Ireland v Argentina Q/F RWC 2015

[JohnB]

The consensus on Munsterfan's appears to be that it was Leinster's fault. It's good to know there are still certainties in the world we can rely on!

[Dave Cahill]

Stuff

Good stuff

[hugonaut]

We weren't set up to win the collisions though through a combination of the tackle choices our players made and the selection. We were trying to play a game that minimised the contact. Put Ryan in the row and move Henderson to 6 and you find that the pack is a lot more combative in the carry, particularly if you are only carrying one man wide

As I wrote before the game, I wouldn't have had Murphy at No6 [or even in the matchday squad, I have to admit]. In his defense, he won two turnovers at the breakdown [one a clean turnover and the other a penalty], a bunch of lineout ball and scored a try with a great supporting line. I thought it was as good a performance from him at No6 as you could expect. His carrying wasn't as good as O'Mahony's has been in this World Cup, but his breakdown work was better [POM has been very ordinary at the breakdown in this tournament, which I'd put down to his gammy left shoulder].

Murphy's tackle count wasn't great [5/1] but then again, O'Mahony doesn't offer much in that part of the game either: 7/0 vs Canada, 5/0 vs Italy, 6/2 vs France.

The team JS put out wasn't the same as the one I'd have liked to see start [the latter is on page 8 of this thread]. I thought that we saw some of the legit arguments about pigeon-holing Henderson as a second row in this game, although with O'Connell's international retirement our options have distinctly lessened. One of the best things in Henderson's game is running with the ball, and if you wear his legs out scrummaging and mauling and tie him up in the tight against big, top quality packs, you're swapping grunt work that any international-quality lock can do for ... eh, nothing.

[munster#1]

^The Earls as a center experiment has to be over, he doesnt know how to lead a line or shut down space, I know he's second choice blah blah blah, but defence is the bedrock teams are built on, you cant pick suspect players in key positions, especially if you have two carthorses on the wings.

Very lazy analysis on earls there. His work rate was great today.

I think you might need to re watch the game and just follow earls.

Did I call him a lazy player or question his work rate or honesty? I questioned his defensive ability, his brain, he gave up the gain line all day, didnt shut down the pass to the outside, let his slow wingers get turned inside out. Les Kiss bears responsibility for running a cr@p defensive scheme that Argentina passed around, Earls bears responsibility for allowing it to happen. He is the leader on the outside, he has to lead a hard D and shut them down, he has to read what happening, he has to take a risk. He was a passenger defensively, as were a lot of players to be fair, but, he is the thirteen, he has to change it, set the tone and try to shut Argentina down, he didnt and they cut us up out wide. Earls at some point had to make the executive decision to go up and saw someone in half.

Earls played the game plan he was given, a joe smith ireland team play a low risk, tight defensive game, which does not allow for a center to come up and leave a gap, which would be seen as a risk.

You can not blame earls for the defensive frailties shown by our back 3.


Earls job today was to be an assist tackler and to slow down the breakdown, he did not get to the breakdown so often by mistake.

The responsibility today is with one man. That is the man who selected a limited team to play a limited game plan and showed a massive resistance or inability to change.

[Medinah]

Earls wasn't up the standard required along with many other players. He wasn't the only one but blame could be placed on him - I personally thought the pack were sh1te 1-8.

[Sionnach]

Earls wasn't up the standard required along with many other players. He wasn't the only one but blame could be placed on him - I personally thought the pack were sh1te 1-8.

Best looked good to me.

[hugonaut]

Earls played the game plan he was given, a joe smith ireland team play a low risk, tight defensive game, which does not allow for a center to come up and leave a gap, which would be seen as a risk.

You can not blame earls for the defensive frailties shown by our back 3.


Earls job today was to be an assist tackler and to slow down the breakdown, he did not get to the breakdown so often by mistake.

The responsibility today is with one man. That is the man who selected a limited team to play a limited game plan and showed a massive resistance or inability to change.

Never fails to amaze me that Schmidt goes out of his way to include the Munster fans on this site in his game plans. Yourself and Golf Man are always saying stuff like "his job today was to do this-or-that [thus absolving him of any blame]." And then, after all the access to the gameplan he has given you, you go and stab him in the back with comments like that!

[munster#1]

Earls played the game plan he was given, a joe smith ireland team play a low risk, tight defensive game, which does not allow for a center to come up and leave a gap, which would be seen as a risk.

You can not blame earls for the defensive frailties shown by our back 3.


Earls job today was to be an assist tackler and to slow down the breakdown, he did not get to the breakdown so often by mistake.

The responsibility today is with one man. That is the man who selected a limited team to play a limited game plan and showed a massive resistance or inability to change.

Never fails to amaze me that Schmidt goes out of his way to include the Munster fans on this site in his game plans. Yourself and Golf Man are always saying stuff like "his job today was to do this-or-that [thus absolving him of any blame]." And then, after all the access to the gameplan he has given you, you go and stab him in the back with comments like that!

