Philip Browne set to retire at end of 2021

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FLIP
Rhys Ruddock
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Re: Philip Browne set to retire at end of 2021

Post by FLIP »

I'm talking double that as a floor. And that pay approach may have worked for getting Browne but won't work to attract his successor.
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wixfjord
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Re: Philip Browne set to retire at end of 2021

Post by wixfjord »

You reckon Browne's successor will be getting paid the same base as the highest paid Irish international?

Seriously?!
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Rhys Ruddock
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Re: Philip Browne set to retire at end of 2021

Post by FLIP »

wixfjord wrote: September 11th, 2021, 1:42 pm You reckon Browne's successor will be getting paid the same base as the highest paid Irish international?

Seriously?!
I'd be expecting them to get paid more, given the level of responsibility. Not only direct office employees, but responsibility for every player, coach, referee and volunteer at every level of the game on the island of Ireland, not only at the domestic, but European and international scale too. It's a huge amount of responsibility, far exceeding that of any one player. Add onto that legal responsibilities and yes, seriously. Or should I add some more exclaimation marks on for effect?
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Re: Philip Browne set to retire at end of 2021

Post by wixfjord »

FLIP wrote: September 11th, 2021, 1:48 pm
wixfjord wrote: September 11th, 2021, 1:42 pm You reckon Browne's successor will be getting paid the same base as the highest paid Irish international?

Seriously?!
I'd be expecting them to get paid more, given the level of responsibility. Not only direct office employees, but responsibility for every player, coach, referee and volunteer at every level of the game on the island of Ireland, not only at the domestic, but European and international scale too. It's a huge amount of responsibility, far exceeding that of any one player. Add onto that legal responsibilities and yes, seriously. Or should I add some more exclaimation marks on for effect?
John Delaney's base salary was 360k in his time at the top.

John Delaney.

Sport Ireland's John Treacy's salary is 160k.

The IRFU is currently in one of the biggest financial crises it has ever seen.

Browne and his successor's salary will be absolutely nowhere near 600k base, never mind that being the 'floor' as you say.

For a person who knows 'enough about renumeration practices' you're miles off here.
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Re: Philip Browne set to retire at end of 2021

Post by FLIP »

The wider market dictates otherwise. The FAI are not exactly a model of good governance. And Sport Ireland isn't really as high profile as the IRFU.
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Re: Philip Browne set to retire at end of 2021

Post by wixfjord »

FLIP wrote: September 11th, 2021, 2:22 pm The wider market dictates otherwise. The FAI are not exactly a model of good governance. And Sport Ireland isn't really as high profile as the IRFU.
What wider market? This isn't a large public company. The wider market is corresponding sporting bodies on the island, and I've quoted to you what counterparts are paid.

The FAI not being a model of good governance literally proves the point! Delaney basically set his own salary and was being paid just over half of what you think Browne's successor will be during a very tough financial time for the IRFU.

Browne's salary isn't public, but according to what I can find around the internet, it's been quoted as 125k-177k base.

You've made loads of claims about this without really backing anything up, so have you anything solid beyond your 'knowledge of remuneration'?
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Re: Philip Browne set to retire at end of 2021

Post by FLIP »

wixfjord wrote: September 11th, 2021, 2:33 pm
FLIP wrote: September 11th, 2021, 2:22 pm The wider market dictates otherwise. The FAI are not exactly a model of good governance. And Sport Ireland isn't really as high profile as the IRFU.
What wider market? This isn't a large public company. The wider market is corresponding sporting bodies on the island, and I've quoted to you what counterparts are paid.

The FAI not being a model of good governance literally proves the point! Delaney basically set his own salary and was being paid just over half of what you think Browne's successor will be during a very tough financial time for the IRFU.

Browne's salary isn't public, but according to what I can find around the internet, it's been quoted as 125k-177k base.

You've made loads of claims about this without really backing anything up, so have you anything solid beyond your 'knowledge of remuneration'?
You have no proof beyond what those in cash strapped orgs with lesser responsibilities are reported to have, and what rumours say the current holder earns.

The IRFU is not a publicly owned company but it has a larger set of responsibilities than a lot of those. It doesn't have to answer to shareholders, but instead has to answer to its members, players, officials and volunteers. Including on that the issues around player welfare and the (although slim) chances that the IRFU could even be held responsible for TBIs or even (although I seriously hope that any situation leading to it would never happen) corporate manslaughter, and the set of responsibilities are weighty. I would expect renumeration to match that, and even taking into account the non profit nature of the IRFU it would in my experience be higher than this.
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wixfjord
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Re: Philip Browne set to retire at end of 2021

Post by wixfjord »

Look, I'll make it simple for you Flip. Please answer this question directly.

