What do you want/expect from the 6N?

[Golf Man]

Serious question - was talking to some friends over the weekend and there was a real division regarding what we should be trying to achieve in the 6N this year

1. Win it (or at least attempt to) - regardless of style, selection etc - this would build a winning mentality again
2. Develop the team - bring in younger players, look to the future and wif we lose a couple of matches so be it
3. (Get Out Clause) Be comptetive and bring in some young players - not a complete clean out as losing matches will have a long term negative affect

I would guess that the majority would go for 3 - just intetrested s'all

[fourthirtythree]

To be honest I'd go for one. But not regardless of style etc. we need to actually develop the attack if we are to win the thing. It's too early to be building up for the world cup and the necessary changes are enforced on us.

The pack largely picks itself bar the second row where Ryan McCarthy Touhy and Toner need to have a chance to duke it out to partner O'Connell or be on the bench.
Back row picks itself if fit but the place on the bench is up for grabs, as it should be anyway if Leamy was fit or Jennings playing first choice (and it should be neither of them).
I have absolutely no doubt as to who our best 9 and 10 are right now.
11 is Earls, 15 is Kearney.
Bowe is probably 14. Trimble has to be in the mix, 13 is up for grabs and that's not a brave choice! 12 is up for grabs too.

Where I see new people coming in it's simply because the older players are not there any more. 12 would be the only one with an incumbent still playing at the highest level.

That said, like the European Cup this year, I don't see the quality being great. It's France's to lose really.

[Leezer]

I dont care about winning it. We've just competed in the RWC and it's the start of a 4 year cycle, it's got to be out with the tried and tested and in with some new blood.

there is no shame in losing 2 or 3 matches where we have given some new faces valuable experience.

give ROG his farewell match and then tell him to jog on.

[Golf Man]

To be honest I'd go for one. But not regardless of style etc. we need to actually develop the attack if we are to win the thing. It's too early to be building up for the world cup and the necessary changes are enforced on us.

The pack largely picks itself bar the second row where Ryan McCarthy Touhy and Toner need to have a chance to duke it out to partner O'Connell or be on the bench. - agree completely - Ryan is probably ahead at the moment - I'd have Tuohy on teh bench but don't mind really
Back row picks itself if fit but the place on the bench is up for grabs, as it should be anyway if Leamy was fit or Jennings playing first choice (and it should be neither of them). - agreed - think POM/Henry/McL is the order here
I have absolutely no doubt as to who our best 9 and 10 are right now - 10 is obvious although Sexton needs to step up at intl level - he hasn't imosed himself like he has with Leinster ( I think its a competition thing). Absolutely no dout who our best 9 is - you must be the only one! I think Murray, some think Reddan, some think Boss, some even think Marshall
11 is Earls, 15 is Kearney.
Bowe is probably 14. Trimble has to be in the mix, 13 is up for grabs and that's not a brave choice! 12 is up for grabs too. - think TRimble has to 11 now the way he is playing - hugely impressed at the weekend and he is scoring. 12 is Darcy/McFadden/Wallace (prob Darcy as he is the incumbent and playing there for Leinster), 13 is Cave/Earls (prob Earls) although I'd go with Cave (not sure of update on his injury though)

Where I see new people coming in it's simply because the older players are not there any more. 12 would be the only one with an incumbent still playing at the highest level.

That said, like the European Cup this year, I don't see the quality being great. It's France's to lose really - definitely France's to lose, although they could well slip up in Cardiff, which will leave it more open.

[johng]

To be honest I'd go for one. But not regardless of style etc. we need to actually develop the attack if we are to win the thing. It's too early to be building up for the world cup and the necessary changes are enforced on us.

The pack largely picks itself bar the second row where Ryan McCarthy Touhy and Toner need to have a chance to duke it out to partner O'Connell or be on the bench.
Back row picks itself if fit but the place on the bench is up for grabs, as it should be anyway if Leamy was fit or Jennings playing first choice (and it should be neither of them).
I have absolutely no doubt as to who our best 9 and 10 are right now.
11 is Earls, 15 is Kearney.
Bowe is probably 14. Trimble has to be in the mix, 13 is up for grabs and that's not a brave choice! 12 is up for grabs too.

Where I see new people coming in it's simply because the older players are not there any more. 12 would be the only one with an incumbent still playing at the highest level.

That said, like the European Cup this year, I don't see the quality being great. It's France's to lose really.

Wow! The only man in the country there I'd say. Must be O'Leary and Humphries then?

Trimble playing well and Luke out (perhaps) makes Dekko's mind up for him. Earls at 13 and Trimble at 11.