Granted I am assuming that that was the way earls was instructed to play, but I am basing that on the fact that he played the very same way last week as he did this. If it were not a game plan he would of a. Not be selected this weekend or b. Have played differently, as I seriously doubt that schmidt would select a player who refused to play his game plan.

you can use you usual sarcasm if you like, but I think there are very few rugby fans who do not believe that our game plan was limited and we had no plan b.
We are out of this world cup because we played a better drilled team, not because we lost to better players.

I would also like to remind you that today I was an irish fan. This munster fan/ leinster fan is something that belongs in the school yard on days like today.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Said it already but don't see why Earls and Luke didn't switch.

For our set piece to be good but not really get going consistently off the back of it was very frustrating.

Little things keep coming back to me, thought it was a deliberate knock on by Argentina on our 22...bah.

[Medinah]

Earls wasn't up the standard required along with many other players. He wasn't the only one but blame could be placed on him - I personally thought the pack were sh1te 1-8.

Best looked good to me.

I must be wrong so. We were demolished at the breakdown 1-8 takes the blame for that.

[Sionnach]

Earls wasn't up the standard required along with many other players. He wasn't the only one but blame could be placed on him - I personally thought the pack were sh1te 1-8.

Best looked good to me.

I must be wrong so. We were demolished at the breakdown 1-8 takes the blame for that.

No, not saying you're wrong. Just that I thought Best did pretty well, slowed a lot of ball and had (I think) a couple of turnovers. Even if he was superman, it wouldn't have been enough.

[leinster4life13]

Earls played the game plan he was given, a joe smith ireland team play a low risk, tight defensive game, which does not allow for a center to come up and leave a gap, which would be seen as a risk.

You can not blame earls for the defensive frailties shown by our back 3.


Earls job today was to be an assist tackler and to slow down the breakdown, he did not get to the breakdown so often by mistake.

The responsibility today is with one man. That is the man who selected a limited team to play a limited game plan and showed a massive resistance or inability to change.

Look at the first Argentina try, It begins with Earls due to his poor linespeed and complete lack of forward momentum, and yes, for not covering our slow widemen. A 13's job is hard, he has to defend aggressively and protect his back 3, Earls has covering speed, he can get up fast putting the Argie pass under pressure and still turn and cover across leaving DK to play wider and have more touchline. Instead Earls goes soft instantly, nearly over runs DK bunches up on him, DK doent get pushed and doesnt have the gas and gets skinned on the outside. Its a 3 on in international rugby, it shouldnt happen.Maybe I am holding him to too high a standard, but I expect my 13 to lead the line, not just be a passenger to a system. Im not excusing the Kearneys of having a shocking day defensively, I just think Earls did a poor job of screening them as a 13, leaving them up against fast players with space outside them and not putting any pressure on the Argentinian pass. And that was his story defensively all day, he allowed Argentina to target Bowe/F and Kearney and run at them, I think the try to make it 36, he did more or less the same.
Its a coaching failure, we have been playing badly imo for ages, masked by winning, as weird as it sounds, we havent developed or moved our game on, it was stale and predictable, offensively and defensively. I'm not just singling Earls out and heaping everything on him, I am just pointing out that his defence was no where near the standard required to be a 13, he is a quality winger, he just doesnt have the mongrel dog to play there.

[All Blacks nil]

Earls played the game plan he was given, a joe smith ireland team play a low risk, tight defensive game, which does not allow for a center to come up and leave a gap, which would be seen as a risk.

You can not blame earls for the defensive frailties shown by our back 3.


Earls job today was to be an assist tackler and to slow down the breakdown, he did not get to the breakdown so often by mistake.

The responsibility today is with one man. That is the man who selected a limited team to play a limited game plan and showed a massive resistance or inability to change.

Look at the first Argentina try, It begins with Earls due to his poor linespeed and complete lack of forward momentum, and yes, for not covering our slow widemen. A 13's job is hard, he has to defend aggressivelywide and protect his back 3, Earls has covering speed, he can get up fast putting the Argie pass under pressure and still turn and cover across leaving DK to play wider and have more touchline. Instead Earls goes soft instantly, nearly over runs DK bunches up on him, DK doent get pushed and doesnt have the gas and gets skinned on the outside. Its a 3 on in international rugby, it shouldnt happen.Maybe I am holding him to too high a standard, but I expect my 13 to lead the line, not just be a passenger to a system. Im not excusing the Kearneys of having a shocking day defensively, I just think Earls did a poor job of screening them as a 13, leaving them up against fast players with space outside them and not putting any pressure on the Argentinian pass. And that was his story defensively all day, he allowed Argentina to target Bowe/F and Kearney and run at them, I think the try to make it 36, he did more or less the same.
Its a coaching failure, we have been playing badly imo for ages, masked by winning, as weird as it sounds, we havent developed or moved our game on, it was stale and predictable, offensively and defensively. I'm not just singling Earls out and heaping everything on him, I am just pointing out that his defence was no where near the standard required to be a 13, he is a quality winger, he just doesnt have the mongrel dog to play there.

