Ireland v Italy

[Broken Wing]

The first 60 minutes against Italy are always harder than the last 20

I think you're doing the Italians a disservice there. That certainly used to be the case but they've improved greatly.

[kendalgerty]

Ok even taking place kicking out of it. His kicking from hand has been poor, his breaks can be counted on one hand and bar the italy game his game management has been poor, and even against italy it was patchy.

Look i don't mean to sound as harsh as my comments must read. I just do not think he has reached the level that some believe

Hmmm, I'm not sure you judge a 10 on how many line breaks he makes. The big positive Sexton has brought to Ireland - even when he's been kicking badly - is his aggressive passing on the line. Taking the ball flat on the gainline and putting others into space. Witneses the pass to put Tommy Bowe in for his second on saturday. Not many fly-halves can execute that.

I agree his kicking from hand has been loose, and his place kicking needs to stay at the level it was at on saturday. I have no doubt he has the talent to be a dominant player at this level, and I expect he will be Lions 10 (Priestland is totally overrated).

[suisse]

This has nothing to do with him being a fly half though, and everything to do with Ireland insisting that the kicker must be the fly half. I'm going to keep pointing this out until the Irish public look around and see they are the only country left that insist on the two being related - even boring, staid, unadventerous old England had Farrell kicking when he wasn't playing fly half.

Yes but it's imperfect too. We don't produce guys like Ruan Pienaar who can play at the highest level at 9, 10 and 15 (probably 11-14 too). Specialised positions, but he has been capped in all for his country. France like to rotate their 9s and 10s - Parra, Yachvilli, Michalek and JBE could fit right in at both SH and FH - and SA have the brilliant Francois Hougaard. In Ireland Keith Earls is seen as needing to find a position because it seems, like Lukey before him, we don't like players skilled enough to play in a range of positions.

But...with the OH, I think it is different. All the players mentioned there are kickers of varying quality (Freddie let's down the party). England's "boring, staid, unadventurous" game plan has nothing to do with Farrell being selected at 12 because Charlie could have assumed the kicking duties. Forget about the days when French wingers used to throw the ball into the line out and John Eales was place kicking. Most of the teams have their 10 as their primary kicker or, as in the case of Wales, they just happen to have someone more accurate than their pretty good 10. Australia and Cooper is the odd man out.

If we can't produce players in other positions like McF (and he shouldn't be shoe-horned in somewhere to compensate for Sexton's kicking) then that's a separate issue altogether. But it shouldn't take away from the fact that Sexton's ratio at international level is not high enough

[Golf Man]

The first 60 minutes against Italy are always harder than the last 20

I think you're doing the Italians a disservice there. That certainly used to be the case but they've improved greatly.

Its a generalisation sure and its not always the case but if you look at their record over the last 5 years I would imagine that that scenario plays out more often than not - they always have 1/2 games where they stick with the opposition and either win or just lose (France and us last year, England this year) but they still have more games where they fall away after 60 minutes - seems to be that if they are not in touch after 60 minutes that they lose heart and fall away (particularly out wide) - its exactly what happened at the weekend - Reddan contributed in that he was able to exploit them - would he have been able to exploit them as much in the first half - I have my doubts.

To my mind the sub that had the most impact at the weekend was Ryan - some really good agressive carries, stole a lineout, lovely off load that nearly resulted in a try

[OTT]

Golfman all I ask for is that all positions get treated equally you may think that people on here go over the top about Murray, for me its just more of a what has he done to get where he is? Is he a once in a life time talent that demands selection ? He had the jersey what does he have to do to lose it? For what its worth most of the team picks itself again unfortunately (wish there were more people fighting for places).

Deccis preferred team on Form:

1. Healy - Yep no one else putting up their hands unfortunately.

2. Best - Yep no one near him for consistency.

3. Ross - Yep again no other decent alternatives unfortunately.

4. DOC - No was fine against Italy but form pick is DR who played at a higher level when he came on as he has done all season imo.

5. POC - Yep playing super great to see.

6. Ferris - Yep a monster in carrying and in defence.

7. O'Brien - Maybe being played out of position which limits his effectiveness is O'Mahoney a 7 either, call could go either way on form (DK will go with O'Brien I imagine), O'B a young guy who will regain his best form but if he doesnt get the nod I couldnt complain. Some impact player from the bench.

8. Heaslip - Yep easy target for certain sections of the 'Irish fan club' who love to see people carry (even if we dont have the ball) but imo his work rate is emmense and I dont see anyone else putting up their hands.


