France v Ireland

[suisse]

Imagine being a player in Paris now and deciding to browse the Internet to tap into the excitement of the fans on the eve of a championship decider.....

It's a game of rugby involving a team that are doing quite well at the moment, not politics.

Whatever about going on the internet, I wouldn't imagine too many are going on fans forums.

Yeah generally reaction is less creepy off message boards

[fourthirtythree]

I'm really excited okay? Thing is people usually discuss selection (there was never going to be a discussion as we knew exactly who was in the team) and argue over it (usually on provincial/political grounds).

The discussion of tactics on Against the Head on Monday was really interesting. They argued that with French conditioning not what it could be that the same tactics used against Italy would be used again. I'm not sure they're correct in that. For a start there is the fact that France have actually finished games stronger. Partially no doubt because of the subs they brought on but also because maybe their conditioning isn't as bad as the Irish media say it is.
Secondly we won't, simply won't, get that amount of possession away to France. No way. Even if their lineout and scrum haven't improved mightily. Which no doubt they will have.

I imagine Darcy wasn't supposed to play last week in the original plan. Bod won't finish the match on imagines. So Madigan may be required at 12. Hope there's no thought of him at full back...

[hugonaut]

I'm really excited okay? Thing is people usually discuss selection (there was never going to be a discussion as we knew exactly who was in the team) and argue over it (usually on provincial/political grounds).

The discussion of tactics on Against the Head on Monday was really interesting. They argued that with French conditioning not what it could be that the same tactics used against Italy would be used again. I'm not sure they're correct in that. For a start there is the fact that France have actually finished games stronger. Partially no doubt because of the subs they brought on but also because maybe their conditioning isn't as bad as the Irish media say it is.
Secondly we won't, simply won't, get that amount of possession away to France. No way. Even if their lineout and scrum haven't improved mightily. Which no doubt they will have.

I imagine Darcy wasn't supposed to play last week in the original plan. Bod won't finish the match on imagines. So Madigan may be required at 12. Hope there's no thought of him at full back...

They've finished a couple of games strongly, and they've finished a couple of games poorly. Obviously they had a grandstand finish against England and two subs had a huge part to play. Szarzewski's role in Fickou's try was outstanding – outside break, drew two men, got the pass away, stayed on his feet to support and then shepherded the covering English defender so that Fickou could get around under the sticks: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZOkUv3FnA4

They also marched down to within a couple of metres of the Scottish posts and earned the penalty to win it.

Against Italy they finished like a turd. Completely turned off after they went 30-3 up on 52 minutes. The last half hour was all Italy. Furno dropped the ball close to the line, Botes' held himself up over the line [i.e. his own arm prevented him grounding it], the French had one guy red-carded [Slimani], another guy yellow carded [Vahaamahina] and Iannone scored for Italy with five minutes to go. We were in a really similar position at 52 minutes against the Italians. We scored our third try to make it 22-7 … but then we kicked on and racked up 24 unanswered points, rather than conceding the initiative.

Against Wales they didn't score a point after the first half hour and were a rabble by the end of it.

So who can tell, basically! They finished strongly at home [vs England] and away [vs Sctoland] and poorly both at home [vs Italy] and away [vs Wales] this championship.

[Uncle Monty]

'I would say even level headed Munster fans (not the deranged ones on their fans' site) would find it difficult to support this team. Not saying I agree with them just taking a guess'


As a Munster fan I can't for the life of me understand anyone not wanting to support their National side, irrespective of playing personnel. Of course everyone wants to see their own provinces numbers bolstered on the Irish team but when the green jersey goes on it shouldn't matter about North, South, East or West.

Of course I also have no issue with questioning the coach's selections either as if we didn't there'd be no need for a forums such as these (although I'm currently avoiding mf.com as it's reaching hysteria levels).

To add my humble two cents worth to the debate - While I can see the rational behind bringing Madigan into the fray to up the tempo if we're chasing a game (and God forbid Sexton gets injured), I'm not sure if it's wise. France are disorganised but have pace to burn out wide (and of course in the centres with Fickou) so will be looking to play the looser, controlled chaos, type of game that Madigan does so well. Ireland will win this match by going through the many structured phases that they can now play under Joe's tutelage to wear the opposition down and strike when the inevitable holes appear in France's defensive line.

I believe the Jackson would have served this purpose a bit better. While Madigan can create a moment of magic with a double skip pass it could just as easily hit the deck and we'd quickly see the now familiar sight of Yoann Huget's curly bangs sliding over the try line.

Either way I'm behind the team 100%....I only wish it wasn't still 24 hours away!

[fourthirtythree]

I'm really excited okay? Thing is people usually discuss selection (there was never going to be a discussion as we knew exactly who was in the team) and argue over it (usually on provincial/political grounds).

