Tour to NZ 2022

[suisse]

I'm sure it doesn't matter a jot but Ireland have played and won in Eden Park, during the RWC 2011 v Australia. Four of the match day squad that day will be involved this weekend. 11 years later, Sexton is our undisputed first choice 10 (at least back then we had an aging RoG to challenge him). Sexton is older now than RoG was in 2011 so where is the back up and future starting 10 coming from now?

Keith Earls started that game and, 11 years later, he's still in the team (albeit thru injuries). Cian Healy and Conor Murray the other 2.

One thing OTB kept mentioning last night in a podcast with Liam Toland was "fatigue." I'm sure a lot of these players are tired (especially the Lions tourists) but if we're tired, how will the likes of England cope this summer? Our players are well rested and looked after compared to many of our rivals'. We're often told our system is the envy of the world. But if we're gonna be fatigued for an end of season tour then we're in massive trouble. Unrelated to Wednesday's loss (it was a scratch line up) I think we're gonna be hammered. I don't think Leinster or Ireland's skills stand up to incredible aggression and power. NZ are gonna tear into Ireland so every decision will be rushed. Gonna see a sh!t load of ball dropped, passed forward, loosely thrown to no one. We don't have a bench to make any impact and, apparently, there's fatigue. NZ to hit 30+ once and 40+ twice in these games.

Gregor Paul already lashing on the compliments is an ominous sign. Some Irish former players or media like Donal Lenihan seem to get a semi at the very thought of NZ "respecting us" now. Genuinely have eff all interest what the man or woman on the street thinks about Ireland's rugby team. We shouldn't be worrying about respect.

[dropkick]

Getting off to a good start is vital. Not only for ireland but NZ players go into this with a lot of doubts plus they have a few inexperienced players etc. Plant the seed to doubt and their free flowing game could come to a grinding halt.


A bad start and we could be looking at a painful month for the team. Whats worrying is the lack of big personalities to pull things together when things are going bad. An AW Jones type. We have a few but not enough. Most players happy to stay in their shell and not step forward.

[Twist]

The bench really is so poor. There is no impact there at all bar Aki.

The score could really could get away from us in the last quarter.

The LAST quarter? I think you're being optimistic.

[paddyor]

Does anyone remember how bad the performances and the games in general used be, when Ireland A/wolfhounds used to play the Saxons before the 6 nations? I suppose a performance this poor shouldn't be THAT big of a surprise, although it still obviously shouldn't be accepted.

I think an under appreciated element might be we doing don’t really prep for this game given the main event on Saturday. Whereas for the Māori and it’s coaches this is the main event

[TMC]

I'm sure it doesn't matter a jot but Ireland have played and won in Eden Park, during the RWC 2011 v Australia. Four of the match day squad that day will be involved this weekend. 11 years later, Sexton is our undisputed first choice 10 (at least back then we had an aging RoG to challenge him). Sexton is older now than RoG was in 2011 so where is the back up and future starting 10 coming from now?

Keith Earls started that game and, 11 years later, he's still in the team (albeit thru injuries). Cian Healy and Conor Murray the other 2.

One thing OTB kept mentioning last night in a podcast with Liam Toland was "fatigue." I'm sure a lot of these players are tired (especially the Lions tourists) but if we're tired, how will the likes of England cope this summer? Our players are well rested and looked after compared to many of our rivals'. We're often told our system is the envy of the world. But if we're gonna be fatigued for an end of season tour then we're in massive trouble. Unrelated to Wednesday's loss (it was a scratch line up) I think we're gonna be hammered. I don't think Leinster or Ireland's skills stand up to incredible aggression and power. NZ are gonna tear into Ireland so every decision will be rushed. Gonna see a sh!t load of ball dropped, passed forward, loosely thrown to no one. We don't have a bench to make any impact and, apparently, there's fatigue. NZ to hit 30+ once and 40+ twice in these games.

Gregor Paul already lashing on the compliments is an ominous sign. Some Irish former players or media like Donal Lenihan seem to get a semi at the very thought of NZ "respecting us" now. Genuinely have eff all interest what the man or woman on the street thinks about Ireland's rugby team. We shouldn't be worrying about respect.

Listened to that and don't buy into the fatigue theory. We picked a side with 5 debutants a powder puff pack and no visible leadership up front. We got what we deserved. All the experience was in the back division, of those picked to start our highest capped forward (till Healy came on) had 6 caps? Crying out for someone like POM or Ruddock to gel them together. If you look at the numbers not a lot of that pack have really significant minutes under their belts this year, felt Toland was really grasping at straws blaming it on fatigue, as only Timoney, Prendergast and Heffernan have played over 1000 minutes for the season. The playing minutes for the team selected for the weekend are significantly higher.

