Outhalf death match (Sexton power vacuum)

[ronk]

We all love a good outhalf debate.

This time it's different. The champ has vacated the throne with all his challengers vanquished.

I think Burns and Carty both have a tight grip on their provinces and little chance of sitting atop the depth chart. Slight changes coming from the direction of Flannery but probably unlikely. There aren't any overseas options (Jackson isn't one). I don't see Hanrahan doing it but maybe it all comes together like it did for Cooney.

So it's gonna come down to who wins at Munster, who wins at Leinster and who the final choice is (which could be some else entirely at first given Faz).

Munster have lost Healy. Carbery is out of favour, injured for too much of his shot at making an impression and not all that good when he actually played.

It's certainly there for the taking for Crowley. He's also the most recent option to play outhalf for Ireland. But he's inexperienced and rose faster than expected given his form. Controlling a game for 80 minutes is harder than charging around for 20 minutes at the end, as Carbery found out.

Leinster have lost Sexton, long term captain. Ross Byrne is experienced enough and is well proven at the top level, he's also not a fashionable option, so the IRFU will keep looking for alternatives for as long as they pick him.

This favours Crowley, but they also want to win, so Ross can't be discounted. In any event they need 2 outhalves for a 23.

Leinster have others though: Harry Byrne, Frawley, Prendergast and Tector.

Harry showed huge potential but injuries, defence and a tendency to try hero plays worked against him. But he's been stringing together minutes and results (& been refreshingly low risk). Form hasn't been the sort that forces him in, but I think he may well make the Ireland squad.

Frawley has huge potential at 10 (& elsewhere) but a few attempts to use him at 10 have ended up frustrated by injuries. Because Leinster are deep at 10, it's been easy to move him around. He might not have the control, we don't see him enough there to know for sure.

Prendergast: superstar teenager. Will need to be carefully managed. Has everything in his locker. Could end up playing in this 6N, but that would probably be Faz reaching.

Tector: last years superstar. Only 21, good and surprisingly mature. Easy to get forgotten about, especially because he's injured right now.

I could actually see Faz bringing 5 outhalves to camp (if he wants competition) and 2 or 3 if he wants confidence.

Investec Cup and interpros will show more.

[riocard911]

That's pretty much the state of affairs, alright!

[fourthirtythree]

I think it’s very unfair to say that Ireland will look elsewhere to Ross as he isn’t fashionable. Ross is still an all round better player than Crowley for most matches. Crowley has a higher ceiling but may not reach it, you know what you are going to get with Ross. Unfortunately Ross has been at the wrong end of small losses at the end of the match at of the season. Crowley came into the World Cup: he found a way to win in do or die situations. Everyone says Farrell is a vibes merchant and you want that vibe on your team.

Farrell may stick with him on the basis that he needs him to learn to start a game and potentially play 80. I was a bit disappointed in the WC for Crowley. I wanted him to end that debate by grabbing the spot and putting daylight between him and everyone else but he was pretty iffy unfortunately.

[Ruckedtobits]

Handré Pollard is the only international out-half currently playing who has two Rugby World Cup winners medals. Only one team, Ireland, beat South Africa during the recent Rugby World Cup. Pollard was not a member of the South African Squad beaten by Ireland. In fact, Pollard was not even a member of the South African RWC party, when his team were beaten by Ireland. Due to injury, he only joined the SA RWC party in the week after that game as an injury replacement.

Pollard is 29 years of age and was first capped by S Africa in 2014, 9 years ago. He was not selected for the 2015 RWC but played, mostly at out-half in the 2019 RWC, won by S Africa. He was first selected for the SA Under 20 team for the Junior World Cup in S Africa when he was 18 years of age, in 2014. His team beat NZ in the final & Pollard finished with 15 of their 22 points. Pollard has now played 69 times for SA.

Although 1.88m & 98kg (6'2" & 15 St 5lb), Pollard is not reknowned for his defensive play, despite playing occasionally at No 12 in both International & Club Rugby.

Looking at the Leinster out-half candidates in comparison to Pollard is a fascinating exercise. Three of the current contenders are taller than Pollard, but none are as heavy. Frawley has been listed previously in an IRFU squad as 98 kg. Both of the Brynes are generally listed as 92 kg. Prendergast is listed at 91 kg (and at 6'4"). In fact Frawley is the closest in physical attributes to Pollard, half-an-inch smaller & 1 kg lighter.

However, the comparisons end there. Pollard has been a serial winner at International, Underage and Club level.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handr%C3%A9_Pollard

Manne Libbock was the first choice SA out-half starting the RWC. However, he wasn't a member of the SA winning Squad of 23, although he was awarded a winners medal, like all Squad members. Jacques Nienabar made those selection decisions, possibly in consultation with his Director of Rugby.