In fairness to Earls, whose defence left a 2 on 2 situation, you have to trust the guy outside you and certainly in the opening minutes of a RWC 1/4 final that would be taken as a given. DK gets burned on the 5 metre line. Any wider and Sean OB and the boys in the stand could have caught him.
I can see why you think it is Earls' fault though. He shouldn't have allowed a mismatch like that to happen

[paddyor]

Said it already but don't see why Earls and Luke didn't switch.

For our set piece to be good but not really get going consistently off the back of it was very frustrating.

Little things keep coming back to me, thought it was a deliberate knock on by Argentina on our 22...bah.

Yeah I remember that alright was thinking the same myself. One or two of those inside balls that didn't go to hand.......Also wondering what might of been if we hadn't started so flat. When was the last time we were (so comprehensively) shunted off our own ball in a scrum). Bah indeed!

Yeah seeing Henry trying to get the ball over the gainline off lineouts was ........I wondered would we have been better off using Murphy but then he was taking a good bit of lineout ball.

[leinster4life13]

Look at Earls for the first try, he is way too close to DK, he instantly drifts, zero pressure, he does not lead, which as a 13 his job is to do. Im not absolving Kearnage Deux from blame, just pointing out that Earls doesnt have the nose to defend in the thirteen channel. He catches up to DK,why did he not push him out wider? He knows he has pace.

[Hippo]

Great performances from Jamie Heaslip and Rory Best, really heroic. KE looked very exposed at 13 and there were many indifferent displays, especially in the first quarter. Still not sure why DR didn't start in the row and IH at 6. Desperately disappointing.

[RoboProp]

]

Earls wasn't up the standard required along with many other players. He wasn't the only one but blame could be placed on him - I personally thought the pack were sh1te 1-8.

Best looked good to me.
No, not saying you're wrong. Just that I thought Best did pretty well, slowed a lot of ball and had (I think) a couple of turnovers. Even if he was superman, it wouldn't have been enough.

That's just daft, if we had Superman we would have mopped the floor with them. F**k you would rip them a new one with Captain America

Agree with you that Best was stand out in pack with Jamie

[Ruckedtobits]

The Argentinians carried and tackled with real ferocity and a) drove back our, slow, defensive line when in possession and b)drove back our attacking line when we were in possession -even Henderson. As a consequence c) we started to put more men into breakdown and left short numbers or mis-matches on shortside, particularly in last20 minutes.

When we had the ball, d)they counter-rucked to such effect that we had to put more guys into ruck and therefore ended up with carriers isolated or turned over.

With our four missing players, POC, SOB, JS and Payne, we might have weathered their agressive opening 10 minutes. However, having kept them scoreless for 35 minutes and brought it back to 20-23, we then needed to have and use the bench agressively. McGrath was the only impact off the bench. We needed Ryan, Ruddock, McGrath, Strauss and White together with Reddan 10 mins later.

JS and coaches misread our recovery for momentum shift and their subs were just more of the same with fresh legs.

Well coached team which won the collisions in defence and attack. In possession, they sucked it our defenders as they carried through the gain line. they then moved the ball to a flat line of attackers (3 or4 at a time) on the short side against our flat-footed and out-numbered defenders and our wingers were burned - all of them.

Tough to take and a masterclass in coaching.

You can plan for the RWC, but after the Pool games, you can only prepare and we were not prepared enough for their opening onslaught.

[irish_munster]

The consensus on Munsterfan's appears to be that it was Leinster's fault. It's good to know there are still certainties in the world we can rely on!

Well the consensus here is that its all Keith Earls fault , at least we were spreading the blame around a bit

[simonokeeffe]

@Hugo is Henderson then just an impact sub for Ireland looking forward?

I think Ireland will play a more expansive game going forward as at least 3 of the provinces will be doing so, and likes of POC and Ross retiring forces Ireland to, but Joe had to work with what he had at his disposal and the skilled players werent there

Said this before but centre options were thin on the ground at the provinces, starters last season were Henshaw, 2 Ulster boys, 3 foreigners, and Madigan shoehorned in for his goalkicking, and emmm Hurley
This season looks to be Henshaw, 2 Ulster boys*, 3 foreigners, and Madigan shoehorned in has Leinster have not much options there, and Scannell/Hurley

Will be very interesting when Kiss arrives, McCloskey HAS to start for them, so does Payne revert to 15 so they can get best players on pitch? Even if he keeps his Ulster shirt McCloskey has to work on his rucking and passing to appeal to Joe