9. Murray - No has had a few chances, more then most. he is a young guy starting for his province but so what. His pass is pretty labourous (spelling?) the same thing that has stopped Boss's Irish career so why is he different, because he is young? Its a position where we lack real class imo but why not go with form ie Reddan (who will probably do something stupid and lose the jersey before the end of the championship himself) or has Murray become one of the untouchables? If so why?

10. Sexton - Yep ROG hasnt been near his greatest form for Munster despite what certain secrtions of the 'Irish fan club' would have you believe, he had a couple of Oscar scenes in what has been by his high standards an average season. Sexton is the man with the jersey who also isnt at his best. Might play his way off the team with form might not.

11. Trimble - Yep playing well no alternatives

12. Darcy - Yep not getting any younger but no alternatives, McF in my eyes the only credible alternative being picked behind him for Leinster (maybe because he isnt as good as Darce??) hampers this.

13. Earls - Yep might get found out in the centre might not, the jersey is his to lose. Could bad form play him off the team? I like many believe it wouldnt. None the less I hope it doesnt come to that and he does well.

14. Bowe - Yep, obviously a class player some iffy form over the previous 12months which seems to have been put right.

15. Kearney - Yep, in super form at the minute, attacking with menace, I remember when he first came into the Leinster team on the wing after leaving school and Cheika saying something along the lines of him always wanting the ball in training or in a match and thats what all great players want. I guess a free run from injury have made a huge diffence to his confidence. No alternatives either.



So of the current incumbents theres 3 contentious decisions to be made imo. One of them a guy who is 2nd choice for his province, one of them a guy who has done nothing with his career so far other then being built up by the media (not his fault) and the 3rd a guy who isnt hitting the very high standards he set for himself 12 months ago.

Let form be the precursor for all 3 positions? Surely thats fair?

[Frederico]

I don't want to knock Murray but he did all the bad stuff that I would normally associate with O'Leary when clearing the ball from the ruck. He didn't just check to see if the coast was clear he used a frickin periscope as well.

[West Brit]

This has nothing to do with him being a fly half though, and everything to do with Ireland insisting that the kicker must be the fly half. I'm going to keep pointing this out until the Irish public look around and see they are the only country left that insist on the two being related - even boring, staid, unadventerous old England had Farrell kicking when he wasn't playing fly half.

Yes but it's imperfect too. We don't produce guys like Ruan Pienaar who can play at the highest level at 9, 10 and 15 (probably 11-14 too). Specialised positions, but he has been capped in all for his country. France like to rotate their 9s and 10s - Parra, Yachvilli, Michalek and JBE could fit right in at both SH and FH - and SA have the brilliant Francois Hougaard. In Ireland Keith Earls is seen as needing to find a position because it seems, like Lukey before him, we don't like players skilled enough to play in a range of positions.

But...with the OH, I think it is different. All the players mentioned there are kickers of varying quality (Freddie let's down the party). England's "boring, staid, unadventurous" game plan has nothing to do with Farrell being selected at 12 because Charlie could have assumed the kicking duties. Forget about the days when French wingers used to throw the ball into the line out and John Eales was place kicking. Most of the teams have their 10 as their primary kicker or, as in the case of Wales, they just happen to have someone more accurate than their pretty good 10. Australia and Cooper is the odd man out.

If we can't produce players in other positions like McF (and he shouldn't be shoe-horned in somewhere to compensate for Sexton's kicking) then that's a separate issue altogether. But it shouldn't take away from the fact that Sexton's ratio at international level is not high enough

That's exactly what I'm trying to do - separate Sexton's kicking ratio (which has been pi$$ poor at international level compared to what he can do) and his abilities as a fly half. To be fair, posters here of both red and blue persuasions (white and green as well) tend to be a lot more nuanced than the general public and general media when looking at players' performances, even if we all disagree on performances. But the media tend to just say ROG kicked 5/5 so played well - Sexton kicked 3/5 so was poor. I was merely trying to point out that if a guy is kicking poorly at goal that is separate to his ability as a 10.

[Edna Kenny]

Does anyone have Sexton's goal kicking %? I'd be interested to know what it acutally is.

[Golf Man]

Golfman all I ask for is that all positions get treated equally you may think that people on here go over the top about Murray, for me its just more of a what has he done to get where he is? Is he a once in a life time talent that demands selection ? He had the jersey what does he have to do to lose it? For what its worth most of the team picks itself again unfortunately (wish there were more people fighting for places).

Deccis preferred team on Form:

1. Healy - Yep no one else putting up their hands unfortunately.

2. Best - Yep no one near him for consistency.

3. Ross - Yep again no other decent alternatives unfortunately.

4. DOC - No was fine against Italy but form pick is DR who played at a higher level when he came on as he has done all season imo.

