be fine for years or he could have a short shelf life. Yesterday shows that it's not ideal to have Henderson starting in the second row either.

On Henderson, he just didn't have the static strength to pack down in the tighthead side, he was a dead man walking from about 20 minutes in.

[simonokeeffe]

Gilroy also concedes tries for fun and has the positional sense of a drunk teenager at a festival

Our gameplan was a bit hindered especially in midfield by player availability

Summer tour 2014: Henshaw injured, Payne NIQ
Autumn 2014: Payne injured in first match
Six nations 2015: Sexton-Henshaw-Payne play 3 of the 5 matches together

the 2 wingers for 2014 six nations wing not fit for 2015 six nations so we have 2 different wingers altogther

[olaf the fat]

Sometimes you just meet a better team.

[Dexter]

Sometimes you just meet a better team.

..or a team of a similar level who play better on the day

[simonokeeffe]

From Mick Kerrigan in the Indo

[FLIP]

Scotland get an admittance from WR that Joubert was wrong. Meanwhile Farces gets a semi final and we get no justice because we put up and shut up. I bet we didn't even ask for a citing.

[leinster4life13]

Scotland get an admittance from WR that Joubert was wrong. Meanwhile Farces gets a semi final and we get no justice because we put up and shut up. I bet we didn't even ask for a citing.

Garces wasnt worth twenty points, Garces didnt make shite of our backrow, thats the ultimate in sour grapes, its like NZ blaming Barnes because they bottled it, lost all their 10's and Dusatoir had a once in a lifetime game


We lost because we picked slow midgets.

[FLIP]

Scotland get an admittance from WR that Joubert was wrong. Meanwhile Farces gets a semi final and we get no justice because we put up and shut up. I bet we didn't even ask for a citing.

Garces wasnt worth twenty points, Garces didnt make shite of our backrow, thats the ultimate in sour grapes, its like NZ blaming Barnes because they bottled it, lost all their 10's and Dusatoir had a once in a lifetime game


We lost because we picked slow midgets.

If you think that 30 minutes with 14 men with a 3 point deficit wouldn't have changed the result you're even thicker than your steroid adled posts make you out to be.

[leinster4life13]

Ha, I remember playing against Belvo, their 8 had about 6 inches and three or four stone on me, big rangy fellow, went low he pushed me face first into the ground, tried to go high got a hand in the face, pushed his hand down hit him, he got a paw loose and offloaded. Sometimes you come up against better players, there is nothing you can do about it. They were bigger, quicker and faster and had a better gameplan, you are focusing on one incident, look at the entire match, we were blasted off the park.

Also, nice one with the personal insults, Its opinionated rugby banter, not bitchy asides, maybe you need to take some steroids, lower your estrogen levels................brah.

[FLIP]

Again, if you don't think 14 men for 30 minutes and 3 points would have changed the game you are truely idiotic enough to think looking like a fool is banter.