Next England Coach & Captain

[simonokeeffe]

At least Lancaster has the u11s to go back to.

Less of a fall from grace than EOS . . . assuredly.

he might get the job again in the future like Brian Ashton

[offshorerules]

So who do you think would be the worst possible choice for England captain? A certain hooker by any chance? Guess who's favourite?

[simonokeeffe]

So who do you think would be the worst possible choice for England captain? A certain hooker by any chance? Guess who's favourite?

I think hes the best choice and not just because captains are less likely to be carded

Best captains for England have always been nasty, arrogant, s.o.b.'s like Johnson, Dallaglio, Carling not humble guys like Robshaw or Corry who were only in the team for their captaincy

[Peg Leg]

So who do you think would be the worst possible choice for England captain? A certain hooker by any chance? Guess who's favourite?

I think hes the best choice and not just because captains are less likely to be carded

Best captains for England have always been nasty, arrogant, s.o.b.'s like Johnson, Dallaglio, Carling not humble guys like Robshaw or Corry who were only in the team for their captaincy

Yep, think Hartley is the obvious choice. Sorely missed gristle from the Eng campaign.

[Logorrhea]

So what's going to happen when Hartley bites an opponent, head-butts and opponent, calls a ref a f*cking cheat in a pressure cooker environment and England lose a game as a result? What happens when he gets banned for another 3 months as a result of his next stupid act, be it for Saints or Engerland? He was missed by England due to his own repeated discipline issues. expecting that to change would be stupid.

Hartley would be a stupid choice for international captain.

[simonokeeffe]

So what's going to happen when Hartley bites an opponent, head-butts and opponent, calls a ref a f*cking cheat in a pressure cooker environment and England lose a game as a result? What happens when he gets banned for another 3 months as a result of his next stupid act, be it for Saints or Engerland? He was missed by England due to his own repeated discipline issues. expecting that to change would be stupid.

Hartley would be a stupid choice for international captain.

Martin Johnson got up to plenty as well

a no one likes us we dotn care attitude suits the England team better than a cap in hand one IMO

they need to be aggressive (in selection)

and if Hartley doesnt work out over a year or two (as skipper) then someone like Launchbury or Itoje will have a lot more international experience and be a more viable candidate

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Hartley has never been great for England and is the type to go missing when things are difficult, even for Northampton. I can understand why they'd want him back in the mix, he's not a bad player by any means, but I wouldn't consider him as captain at all and that has nothing to do with his disciplinary issues. Actually the two are linked I suppose, he's just not a good decision maker.

[nc6000]

Not sure if having your captain come from one of the "single" positions like hooker, scrum-half etc is a great idea. Can't be good for the guys behind him like Youngs etc where they know they have no chance of starting as the captain is in their position. At least with your captain playing in other positions like second row or back row you can still accommodate other guys who are playing well.

[Logorrhea]

Martin Johnson got up to plenty as well

Martin Johnson was low risk from a leadership point of view. He never made the mistake that Hartley always makes. They are both abrasive characters but while Johnson consistently displayed self-control on the pitch, Hartley clearly does not.

[simonokeeffe]

Martin Johnson got up to plenty as well

Martin Johnson was low risk from a leadership point of view. He never made the mistake that Hartley always makes. They are both abrasive characters but while Johnson consistently displayed self-control on the pitch, Hartley clearly does not.

if there were TMO's when Johnson was playing he would have gotten a lifetime ban by age 22

not like Hartley is getting the gig for life, as I said he doesnt work out in a year or two the Jones England team has formed more and a replacement will have more experience

[Logorrhea]

Disagree but couldn't be arsed in arguing. I'm right, you are wrong. I said it first so I win.

[simonokeeffe]

Disagree but couldn't be arsed in arguing. I'm right, you are wrong. I said it first so I win.

your face is wrong

[offshorerules]

Not sure if having your captain come from one of the "single" positions like hooker, scrum-half etc is a great idea. Can't be good for the guys behind him like Youngs etc where they know they have no chance of starting as the captain is in their position. At least with your captain playing in other positions like second row or back row you can still accommodate other guys who are playing well.

Ok so I'm not a rugby historian but how many RWC's have been won by captains playing in a single position? A few I think, Also over the years there has been the likes of Ciaran Fitzgerald, Sean Fitzpatrick and a few other I can think of that have been great captains. Bus I think this argument is a bit of a red herring to be honest.

There are certain things you want your captain to be:

(1) One of the first names on the team sheet.
(2) A leader on the pitch that is able to channel the coaches game plan in the heat of battle.
(3) Available for selection.
(4) On the pitch.

Certain that when Hartley is fit he meets criteria No. 1
Not certain that he meets criteria No. 2 but others including his coaches and team mates say he is so I will accept that.
He is regularly banned so he doesn't meet criteria No. 3
He does not display great ability at staying on the pitch either.

My old man always used to tell me to trust my instincts especially if it was a 'gut feeling for disaster'.

This is a disaster waiting to happen and I would just like to say as an Irish fan, I'm delighted.

[simonokeeffe]

Now Northampton are up in arms over RFU making illegal approach to Alex King to be England backs coach without any formal approach to Saints first

[Dave Cahill]

Now Northampton are up in arms over RFU making illegal approach to Alex King to be England backs coach without any formal approach to Saints first

World Cup is over, the Union is rolling in it - the gloves are coming off

[simonokeeffe]

Now Northampton are up in arms over RFU making illegal approach to Alex King to be England backs coach without any formal approach to Saints first

World Cup is over, the Union is rolling in it - the gloves are coming off

theyre picking their battles badly though
yes PRL are douches but a simple bit of magnaminity here would go a long way/not give PRL excuses & ammo

looking like Tigers 7 Brendan O'Connor could be playing for England (through his granny)

[The Doc]

Now Northampton are up in arms over RFU making illegal approach to Alex King to be England backs coach without any formal approach to Saints first

World Cup is over, the Union is rolling in it - the gloves are coming off

You know - I was thinking that myself. It can't be an accident that a number of the coaching appointments bypassed the clubs (or at least ignored the clubs). Are they trying to emphasise the primacy of the National side.

If so - it could make for great viewing over the next year or two

[outcast eddie]

Martin Johnson got up to plenty as well

Martin Johnson was low risk from a leadership point of view. He never made the mistake that Hartley always makes. They are both abrasive characters but while Johnson consistently displayed self-control on the pitch, Hartley clearly does not.

If I remember correctly Johnson only got the gig by default after Dallaglio's newspaper drugs sting ruled him unsuitable as Captain.

[simonokeeffe]

Martin Johnson got up to plenty as well

Martin Johnson was low risk from a leadership point of view. He never made the mistake that Hartley always makes. They are both abrasive characters but while Johnson consistently displayed self-control on the pitch, Hartley clearly does not.

If I remember correctly Johnson only got the gig by default after Dallaglio's newspaper drugs sting ruled him unsuitable as Captain.

that is correct

we all knew Dallaglio made a mistake not declaring for us