Do you believe the CEO of the IRFU earns almost double the base salary of John Delaney at his peak, (taking into account the fact the IRFU have recently made 20 people redundant, cut player salaries by 10%, cut staff salaries by 20% and will make a projected €29m loss this year)?
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Re: Philip Browne set to retire at end of 2021

Post by FLIP »

wixfjord wrote: September 11th, 2021, 3:47 pm Look, I'll make it simple for you Flip. Please answer this question directly.

Do you believe the CEO of the IRFU earns almost double the base salary of John Delaney at his peak, (taking into account the fact the IRFU have recently made 20 people redundant, cut player salaries by 10%, cut staff salaries by 20% and will make a projected €29m loss this year)?
In the long term they should yes, otherwise you end up with the sort of leadership that ran the FAI into the ground.

Let me ask you this Wixford. Please answer these question directly. Do you think the IRFU should be hiring the highest quality CEO they can get? Why do you think they will be able to attract such talent far below the wider market value?
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Re: Philip Browne set to retire at end of 2021

Post by wixfjord »

Right fair enough. I think I'll leave it there so.
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Re: Philip Browne set to retire at end of 2021

Post by fourthirtythree »

Paying lots is how you get talent like John Delaney.
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Re: Philip Browne set to retire at end of 2021

Post by FLIP »

fourthirtythree wrote: September 11th, 2021, 5:07 pm Paying lots is how you get talent like John Delaney.
But he wasn't paid lots, according to the figures reported in this thread recently. So are you disputing their figures? Regardless, he was an internal hire who hasn't exactly shown his worth elsewhere, and history shows him as a poor hire.
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Re: Philip Browne set to retire at end of 2021

Post by The Doc »

FLIP wrote:The wider market dictates otherwise. The FAI are not exactly a model of good governance. And Sport Ireland isn't really as high profile as the IRFU.
I disagree... I run a business on multiples of the IRFU. I'm not paid the numbers you're talking and I wouldn't hire at those numbers... Even in the more expensive locations we operate in.

Your arguments remind me of some of the lines trotted out in Dublin in the mid 2000's. I think you're overestimating the market. The IRFU is not a complex multinational. It may have complexities but it's not complex

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sunshiner1
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Re: Philip Browne set to retire at end of 2021

Post by sunshiner1 »

Ok this thread degenerated fast into several arguments. Fair play to Philip Browne who did an excellent job. Good luck on your retirement. I hope you enjoy it.
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the spoofer
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Re: Philip Browne set to retire at end of 2021

Post by the spoofer »

backrower8 wrote: September 10th, 2021, 2:44 pm
the spoofer wrote: September 10th, 2021, 12:45 pm
backrower8 wrote: September 10th, 2021, 12:21 pm

In 23 years there are going to be some things that not everyone agrees with.

As for the offices on Lansdowne Road, unlike Delaney's FAI, decision making in the IRFU is not the decision of one person. That would have been a Management Committee decision.

Mick Dawson must be a similar age or slightly older than Browne. Would be an interim selection and would have to ovrcome the provincial sensitivities that you alluded to earlier.
The Committee probably made the decision but the proposal would have come from the CEO. Not just hindsight but the figures seem mental and unwarranted. There is no need for a sporting body to have trophy offices.
Not 'probably', they did and do make the decisions.

Not a reasonable assumption to say that the offices were the CEO's initiative. There are more than enough people in the Union capable of developing that agenda, in fact I would say it is far more probable that a few of the management committee sponsored that initiative and handed it to the executive to manage.

The offices are far from trophy standard. A 1980s build. Nothing fancy by the standards of the last 20 years, well off the pace in fact, and in a location where the Union has been based for decades. The proximity to the Stadium saves other costs and time as they regularly avail of the superior meeting facilities there and the offices provide a local logitical support base on international match days.
Well they came with a trophy purchase price. €23m appears to be the price. It will be interesting to see 2021 accounts to see how much the annual rent charge has decreased by.
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Re: Philip Browne set to retire at end of 2021

Post by the spoofer »

sunshiner1 wrote: September 12th, 2021, 4:11 am Ok this thread degenerated fast into several arguments. Fair play to Philip Browne who did an excellent job. Good luck on your retirement. I hope you enjoy it.
I fully agree. He did a fantastic job and deserves huge credit.
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Re: Philip Browne set to retire at end of 2021

Post by LeRouxIsPHat »

Met him once and he was a real gent. I think all decisions he made have to be viewed in the context of how relatively small the income levels are for the IRFU. It's not like a Premier League CEO that has an abundance of cash and take the club in all sorts of directions or make major decisions on a whim, most of his job was probably geared towards stability and in that context I think he's put us in a really strong place.

Not sure why some ex players are mentioned as potential Leinster CEOs. IIRC Leo actually did run a business and it didn't go very well, the others are far too inexperienced. As much as Dawson is a logical choice to step up in some ways, the reality is that the provinces (Leinster in particular) and the IRFU are always at odds with each other and I'd imagine Dawson's interview would mainly consist of him telling the IRFU that he'd tear down most of the structures they've put in place and give more freedom to the provinces.