The discussion of tactics on Against the Head on Monday was really interesting. They argued that with French conditioning not what it could be that the same tactics used against Italy would be used again. I'm not sure they're correct in that. For a start there is the fact that France have actually finished games stronger. Partially no doubt because of the subs they brought on but also because maybe their conditioning isn't as bad as the Irish media say it is.
Secondly we won't, simply won't, get that amount of possession away to France. No way. Even if their lineout and scrum haven't improved mightily. Which no doubt they will have.

I imagine Darcy wasn't supposed to play last week in the original plan. Bod won't finish the match on imagines. So Madigan may be required at 12. Hope there's no thought of him at full back...

They've finished a couple of games strongly, and they've finished a couple of games poorly. Obviously they had a grandstand finish against England and two subs had a huge part to play. Szarzewski's role in Fickou's try was outstanding – outside break, drew two men, got the pass away, stayed on his feet to support and then shepherded the covering English defender so that Fickou could get around under the sticks: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZOkUv3FnA4

They also marched down to within a couple of metres of the Scottish posts and earned the penalty to win it.

Against Italy they finished like a turd. Completely turned off after they went 30-3 up on 52 minutes. The last half hour was all Italy. Furno dropped the ball close to the line, Botes' held himself up over the line [i.e. his own arm prevented him grounding it], the French had one guy red-carded [Slimani], another guy yellow carded [Vahaamahina] and Iannone scored for Italy with five minutes to go. We were in a really similar position at 52 minutes against the Italians. We scored our third try to make it 22-7 … but then we kicked on and racked up 24 unanswered points, rather than conceding the initiative.

Against Wales they didn't score a point after the first half hour and were a rabble by the end of it.

So who can tell, basically! They finished strongly at home [vs England] and away [vs Sctoland] and poorly both at home [vs Italy] and away [vs Wales] this championship.

I think my point stands that their conditioning will not have them collapsing at the end. They may of course do what they did against Italy, but the notion that we have to stay in touch and they'll be in trouble at the end doesn't withstand scrutiny. I may be over simplifying what Quinlan, Jackman, and O'Sullivan said. But that was the thrust of it.

I do think though that everyone is saying "who knows"? The old reliable cliché of "which France will turn up" is getting well worn this week.

[IanD]

The House is sorted ahead of tomorrow.



The Dogs have no interest as Rugby sacres them. I do tend to shout a lot.


Just my 2 cents on clubs providing players to the Irish team. This is the flag I had outside the house in 2009 and I drove up and down the Main Street in Wicklow Town hanging out the window of the car waving. There were 5 Leinster players playing that day.

Tomorrow if all goes well I again will drive though the Main St waving the same flag. Will I drive further because there are more than 5 Leinster players playing. No.

It does not matter how many players come from which Club all that matters is that those chosen turn up perform to the best of their combined abilities and WIN.

Come on IRELAND.

[Flash Gordon]

Yeah and instead of caps, we could have participation medals, and instead of scoring tries and points, there could be 30 balls on the pitch so everyone has one to play with.

Since the grand slam season, Leinster have played Munster 11 times, winning 8 and Ulster 10 times, winning 7, picking up two HECs, an Amlin, a Pro12 and reaching a further two finals in that time frame. Munster have won a Pro12 and Ulster have reached a HEC and Pro12 final. Leinster have been completely dominant in Irish rugby and its only right that the vast majority of players come from the province. Its not bias if they're the best players, which they clearly are. This is the international side, not the community games.

Bang on Dave. You pick the best Irish players for the internationall team, you can't be moving into sympathy or quota picks if you want to be a world class team. I'd also add that its not just about provincial performance its about the type of rugby that Joe wants to play and the mentality he wants in the team. This requires a way of playing, an attitude to the game and a level of skills and pace that some of the other alternatives just don't have at the moment. And I don't just mean pace in terms of sprint speed I mean it in terms of offloading, speed at the breakdown, the pace which the ball moves through the hands and identifying when its on and making quick decisions.

Fascinating posts both, but also highly irrelevant.

The point is that teams which have skewed representation are going to be viewed with a greater sense of belonging by some more than others.I don't offer any solutions/fixes/quotas/remedies other than a hope that the skewed situation normalises itself sooner rather than later. I'm prepared to believe people who say they don't care, though I would be highly sceptical that applies to a majority. A quick look at the number of provincially-biased posts in the International Rugby sections of this site, mf.com, uafc.co.uk should tell you all you need to know. And that's looking at the more "engaged" rugby fan. Wait till you get out into the casual fan base and you'll soon find out whether everyone's the same in a green jersey.