5. POC - Yep playing super great to see.

6. Ferris - Yep a monster in carrying and in defence.

7. O'Brien - Maybe being played out of position which limits his effectiveness is O'Mahoney a 7 either, call could go either way on form (DK will go with O'Brien I imagine), O'B a young guy who will regain his best form but if he doesnt get the nod I couldnt complain. Some impact player from the bench.

8. Heaslip - Yep easy target for certain sections of the 'Irish fan club' who love to see people carry (even if we dont have the ball) but imo his work rate is emmense and I dont see anyone else putting up their hands.


9. Murray - No has had a few chances, more then most. he is a young guy starting for his province but so what. His pass is pretty labourous (spelling?) the same thing that has stopped Boss's Irish career so why is he different, because he is young? Its a position where we lack real class imo but why not go with form ie Reddan (who will probably do something stupid and lose the jersey before the end of the championship himself) or has Murray become one of the untouchables? If so why?

10. Sexton - Yep ROG hasnt been near his greatest form for Munster despite what certain secrtions of the 'Irish fan club' would have you believe, he had a couple of Oscar scenes in what has been by his high standards an average season. Sexton is the man with the jersey who also isnt at his best. Might play his way off the team with form might not.

11. Trimble - Yep playing well no alternatives

12. Darcy - Yep not getting any younger but no alternatives, McF in my eyes the only credible alternative being picked behind him for Leinster (maybe because he isnt as good as Darce??) hampers this.

13. Earls - Yep might get found out in the centre might not, the jersey is his to lose. Could bad form play him off the team? I like many believe it wouldnt. None the less I hope it doesnt come to that and he does well.

14. Bowe - Yep, obviously a class player some iffy form over the previous 12months which seems to have been put right.

15. Kearney - Yep, in super form at the minute, attacking with menace, I remember when he first came into the Leinster team on the wing after leaving school and Cheika saying something along the lines of him always wanting the ball in training or in a match and thats what all great players want. I guess a free run from injury have made a huge diffence to his confidence. No alternatives either.



So of the current incumbents theres 3 contentious decisions to be made imo. One of them a guy who is 2nd choice for his province, one of them a guy who has done nothing with his career so far other then being built up by the media (not his fault) and the 3rd a guy who isnt hitting the very high standards he set for himself 12 months ago.

Let form be the precursor for all 3 positions? Surely thats fair?

I'd agree with a lot of what you say but would add the following

Front Row - the first choice are pretty untouchable atm I think most would agree

Second Row - pretty much everybody agrees that Ryan should be ahead of DOC (would be interested if Foley pushes for Ryan, or if he will have any input on that side of things because I understand that Smal is a big fan of DOC (scrummaging, choke tackle, defending in the rucks etc) but Foley is obviously a fan of Ryan

Back Row - there is a problem, plain as day, not sure if POM is the answer,but SOB just doesn't seem very clever at 7 - that said no way should he be dropped - I'd have the current backrow play out the championship as starters, and maybe mix up the POM substitutions (move SOB to 8, take Heaslip off, Move SOB to 6, take Ferris off). Most importantly they should be pushing for POM to be playing 7 at Munster - I don't think he is a 7, but he could well be more of a 7 than SOB

Half Backs - Not sure where you are getting this idea that Murray has got more chances than most - he has started 5 games and come on as a sub in 3. I'm also not sure that Reddan is in as good form as you make out. He is an experienced guy with huge potential - there is a concern regarding his speed in getting the ball away ( I actually don't think its his pass, its the 1/2 seconds etc that he can take to decide) I'd also be interested what his instructions were - could well be that he was told to keep it tight and to carry more (as he is with Munster) - Kidneys tactics have been used as a defence for poor performances from Sexton, not sure why it should be any different for Murray. On Sexton he is not untouchable yet - when his goal kicking is up to Leinster standard (or if McFadden plays his way in) then he will be - like it or not we have to have a reliable goalkicker

Backs - Darcy seems untouchable but shouldn't be. Earls is currently the best option at 13, the back 3 are well ahead of their oppositions atm

Ryan for DOC is the only change that I'd make for next week

[cormac]

It's a real shame that we don't have a few midweek games in New Zealand or a Chruchill Cup type tournament this Summer as I think it's unlikely we'll see much experimentation with the international team this Summer unless it's forced by injury withdrawals, and if we're in danger of slipping out of the top 8 in the IRB rankings, we probably won't see any in November either. The benefit is that most of the up-and-comers will at least get a decent summer's rest and an opportunity for a full-on pre-season.