Sexton/ Keenan wont kick as badly as JOB did yesterday, if they do and we haven’t learned that lesson we deserve to be stuffed. Ringer is a far better defender in the 13 channel than Hume so Earls wont be hung out to dry to the same extent. The bench is the concern, IMO Kelleher and Henderson would be starting so two of the starting pack would arguably be on the bench. Treadwell did not have a good game on Wednesday, gave away way too many penalties, personally a bit mystified he is being persisted with. Not sure about Conan as an impact player, think Coombes offers a different threat and the possibility to make the hard yards, I don’t think the game will open up to the extent there will be space for Conan to exploit so the harder running man would be the better option for me. Personally Conan either starts or he doesn’t make the 23, his recent form has not been to his usual standard, he may be carrying something. As for Bundee covering the back 5? Sweet Mother of Divine Intervention.

If we play as we can do we’ll give them a game, don't see us winning but equally don't see us shipping a hiding. They are going to come out hard and borderline dirty, they don't take being beaten well and will want to extract retribution, they
have been listening to pundits like Paul question them for 7 long months. First ten minutes will be brutal and Sir will have his hands full. We need to stand up for the first quarter and weather the initial storm, its coming as sure as night follows day. The lack of leadership wont be the issue it was yesterday at the weekend. The concern is tests two and three when with injuries we’re going further down the depth chart to players who on Wednesday at least showed very little evidence that they will be pushing for first team selection – with the exception of Coombes, Frawley, McCarthy and Scannell, who I thought had a great game given he was probably still running on Irish time, largely did the basis right in terms of the scrum and the throw in.

At least you can sit on the couch to watch the game this weekend, might well be hiding behind it come the 16th of July.

[Flash Gordon]

I'm sure it doesn't matter a jot but Ireland have played and won in Eden Park, during the RWC 2011 v Australia. Four of the match day squad that day will be involved this weekend. 11 years later, Sexton is our undisputed first choice 10 (at least back then we had an aging RoG to challenge him). Sexton is older now than RoG was in 2011 so where is the back up and future starting 10 coming from now?

Keith Earls started that game and, 11 years later, he's still in the team (albeit thru injuries). Cian Healy and Conor Murray the other 2.

One thing OTB kept mentioning last night in a podcast with Liam Toland was "fatigue." I'm sure a lot of these players are tired (especially the Lions tourists) but if we're tired, how will the likes of England cope this summer? Our players are well rested and looked after compared to many of our rivals'. We're often told our system is the envy of the world. But if we're gonna be fatigued for an end of season tour then we're in massive trouble. Unrelated to Wednesday's loss (it was a scratch line up) I think we're gonna be hammered. I don't think Leinster or Ireland's skills stand up to incredible aggression and power. NZ are gonna tear into Ireland so every decision will be rushed. Gonna see a sh!t load of ball dropped, passed forward, loosely thrown to no one. We don't have a bench to make any impact and, apparently, there's fatigue. NZ to hit 30+ once and 40+ twice in these games.

Gregor Paul already lashing on the compliments is an ominous sign. Some Irish former players or media like Donal Lenihan seem to get a semi at the very thought of NZ "respecting us" now. Genuinely have eff all interest what the man or woman on the street thinks about Ireland's rugby team. We shouldn't be worrying about respect.

Listened to that and don't buy into the fatigue theory. We picked a side with 5 debutants a powder puff pack and no visible leadership up front. We got what we deserved. All the experience was in the back division, of those picked to start our highest capped forward (till Healy came on) had 6 caps? Crying out for someone like POM or Ruddock to gel them together. If you look at the numbers not a lot of that pack have really significant minutes under their belts this year, felt Toland was really grasping at straws blaming it on fatigue, as only Timoney, Prendergast and Heffernan have played over 1000 minutes for the season. The playing minutes for the team selected for the weekend are significantly higher.