[fourthirtythree]

I agree with you on most of that - Ryan is definitely ahead for me at the moment. I haven't seen enough of POM to really say about him but what I have is impressive and I really wouldn't have a problem with him there.

Sexton hasn't performed for Ireland, most particularly in his place kicking. Don't understand it but he and the coaching staff need to sort that out. His general play hasn't been helped by playing with O'Leary. O'Leary isn't such a liability for O'Gara as he's standing back. I thought Murray was far, far worse than most Irish people appear to have thought during the world cup. No huge rush to start him again for Ireland. I would still have Boss ahead of him as I would during the summer, and Reddan ahead of both. And I am confident that that is the right order right now. End of the season? Different story. Hopefully he'll be starting on the tour.

[berniemac67]

want to win it all.
expect to win 3 playing the same shite as last year.

ps. i don't get the "sexton hasn't performed for ireland" sentiment. he missed a few kicks. if what he he's done to date constitutes 'not performing' then i'd say we don't have more than 2 or 3 international class players on our island. people need to be sharpen up their memories.

[Leinster Exile]

I dont care about winning it. We've just competed in the RWC and it's the start of a 4 year cycle, it's got to be out with the tried and tested and in with some new blood.

there is no shame in losing 2 or 3 matches where we have given some new faces valuable experience.

give ROG his farewell match and then tell him to jog on.

Thats our first choice Stand off you are talking about there

[Golf Man]

want to win it all.
expect to win 3 playing the same shite as last year.

ps. i don't get the "sexton hasn't performed for ireland" sentiment. he missed a few kicks. if what he he's done to date constitutes 'not performing' then i'd say we don't have more than 2 or 3 international class players on our island. people need to be sharpen up their memories.

Bernie - Sexton has really imposed himself at Heineken Cup level - he hasn't transferred this to international level on any kind of a regular basis. His had some good games, some ok games some bad. He is being spoken up as a leader possible future captain, so I think he needs to step up. I don't know the reason but he seems to allow the competition with ROG get to him and he seems to allow missed kicks get to him also (ROG used do this but really got rid of it). He is not a rookie any more and needs to make himself undroppable - which at teh minute he hasn't done

[Oldschool]

Serious question - was talking to some friends over the weekend and there was a real division regarding what we should be trying to achieve in the 6N this year

1. Win it (or at least attempt to) - regardless of style, selection etc - this would build a winning mentality again
2. Develop the team - bring in younger players, look to the future and wif we lose a couple of matches so be it
3. (Get Out Clause) Be comptetive and bring in some young players - not a complete clean out as losing matches will have a long term negative affect

I would guess that the majority would go for 3 - just intetrested s'all

1 would work, if it was properly applied. ie The best available 22/23 is selected and proper squad rotation applied.
For example, this would mean dumping DOC from the match day 22, which effectively gives you the longer term benefits that option three would provide.
Leamy's unavailability is an other opportunity in this regard. A minor variation on the theme would be to choose the younger player (The older option would have to be old to be selected for the next WC) all other things being equal.
McF instead of D'Arcy would be a good example, McF for Bowe would be a bad example as Bowe is not much older than McF and should make the next WC, injury permitting.
Also a modified option three, wherein the coach actually makes use of his bench would give you an hybrid option of 2/3.
For example POC will be nearly 36 come the next WC, so we need insurance. Therefore his replacement should be gradually introduced, rather than as happened with Hayes/Ross, a panic selection in the run up season to the WC.
While an overall selection strategy is required, some games will allow for more experimentation.
The style will be determined by the fact that Murray will be at SH. Ergo we get 10 man rugby.

[ribs]

Good question - a poll might be useful. I'd happily give up the chance to win it if:
a) we establish a style that takes account of the laws of the game and our traditional rugby strengths (e.g the way Scots are so good at the pick and go game), and have some decent back play. The aim is still a semi in the next RWC.
b) we experiment in the positions where we don't have world class players (9, 13 and 2 in particular) and pick the other positions to match a) based on form.
c) we put game changers on the bench - not injury cover

ps. let's leave the ROG/Sexton discussions to another thread Golfman. Don't ruin a good thread that you started yourself.

[Peg Leg]

I would like to see
1) our backs involved in a planned attacking move.
2) an acknowledgement of the Openside role
3) DK to time his squad selections to coincide with progress- competition is king.
4) no player confidence assassinations ala Luke
5) 3 Wins
6) Ferris & SOB not being run into the ground!