[suisse]

This has nothing to do with him being a fly half though, and everything to do with Ireland insisting that the kicker must be the fly half. I'm going to keep pointing this out until the Irish public look around and see they are the only country left that insist on the two being related - even boring, staid, unadventerous old England had Farrell kicking when he wasn't playing fly half.

Yes but it's imperfect too. We don't produce guys like Ruan Pienaar who can play at the highest level at 9, 10 and 15 (probably 11-14 too). Specialised positions, but he has been capped in all for his country. France like to rotate their 9s and 10s - Parra, Yachvilli, Michalek and JBE could fit right in at both SH and FH - and SA have the brilliant Francois Hougaard. In Ireland Keith Earls is seen as needing to find a position because it seems, like Lukey before him, we don't like players skilled enough to play in a range of positions.

But...with the OH, I think it is different. All the players mentioned there are kickers of varying quality (Freddie let's down the party). England's "boring, staid, unadventurous" game plan has nothing to do with Farrell being selected at 12 because Charlie could have assumed the kicking duties. Forget about the days when French wingers used to throw the ball into the line out and John Eales was place kicking. Most of the teams have their 10 as their primary kicker or, as in the case of Wales, they just happen to have someone more accurate than their pretty good 10. Australia and Cooper is the odd man out.

If we can't produce players in other positions like McF (and he shouldn't be shoe-horned in somewhere to compensate for Sexton's kicking) then that's a separate issue altogether. But it shouldn't take away from the fact that Sexton's ratio at international level is not high enough

That's exactly what I'm trying to do - separate Sexton's kicking ratio (which has been pi$$ poor at international level compared to what he can do) and his abilities as a fly half. To be fair, posters here of both red and blue persuasions (white and green as well) tend to be a lot more nuanced than the general public and general media when looking at players' performances, even if we all disagree on performances. But the media tend to just say ROG kicked 5/5 so played well - Sexton kicked 3/5 so was poor. I was merely trying to point out that if a guy is kicking poorly at goal that is separate to his ability as a 10.

Yeah, tbh man, I don't know what point I was trying to make. I was copying and pasting different lines for about 10 minutes but just gave up and left it at that. I'm not even sure who I am talking to really. It's fun just quoting someone and bringing in your own random rationale to confuse the situation

[ronk]

9. Murray - No has had a few chances, more then most. he is a young guy starting for his province but so what. His pass is pretty labourous (spelling?) the same thing that has stopped Boss's Irish career so why is he different, because he is young? Its a position where we lack real class imo but why not go with form ie Reddan (who will probably do something stupid and lose the jersey before the end of the championship himself) or has Murray become one of the untouchables? If so why?

Kidney is a fan. He likes Murray and what he brings to the game. He's (like EOS) never been a huge fan of Reddan.

Reddan was let slip from Munster and became a thorn by actually turning out to be good. He was this player who they got rid of but ended up being forced to play. Reddan has his style and he's good at what he does, but it's not what Kidney wants. He gave Murray his first international start in the World Cup and used a weak performance as a sub against Oz as a justification to throw him in.

[Donny B.]

Anybody getting a horrible sense of deja vu with the Murray-Reddan arguments?

Remember the mantra (repeated ad nauseum by GT) about how we couldn't pick Reddan in the World Cup against Australia because we just couldn't do without O'Leary's 'physicality' to deal with Rocky and co. Remember how that was exposed as utter bullsh*t? You'd swear the scrum-half was the main tackler on the team listening to this shite.

Same ould shite now being spouted about Murray's supposed invaluable physicality which will be so desperately needed against the French. When will people learn?

If the scrum-half can't get the team playing to the tempo it needs, then no amount of physicality is going to make any difference. He's still going to slow the team down and be a liability.

[Peg Leg]

Anybody getting a horrible sense of deja vu with the Murray-Reddan arguments?

Remember the mantra (repeated ad nauseum by GT) about how we couldn't pick Reddan in the World Cup against Australia because we just couldn't do without O'Leary's 'physicality' to deal with Rocky and co. Remember how that was exposed as utter bullsh*t? You'd swear the scrum-half was the main tackler on the team listening to this shite.

Same ould shite now being spouted about Murray's supposed invaluable physicality which will be so desperately needed against the French. When will people learn?

If the scrum-half can't get the team playing to the tempo it needs, then no amount of physicality is going to make any difference. He's still going to slow the team down and be a liability.

SOB for the 9 Jersey! you heard it here first!!