Sexton/ Keenan wont kick as badly as JOB did yesterday, if they do and we haven’t learned that lesson we deserve to be stuffed. Ringer is a far better defender in the 13 channel than Hume so Earls wont be hung out to dry to the same extent. The bench is the concern, IMO Kelleher and Henderson would be starting so two of the starting pack would arguably be on the bench. Treadwell did not have a good game on Wednesday, gave away way too many penalties, personally a bit mystified he is being persisted with. Not sure about Conan as an impact player, think Coombes offers a different threat and the possibility to make the hard yards, I don’t think the game will open up to the extent there will be space for Conan to exploit so the harder running man would be the better option for me. Personally Conan either starts or he doesn’t make the 23, his recent form has not been to his usual standard, he may be carrying something. As for Bundee covering the back 5? Sweet Mother of Divine Intervention.

If we play as we can do we’ll give them a game, don't see us winning but equally don't see us shipping a hiding. They are going to come out hard and borderline dirty, they don't take being beaten well and will want to extract retribution, they
have been listening to pundits like Paul question them for 7 long months. First ten minutes will be brutal and Sir will have his hands full. We need to stand up for the first quarter and weather the initial storm, its coming as sure as night follows day. The lack of leadership wont be the issue it was yesterday at the weekend. The concern is tests two and three when with injuries we’re going further down the depth chart to players who on Wednesday at least showed very little evidence that they will be pushing for first team selection – with the exception of Coombes, Frawley, McCarthy and Scannell, who I thought had a great game given he was probably still running on Irish time, largely did the basis right in terms of the scrum and the throw in.

At least you can sit on the couch to watch the game this weekend, might well be hiding behind it come the 16th of July.

Agree with a lot of that. Bundee isn't covering the back 5 really, Ringer can play centre or wing, Joey can play 10 or 15, Robbie can play centre or FB, J10 can play 10 or centre, we're covered.

Agree on Treadwell too, looks like a journeyman to be honest and didn't acquit himself particularly well against the Maori.

Think you raise a good point on Hume/Ringrose defensively. Aside from the poor kicking (they scored 3 tries from fairly poor kicks), Hume's linespeed defensively was knowhere near Bundee, Ringer or Henshaw which created space we couldn't afford to concede.

Personally I think we can win the game, though I don't mind if we lose, this is all about development and the way we play for me. The Maori game was a big step backwards up to the starting 23 to change momentum. Let's also not forget we beat this team last Autumn, our starting XV are a very good side.

[Dave Cahill]

Sexton/ Keenan wont kick as badly as JOB did yesterday,

I'm not sure I accept that JOB kicked poorly yesterday. The classic example was where his kick on 39 mins was run back by the Maori for a try so everyone says it was a poor kick. But, his kick hit grass, it kicked up and allowed him to get a tackle in on the receiver. By any measure it was a very good kick. However the receiver was able to pass out of the tackle and the guy who took the pass was able to run 10 metres before he reached the next Irish player and a line that had more dog legs than Shelbourne Park on race night. Thats not a bad kick, thats a dreadful chase.

[LeinsterLeader]

Sexton/ Keenan wont kick as badly as JOB did yesterday,

I'm not sure I accept that JOB kicked poorly yesterday. The classic example was where his kick on 39 mins was run back by the Maori for a try so everyone says it was a poor kick. But, his kick hit grass, it kicked up and allowed him to get a tackle in on the receiver. By any measure it was a very good kick. However the receiver was able to pass out of the tackle and the guy who took the pass was able to run 10 metres before he reached the next Irish player and a line that had more dog legs than Shelbourne Park on race night. Thats not a bad kick, thats a dreadful chase.

As someone who thinks a lot of what JOB has done thusfar in his young career has been overhyped, I endorse this sentiment. I'm not sure what else you'd want from a kick. If you look at where he kicked it from and where he made the tackle that was a huge potential ground gain. So if he made it that far up field in time to make the tackle there's no reason why others couldn't follow.

After Jimmy made that tackle he sort of had a look back at his non chasing teammates as if to say......"ah hello lads ..........are yis playin' or what?"

[OTT]

Just to be fair to the task that’s in front of us over the next couple of weeks, in our 24 Test Matches under Farrell (so not including the Māori game) we have only won 3 of our 8 away games.

One against Scotland by 3 points 27-24 in 2021 6 Nations
One against Italy 48-10 in 2021 6 Nations
And the other against England where we played practically the whole game with an extra man and only pulled away at the end 32-15.

What Farrell’s side tend to have is serious fight about them (a bit lacking yesterday in the first half but they didn’t concede after half time which is telling) and our biggest defeat under him has been by 12 points against England away 24-12 in the 2020 6 Nations. The game was a bit of a massacre but we somehow managed to keep the score down by not giving up.