Decisions of that nature are tough but are made based on evidence and the perceived needs of a team, at a particular time. They are based exclusively on the views of the Head Coach / DoR at that time.Other people's opinions don't matter a fig and sentiment plays no part in the decision making.

Those are the attributes that Nienabar brings to Leinster. They are how a determination will be made in Leinster (and probably Ireland) as to who becomes the successor to J10.

Unless the recently arrived avatar is unveiled as Jacques Nienabar, the opinions, expressed under that unusual handle, don't amount to a hill of beans. However, such damning opinions, about some of the aspirants, as have been offered, based on very little evidence, have a habit of returning to bite.

Although it's a very rare sentiment from this keyboard, should it occur in this instance, no tears will be shed.

[ronk]

I think it’s very unfair to say that Ireland will look elsewhere to Ross as he isn’t fashionable. Ross is still an all round better player than Crowley for most matches. Crowley has a higher ceiling but may not reach it, you know what you are going to get with Ross. Unfortunately Ross has been at the wrong end of small losses at the end of the match at of the season. Crowley came into the World Cup: he found a way to win in do or die situations. Everyone says Farrell is a vibes merchant and you want that vibe on your team.

Farrell may stick with him on the basis that he needs him to learn to start a game and potentially play 80. I was a bit disappointed in the WC for Crowley. I wanted him to end that debate by grabbing the spot and putting daylight between him and everyone else but he was pretty iffy unfortunately.

What lessons should Ross Byrne take about winning close matches from a team that were well beaten at the Last 16. Crowley didn't find a way to win, they were out of the tournament long before. Crowley beat Leinster in a game that Ross Byrne wasn't worth risking in. Ross Byrne played all the games of our Grand Slam this year. Crowley won a URC, Byrne has 4 of them. Ross lost a game last season, Crowley lost 8.

Ross Byrne wasn't in making Irish training squads for a while until he was needed late. He was Crowley's backup for the Australia game and if we remember that game we remember that he knows a thing or two about winning tight games late.

Faz generally doesn't bring in players with Byrne's profile. Ross Byrne isn't meant to be the best outhalf in Ireland, (He's too slow to be an international to some) but I think he is right now.

[Dexter]

I think it’s very unfair to say that Ireland will look elsewhere to Ross as he isn’t fashionable. Ross is still an all round better player than Crowley for most matches. Crowley has a higher ceiling but may not reach it, you know what you are going to get with Ross. Unfortunately Ross has been at the wrong end of small losses at the end of the match at of the season. Crowley came into the World Cup: he found a way to win in do or die situations. Everyone says Farrell is a vibes merchant and you want that vibe on your team.

Farrell may stick with him on the basis that he needs him to learn to start a game and potentially play 80. I was a bit disappointed in the WC for Crowley. I wanted him to end that debate by grabbing the spot and putting daylight between him and everyone else but he was pretty iffy unfortunately.

What lessons should Ross Byrne take about winning close matches from a team that were well beaten at the Last 16. Crowley didn't find a way to win, they were out of the tournament long before. Crowley beat Leinster in a game that Ross Byrne wasn't worth risking in. Ross Byrne played all the games of our Grand Slam this year. Crowley won a URC, Byrne has 4 of them. Ross lost a game last season, Crowley lost 8.

Ross Byrne wasn't in making Irish training squads for a while until he was needed late. He was Crowley's backup for the Australia game and if we remember that game we remember that he knows a thing or two about winning tight games late.

Faz generally doesn't bring in players with Byrne's profile. Ross Byrne isn't meant to be the best outhalf in Ireland, (He's too slow to be an international to some) but I think he is right now.

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[artaneboy]

I think it’s very unfair to say that Ireland will look elsewhere to Ross as he isn’t fashionable. Ross is still an all round better player than Crowley for most matches. Crowley has a higher ceiling but may not reach it, you know what you are going to get with Ross. Unfortunately Ross has been at the wrong end of small losses at the end of the match at of the season. Crowley came into the World Cup: he found a way to win in do or die situations. Everyone says Farrell is a vibes merchant and you want that vibe on your team.

Farrell may stick with him on the basis that he needs him to learn to start a game and potentially play 80. I was a bit disappointed in the WC for Crowley. I wanted him to end that debate by grabbing the spot and putting daylight between him and everyone else but he was pretty iffy unfortunately.

What lessons should Ross Byrne take about winning close matches from a team that were well beaten at the Last 16. Crowley didn't find a way to win, they were out of the tournament long before. Crowley beat Leinster in a game that Ross Byrne wasn't worth risking in. Ross Byrne played all the games of our Grand Slam this year. Crowley won a URC, Byrne has 4 of them. Ross lost a game last season, Crowley lost 8.