[OTT]

Kidneys tactics have been used as a defence for poor performances from Sexton, not sure why it should be any different for Murray. On Sexton he is not untouchable yet

And how many times has Sexton been dropped in this time, too many for me to recall off hand. If Sexton plays shite there is an alternative same goes for Murray, no??

[Edna Kenny]

SOB for the 9 Jersey! you heard it here first!!

Don't joke! Italy played Mauro Bergamasco at 9 in 2009 and it ended in tears.

[8M LEINSTAW]

Ahh but SOB is from Tulla. Positions 1-10 do the same thing down there. Ruck, Maul and kick ahead (any head). 11-15 are for getting the ball back from the next field or sharing their shampoo with you in the showers after.

It's the same for the GAA teams down there.

Sean can play 1-10 no problem.

[berniemac67]

Kidneys tactics have been used as a defence for poor performances from Sexton, not sure why it should be any different for Murray. On Sexton he is not untouchable yet

And how many times has Sexton been dropped in this time, too many for me to recall off hand. If Sexton plays shite there is an alternative same goes for Murray, no??

the problem here isn't sexton or murray, or even the obvious double standard and inconsistency in how their below par performances are dealt with.

the problem is that there is a perception that this double standard and inconsistency is somehow linked with the players' provincial affiliations.

unless of course dk actually believes the "physicality" argument, in which case he's even worse at his job than i think he is.

ps. interesting that the physicality argument doesn't count when selecting anybody but 9

[hugonaut]

Anybody getting a horrible sense of deja vu with the Murray-Reddan arguments?

Remember the mantra (repeated ad nauseum by GT) about how we couldn't pick Reddan in the World Cup against Australia because we just couldn't do without O'Leary's 'physicality' to deal with Rocky and co. Remember how that was exposed as utter bullsh*t? You'd swear the scrum-half was the main tackler on the team listening to this shite.

Same ould shite now being spouted about Murray's supposed invaluable physicality which will be so desperately needed against the French. When will people learn?

If the scrum-half can't get the team playing to the tempo it needs, then no amount of physicality is going to make any difference. He's still going to slow the team down and be a liability.

Absolutely Donny.

A couple of things are irritating me about this situation – firstly, Murray looks like he's actively going backwards. It looks like he wants to play like Tomás O'Leary. The chap has to learn [or relearn] that there is absolutely no situation where dwelling on the ball at the base of a ruck when there's a valid first receiver available adds value. Not a single situation. All it does is allows the opposition to perfect their defensive line-up, catch their breath and gather their wits.

He has a way, way better pass than O'Leary, and when he broke into the Munster team [less than a year ago] he was firing out the passes like nobody's business.

Secondly, aimlessly taking the ball into contact is a terrible, terrible idea. If you think the break is on, break with conviction. Go for the line break. Do not take the ball around the corner like you're a tired prop, or amble sideways and get tackled. You're not expected to be a 'willing carrier' – you're expected to be a strike-runner, albeit one closer to the breakdown than usual. If not, you upset the tempo of the entire team.

Murray is having some teething problems at halfback, just like Sexton has had his own problems. Time is on his side, but the idea that you can't drop him when he's playing badly because he's young is wrong-headed.

[Golf Man]

Kidneys tactics have been used as a defence for poor performances from Sexton, not sure why it should be any different for Murray. On Sexton he is not untouchable yet

And how many times has Sexton been dropped in this time, too many for me to recall off hand. If Sexton plays shite there is an alternative same goes for Murray, no??

the problem here isn't sexton or murray, or even the obvious double standard and inconsistency in how their below par performances are dealt with.

the problem is that there is a perception that this double standard and inconsistency is somehow linked with the players' provincial affiliations.

unless of course dk actually believes the "physicality" argument, in which case he's even worse at his job than i think he is.

ps. interesting that the physicality argument doesn't count when selecting anybody but 9

This "perception" is just that - people who want to believe that there is a provincial bias - its bullshit. As I've said before if you look at MFs you get a number of people claiming there is a complete bias against Munster/towards Leinster within RTE/Sky. You look on here and its the complete opposite. Both are obviously delusional but its that mindset that buys into this provincial bias cr@p.

What there is, is a particular way that the coach wants to play, and a particular player that fits that way of playing (DOC v Ryan is the best example here). There is also loyalty to players who have been there and done that (Darcy and DOC spring to mind)

I don't necessarily agree with this method but its not uncommon - plenty of coaches have this approach

On the Sexton being dropped, Murray not being dropped scenario I don't particularly disagree but you don't mention

- Sexton has started more games than ROG since he came into the squad
- ROG is a far more proven performer at international level than Reddan
- That old chestnut - place kicking - the single biggest reason that Sexton has been dropped a number of times