Some of the people on here showing mock outrage at my opinion are plenty guilty of howling with disgust when Leinster player X got overlooked in favour of Munster player Y.

I can't speak for some or the outraged majority, but in my opinion, the Ireland coach should be primarily interested in picking the side he believes is best capable of winning the next match. There is no solution beyond that except to pick players who are not the best players with the best skills to execute the game plan.

As for the casual/engaged fan, in reality many want to have it both ways - provincial representation AND performance - and the two aren't compatible because you end up in a place where you are picking inferior players. That's why the Irish head coach has been a tricky balance. Gatland got shafted because he didn't play the political game and O'Sullivan and Kidney got shafted because their teams didn't win. I think Joe isn't bothered about sentiment, he just wants to win the 6 nations.

[fourthirtythree]

I believe the Jackson would have served this purpose a bit better. While Madigan can create a moment of magic with a double skip pass it could just as easily hit the deck and we'd quickly see the now familiar sight of Yoann Huget's curly bangs sliding over the try line.

Either way I'm behind the team 100%....I only wish it wasn't still 24 hours away!

And a large proportion of people here (me included) would agree with you. I would prefer Jackson and am disappointed given that I think he should be rewarded for his form. I thought that any half back substitution in this 6N was a "break glass in case of emergency" one and that both the starters were to stay on until the game was won. I think last week showed that both have the ability to play and we should worry a little less about that.

As for the provincial skew: again, Ireland are best served if the pool of players is larger. Obviously there is the belief the coach has in who can execute what he wants. I trust Schmidt as he's proved me wrong about selection often (though not infallibly). I've put up with dog's abuse in real life for supporting Gatland's decision to pick Davies (which doesn't mean that BOD isn't a hugely better player) and similarly Schmidt's choices have been justified. I suppose he gets a pass in his first few months in charge but as his tenure extends it would surely be preferable if he could integrate more players, some of whom seem in a straight talent context to be better than those he is currently selecting. I would be surprised and disappointed if those players didn't take their chance and prove they can do what he wants. I don't doubt that they will be selected then.

But it is not wrong to suggest that it would be preferable if the team was more representative of the sport in the island.

But nobody is saying that that is the job Schmidt has (a la SA for example): his job is to win and just as we were ecstatic to support a grand slam winning team in '09, supporters of other provinces will be ecstatic with a championship winning team if we get to celebrate that tomorrow.

[fourthirtythree]

Lovely try from Jackson from a Tommy Bowe break there...

[Raydollard]

I remember when Ulster had a job to get but a few players on the team but their fans still turned up to cheer on the Irish team. You put out whom you think is the best and live and die by that. That's the way it should be. I think that Joe has picked the best as he sees it but I would have Zebo on the wing (if not Tommy as well).

I don't go along with the lazy view that the French are cr@p and that they lack fitness or proper conditioning. I think that we will do well to win tomorrow and we are probably not the favourites.

[neilinboston]

I remember when Ulster had a job to get but a few players on the team but their fans still turned up to cheer on the Irish team. You put out whom you think is the best and live and die by that. That's the way it should be. I think that Joe has picked the best as he sees it but I would have Zebo on the wing (if not Tommy as well).

I don't go along with the lazy view that the French are cr@p and that they lack fitness or proper conditioning. I think that we will do well to win tomorrow and we are probably not the favourites.

are you feeling ok? that was an entire post without mentioning Madigan!

[Raydollard]

I like entertaining the children on this site from time to time

[munster#1]

I know for a fact that Ireland will win this one, there is a life long rugby fan who rarely missed a rugby match, while following shannon, munster and Ireland, around the world, who will be watching this match from afar after losing his lengthy battle with illness yesterday. Who will surely have an influence on the result.

Ireland to win by 22 points.

[domhnallj]

I know for a fact that Ireland will win this one, there is a life long rugby fan who rarely missed a rugby match, while following shannon, munster and Ireland, around the world, who will be watching this match from afar after losing his lengthy battle with illness yesterday. Who will surely have an influence on the result.

Ireland to win by 22 points.

Condolences on your loss.

[JB1973]

in the bag, playing really well now and trimble is in my fantasy team

[Dublinner]

Absolute class by Murray for that try.

[Dublinner]

Absolute piss poor clean out by Toner handed that penAlty to France. Can't afford to take the foot off the gas for a second.

[JB1973]

close the game down boys, line out, maul. scrum,penalty

keep it tight 1 point is enough

[Raydollard]

We may yet win but after New Zealand, England and now France, it's time to give Johnny a rest.

[Dublinner]

Simply not good enough by Johnny but I wouldn't bring Madigan on in a million years. Too much of a big ask. Johnny will settle down & we will still win. Need the leaders to stand up. I think they will.