I suspect that the current times mean that we'll try and go for someone who has been a commercial director or certainly has a history in revenue generation. It could easily be someone who has worked for Sky etc who was involved in big TV deals or growing a sport. I'd imagine that the vast majority of candidates won't be well known to the public. With all that said the first name that came to mind was Ciarán Medlar and I haven't been able to think of anyone else yet. Whether he gets it or not I'd be surprised if he wasn't in the mix.
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Re: Philip Browne set to retire at end of 2021

Post by backrower8 »

LeRouxIsPHat wrote: September 13th, 2021, 3:46 pm Met him once and he was a real gent. I think all decisions he made have to be viewed in the context of how relatively small the income levels are for the IRFU. It's not like a Premier League CEO that has an abundance of cash and take the club in all sorts of directions or make major decisions on a whim, most of his job was probably geared towards stability and in that context I think he's put us in a really strong place.

Not sure why some ex players are mentioned as potential Leinster CEOs. IIRC Leo actually did run a business and it didn't go very well, the others are far too inexperienced. As much as Dawson is a logical choice to step up in some ways, the reality is that the provinces (Leinster in particular) and the IRFU are always at odds with each other and I'd imagine Dawson's interview would mainly consist of him telling the IRFU that he'd tear down most of the structures they've put in place and give more freedom to the provinces.

I suspect that the current times mean that we'll try and go for someone who has been a commercial director or certainly has a history in revenue generation. It could easily be someone who has worked for Sky etc who was involved in big TV deals or growing a sport. I'd imagine that the vast majority of candidates won't be well known to the public. With all that said the first name that came to mind was Ciarán Medlar and I haven't been able to think of anyone else yet. Whether he gets it or not I'd be surprised if he wasn't in the mix.
I think Conor O'Shea has a lot of the skills needed, albeit I don't know if he has run a P&L before. That said, the CEO of the IRFU is the executive function of the Management Committee which directs the CEO much more proactively than most non-public company boards.

So it's still O'Shea for me with a package of €300k to €350k max, if it's someone new to the organiisation and c.€250k if it's a continuity appointment from within. That's where they and the job are at - it's not a job for a private sector hot shot.
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Re: Philip Browne set to retire at end of 2021

Post by dropkick »

the spoofer wrote: September 12th, 2021, 8:50 am
backrower8 wrote: September 10th, 2021, 2:44 pm
the spoofer wrote: September 10th, 2021, 12:45 pm

The Committee probably made the decision but the proposal would have come from the CEO. Not just hindsight but the figures seem mental and unwarranted. There is no need for a sporting body to have trophy offices.
Not 'probably', they did and do make the decisions.

Not a reasonable assumption to say that the offices were the CEO's initiative. There are more than enough people in the Union capable of developing that agenda, in fact I would say it is far more probable that a few of the management committee sponsored that initiative and handed it to the executive to manage.

The offices are far from trophy standard. A 1980s build. Nothing fancy by the standards of the last 20 years, well off the pace in fact, and in a location where the Union has been based for decades. The proximity to the Stadium saves other costs and time as they regularly avail of the superior meeting facilities there and the offices provide a local logitical support base on international match days.
Well they came with a trophy purchase price. €23m appears to be the price. It will be interesting to see 2021 accounts to see how much the annual rent charge has decreased by.

They paid €23m for offices?! Maybe there's a long term plan there. Buy now, save rent, sell at a higher price down the line. Better than having the money sitting in a bank.


Theres talk they're buying up houses around the small stand side too.
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Re: Philip Browne set to retire at end of 2021

Post by The Doc »

dropkick wrote:
the spoofer wrote: September 12th, 2021, 8:50 am
backrower8 wrote: September 10th, 2021, 2:44 pm Not 'probably', they did and do make the decisions.

Not a reasonable assumption to say that the offices were the CEO's initiative. There are more than enough people in the Union capable of developing that agenda, in fact I would say it is far more probable that a few of the management committee sponsored that initiative and handed it to the executive to manage.

The offices are far from trophy standard. A 1980s build. Nothing fancy by the standards of the last 20 years, well off the pace in fact, and in a location where the Union has been based for decades. The proximity to the Stadium saves other costs and time as they regularly avail of the superior meeting facilities there and the offices provide a local logitical support base on international match days.
Well they came with a trophy purchase price. €23m appears to be the price. It will be interesting to see 2021 accounts to see how much the annual rent charge has decreased by.

They paid €23m for offices?! Maybe there's a long term plan there. Buy now, save rent, sell at a higher price down the line. Better than having the money sitting in a bank.


Theres talk they're buying up houses around the small stand side too.
They've been doing that for a long time I understood

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