We’ve won 15 of our 16 games under Farrell in Lansdowne only losing to France by 2 points 13-15 in the 2021 6 Nations, a fair few of them have been armchair rides

I think these tough games are exactly what we need, results probably won’t go our way but at least we can be real about where we stand after the series. You learn the most about people/groups in adversity (or so they say). Roll on Saturday.

[wixfjord]

Sexton/ Keenan wont kick as badly as JOB did yesterday,

I'm not sure I accept that JOB kicked poorly yesterday. The classic example was where his kick on 39 mins was run back by the Maori for a try so everyone says it was a poor kick. But, his kick hit grass, it kicked up and allowed him to get a tackle in on the receiver. By any measure it was a very good kick. However the receiver was able to pass out of the tackle and the guy who took the pass was able to run 10 metres before he reached the next Irish player and a line that had more dog legs than Shelbourne Park on race night. Thats not a bad kick, thats a dreadful chase.

Prendergast and particularly Coombes were awful in that passage.

JOB gets too far ahead of the line in chase, but he scrags his man and Stevenson is left facing down our two backrows, who both get stepped way too easily creating the hole.

[pangurban1]

Talked to a few Munster types and while they rate Wycherley they want him to keep to his preseason.

[ronk]

He played 19 games for Munster this season and lost 9 (I count Toulouse).

I wouldn't have had him on the tour at this stage of his career.

[wixfjord]

He played 19 games for Munster this season and lost 9 (I count Toulouse).

I wouldn't have had him on the tour at this stage of his career.

Why does the number of games a team has lost in a season have any relevance to whether he should be selected for Ireland?

Ed Byrne is very lucky to be there imo, probably down to his greater in camp experience. Wycherly certainly deserves a shot given our lack of quality at LH.

[munster#1]

Firstly, as a Irish fan of the Munster persuasion, it is great to see POM and Earls being selected to start.
I personally would have left both at home, along with a few others, but I am delighted for them all the same.

Now, looking at the Irish squad, I am also concerned that Earls played the full match on Wednesday and will now start another game so soon after it.
Whilst that may be common in other sports, in rugby, especially at Earl’s age, this is a big ask.

In addition, looking at the bench, it is clear that Ireland are lacking real depth.
The front row replacements are nowhere near this level imo.
Should one of the first choice players go down early, then we will struggle.
Likewise with Treadwell and Conan, are fairly contentious selections imo. While Conan was great last season, he has really failed to hit that level this season.

Ireland desperately need to develop depth in the forwards, but I worry that Farrell is not the man to do that.

[pangurban1]

Ed is 10 kg or so heavier I believe.

[ronk]

He played 19 games for Munster this season and lost 9 (I count Toulouse).

I wouldn't have had him on the tour at this stage of his career.

Why does the number of games a team has lost in a season have any relevance to whether he should be selected for Ireland?

Ed Byrne is very lucky to be there imo, probably down to his greater in camp experience. Wycherly certainly deserves a shot given our lack of quality at LH.

It's just something I noticed when I looked at his stats. He played a lot for Munster but they weren't very good either.

I don't think he's done anything special other than get picked a lot for his age. He seems to have a good engine and can play week in week out. Other than that what does he have going for him. He's a small loosehead, reasonably mobile and fairly busy, basically a prop version of his brother. Fineen has 87 Munster games which is astonishing for a 24 year old lock/blindside.

They both work hard and make a good effort but there's really little else to their game. No huge power, no size in the set piece, not technically special to compensate, middling hands, not fast, unremarkable ball carriers. They do okay but they get beat a fair bit too.

Loughman took a longer route but he's more powerful at scrum time and can execute pull back passes and other bits of skill. Bring him into the setup and see if he kicks on with a few work ons and working with better players. There's something that can be rounded out.

Josh might develop more and don't get me wrong he's a decent player, but what has he achieved or what about his game suggests he should be playing for Ireland right now.

[FLIP]

Healy was at the captain's run kitted out and running around enough to take on water if you believe the captain's run photos from the IRFU.

[Dave Cahill]

Stuart McCloskey winging his way to NZ due to an injury to Hume according to various twitterati

[sunshiner1]

by Dave Cahill


Stuart McCloskey winging his way to NZ due to an injury to Hume according to various twitterati

Happy for him. I was thinking Farrell from Munster could be heading out but McCloskey's form has been excellent the past season or two. I am sure he won't get a game until the Maori but having him in camp should be a help.

[the spoofer]

Stuart McCloskey winging his way to NZ due to an injury to Hume according to various twitterati

Happy with that. Well deserved.