[Golf Man]

Good question - a poll might be useful. I'd happily give up the chance to win it if:
a) we establish a style that takes account of the laws of the game and our traditional rugby strengths (e.g the way Scots are so good at the pick and go game), and have some decent back play. The aim is still a semi in the next RWC. - I'd agree but not sure if this is really dependent on selecting current/future players - think you can do this with both set ups

b) we experiment in the positions where we don't have world class players (9, 13 and 2 in particular) and pick the other positions to match a) based on form. - absolutely on 13 (and 12 for that matter), 9 possibly , but I think either Reddan/Murray needs a run of games with Sexton, not chopping and changing again, 2 - I'd take Best above pretty much any hooker in teh 6N at the moment - great form, great leader, great in the tight and seems to have sorted out throwing

c) we put game changers on the bench - not injury cover - agree to a certain extent bench should be Cronin/Court/Tuohy or McCarthy/POM/Reddan/ROG/Earls - this has a lot of game changers - we don't have a game changing prop and whoever is BR replacement will be a step down from the starting 3 (that said POM can absolutely be a game changer)

ps. let's leave the ROG/Sexton discussions to another thread Golfman. Don't ruin a good thread that you started yourself. - I'll try I promise!

[Leezer]

One of our goals in the coming years must be to assemble a squad or at least a starting XV to beat the NZ All Blacks in a test match

[Dexter]

Think we should forget about long term planning for the RWC as it never works!
Just play our best players and gradually introduce the younger brigade to international rugby.

[Fireworks]

There is one minor spanner in the works for developing young players this year etc. I believe that the world cup seeding is decided on your world ranking at the end of this year. So it will most likely be safe selection with little if any young players getting a look in unless the issue is forced by injury.

The only area where there might be change is 13 and the bench. I hope Earls is left on the wing where he is a great finisher and not brought in to 13.

[Ruckedtobits]

What about the following options:

1. Agreeing with the Senior Players why we lost to Wales and deciding what tactics will beat them on Feb 5th;
2. Talking with Joe Schmidt & Dumper how they would go about playing and beating a French team that has been playing non-stop for the past 17 months;
3. Take it from there

Ireland should forget this nonsense about a World Cup in four years time. We could only win it if at least four others teams (England, SouthAfrica, New Zealand & France) screw up. The winner almost loses money. The 6 Nations is winnable because there is no dominant team in Northern Europe at present and whilst we are not at our best by standards of recent years, our players have got used to winning regularly against the best players in Europe. Winning is a habit and we've acquired it at provincial level. It may be just about to stick at international level.

[Broken Wing]

What I want:
- Eddie O'Kidney to overlook as many Leinster players as possible

What I expect:
- A triple Crown and a loss to France (because Wales are overrated, Scotland are muck and England are at sixes and sevens)
- More of the same dull negative rugby that we've seen under this management
- To have to retrain the players in offloading and the like once they get back to Leinster

[Broken Wing]

Ireland should forget this nonsense about a World Cup in four years time. We could only win it if at least four others teams (England, SouthAfrica, New Zealand & France) screw up.

Could not disagree more. With a decent coaching set up we would have made the final last year. With a decent coaching set up we could make the final in 2015. Ireland has no shortage of decent players playing excellent rugby week in week out for their provinces and clubs. That we fail again and again at international level is down to the coaches.

[Golf Man]

Ireland should forget this nonsense about a World Cup in four years time. We could only win it if at least four others teams (England, SouthAfrica, New Zealand & France) screw up.

Could not disagree more. With a decent coaching set up we would have made the final last year. With a decent coaching set up we could make the final in 2015. Ireland has no shortage of decent players playing excellent rugby week in week out for their provinces and clubs. That we fail again and again at international level is down to the coaches.

You could literally argue this all day but to disolve players of blame completely is nuts. I am firmly of the belief that coaching, tactics etc are hugely hugely important, but also that atthe end of the day you have 15 guys out on the field - and the coach isn't one of them.

Last year is a prime example - we won our group for the first time in the World Cup and beat a southern hemisphere team for the first time in the WC - facts are that the coaching can't have been that bad. We lost because Wales were better on the day - coaching absolutely played its part in this, but so did the players

Also we arguably do have a shortage of players - there is a serioous drop off in talent when you get down to second/third choice players - on this level we cannot compete with England/France/New Zealand/South Africa

While the coach is absolutely key, when it comes down to the last 5 minutes of a tight game, I'm not sure that the coach is the deciding factor. Good example of this is McGahan - he is nowhere near as bad as some Munster fans would make out but do I give him all the credit for 4 close wins in the HC this year? He deserves some credit but POC and ROG deserve just as much