Ross Byrne wasn't in making Irish training squads for a while until he was needed late. He was Crowley's backup for the Australia game and if we remember that game we remember that he knows a thing or two about winning tight games late.

Faz generally doesn't bring in players with Byrne's profile. Ross Byrne isn't meant to be the best outhalf in Ireland, (He's too slow to be an international to some) but I think he is right now.

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Me too…


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[TMC]

Don’t think anyone clearly out in front tbh. Not convinced throwing Crowley in at the deep end is the right way to go, he is still very very raw, could be the making of him or it could backfire badly, latter more likely imo. Ross has never been flavour of the month with anyone bar Leinster and that’s fine. Looking at it objectively he has delivered way more, at a far higher level and more consistently over the course of his career than any other contender. The head to heads and the European games will define the pecking order. It’s all still to play for.

[offshorerules]

Given that Crowley was in effect the incumbent I think he probably edges it for now but if Prendergast fills out a little he got the highest ceiling in my opinion.

[Observingprop123]

Given that Crowley was in effect the incumbent I think he probably edges it for now but if Prendergast fills out a little he got the highest ceiling in my opinion.

That's my thoughts, but filling out could take a year or two, there's no rush for him at all though.

[offshorerules]

Given that Crowley was in effect the incumbent I think he probably edges it for now but if Prendergast fills out a little he got the highest ceiling in my opinion.

That's my thoughts, but filling out could take a year or two, there's no rush for him at all though.

Absolutely.

[Fireworks]

Given that Crowley was in effect the incumbent I think he probably edges it for now but if Prendergast fills out a little he got the highest ceiling in my opinion.

That's my thoughts, but filling out could take a year or two, there's no rush for him at all though.

Absolutely.

All going to plan for Prendergast I would see hime as first choice come the next world cup with the rest fighting for the other two seats. There is no rush but there are also not that many easier games to introduce him each year.

[Dexter]

Probably a controversial opinion but I thought Frawley was the better of the two 10s last night.

[ronk]

The best outhalf on the pitch yesterday was Sexton.

It’s a turn of events that Ross Byrne was the one who got injured. And it’s probably not short term.

I thought Frawley was easily better than Crowley.

[Observingprop123]

The best outhalf on the pitch yesterday was Sexton.

It’s a turn of events that Ross Byrne was the one who got injured. And it’s probably not short term.

I thought Frawley was easily better than Crowley.

A bit off topic but found it interesting that he was icing his injury yesterday. All the talk of experts and coaching staff and not a single one of them has read that icing is harmful for injury and slows down the healing process. The guy who made up the RICE method denounced it as ineffective. Adding heat to injury helps recovery, not ice!

[Oldschool]

The best outhalf on the pitch yesterday was Sexton.

It’s a turn of events that Ross Byrne was the one who got injured. And it’s probably not short term.

I thought Frawley was easily better than Crowley.

A bit off topic but found it interesting that he was icing his injury yesterday. All the talk of experts and coaching staff and not a single one of them has read that icing is harmful for injury and slows down the healing process. The guy who made up the RICE method denounced it as ineffective. Adding heat to injury helps recovery, not ice!

I think the ice is for a brief period only to reduce swelling and inflammation. Then apply heat.
But then that's old thinking so maybe the thinking has changed.

[naraic]

The best outhalf on the pitch yesterday was Sexton.

It’s a turn of events that Ross Byrne was the one who got injured. And it’s probably not short term.

I thought Frawley was easily better than Crowley.

A bit off topic but found it interesting that he was icing his injury yesterday. All the talk of experts and coaching staff and not a single one of them has read that icing is harmful for injury and slows down the healing process. The guy who made up the RICE method denounced it as ineffective. Adding heat to injury helps recovery, not ice!

Ice reduces swelling and deadens pain but slows blood flow.

Reducing swelling can help but slowing blood flow is harmful.

I've had ice then heat alternating recommended to me fairly recently by medical personnel after an injury.

[Observingprop123]

The latest research suggests Swelling is positive to recovery and reducing it causes longer recovery times. Reducing it would be harmful to recovery

[leinsterforever]

The latest research suggests Swelling is positive to recovery and reducing it causes longer recovery times. Reducing it would be harmful to recovery

Yeah, the body has probably evolved over millions of years to best heal if you just leave it alone and do nothing.

Looked like a biceps injury?

[Logorrhea]

Frawley is what 6 ft 4", he can run, pass, kick from hand and tee and most importantly he defends well. I get the value of prepping him to be #23, but with Ross injured (i'm assuming it'll be a few weeks out) we have to be looking to start Frawley no? Feels like a bit of a no-brainer for me.