lions team for second test? - Speculation

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suisse
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Re: lions team for second test?

Post by suisse »

Oldschool wrote: It's funny and I hate bringing the L v M thing into it, but when Foley was "quiet", it was because he was doing the unseen work or pacing himself - give us a break and analyse what happened and leave your parochialism where it belongs.
What are you talking about? Seriously. What has Anthony Foley or ROG got to do with this? And I support the same team as you, so how am I being parochial? But that's the point, isn't it? This isn't about Leinster, or Munster, or Wasps, the Opsreys or Edinburgh. It's not about Ireland, England, Scotland or Wales too. It's about the Lions. Leave your blue tinted glasses at home. The point, as downsouthdukin was rightly trying to point out is, why are we having these raging debates about who should be dropped, but when the suggestion comes about a Leinster player, it's 'laughable'. I didn't say Heaslip should be dropped, but if some people here are willing to throw other names about, then at least be objective for feck sake, and include everyone who played well below themselves, and that includes Heaslip...

With regards to some of the teams being picked here, I can where you are all coming from, but we can't keep chopping and changing the team. If we do, we're working of a virtually new back three, new half backs, new second row, new front row. How can we let combinations develop if players are being booted out? There are times when certain performances are worthy of a dropping, and two in the front row is a must. But, after that, we can't keep altering. It means there is a brand new Lions team selected each time. With the exception of inside centre, how many other changes did Ireland make throughout the 6 Nations? Stringer and Leamy both started a game, plus D'arcy/Wallace. Fewer changes in 5 matches than some people here want after one game.
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Re: lions team for second test?

Post by CiaranIrl »

suisse wrote:
Oldschool wrote: It's funny and I hate bringing the L v M thing into it, but when Foley was "quiet", it was because he was doing the unseen work or pacing himself - give us a break and analyse what happened and leave your parochialism where it belongs.
What are you talking about? Seriously. What has Anthony Foley or ROG got to do with this? And I support the same team as you, so how am I being parochial? But that's the point, isn't it? This isn't about Leinster, or Munster, or Wasps, the Opsreys or Edinburgh. It's not about Ireland, England, Scotland or Wales too. It's about the Lions. Leave your blue tinted glasses at home. The point, as downsouthdukin was rightly trying to point out is, why are we having these raging debates about who should be dropped, but when the suggestion comes about a Leinster player, it's 'laughable'. I didn't say Heaslip should be dropped, but if some people here are willing to throw other names about, then at least be objective for feck sake, and include everyone who played well below themselves, and that includes Heaslip...

With regards to some of the teams being picked here, I can where you are all coming from, but we can't keep chopping and changing the team. If we do, we're working of a virtually new back three, new half backs, new second row, new front row. How can we let combinations develop if players are being booted out? There are times when certain performances are worthy of a dropping, and two in the front row is a must. But, after that, we can't keep altering. It means there is a brand new Lions team selected each time. With the exception of inside centre, how many other changes did Ireland make throughout the 6 Nations? Stringer and Leamy both started a game, plus D'arcy/Wallace. Fewer changes in 5 matches than some people here want after one game.
Yep, agreed. Wholesale changes are not going to help. I'd only make two I reckon. The obvious Tighthead change, and Kearney on for Monye.
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Re: lions team for second test?

Post by dipper »

dipper wrote:1. Jenkins
2. Rees
3. A Jones
4. DOC
5. POC (Captain)
6. Croft
7. Wallace
8. Heaslip
9. Phillips
10. ROG
11. Fitzgerald
12. Roberts
13. BOD
14. Bowe
15. Kearney

16. Ford
17. Sheridan
18. Hines
19. M Williams
20. Ellis
21. Hook
22. Byrne
Having watched last night's game I stand by the starting 15 I went for the other day. I'd prefer Shaw on the bench to Hines though and maybe The Bull ahead of Sheridan. Jones will definitely be involved so Hook is the odd man out at out half.

I think Luke has played himself into the team on the back of last night. It wasn't a night for wingers but he made one great line break and an important tackle on one of their wingers. He did have 1 noticeable missed tackle but overall I think it was a good sign that Geech pulled him off with 15 mins left.

As for ROG I thought he made the most of some terribly slow ball from Ellis. 1 bad penalty miss aside he was pretty effective compared to Hook when he came on. I'd say it will be Jones starting again though with ROG on the bench. I think ROG offers more though. Unfortunately Ellis will have to be on the bench because Blair is in awful form.

DOC has to start at 4. He had a good game last night and has been the most effective 2nd row on the tour so far.
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Re: lions team for second test?

Post by Leezer »

DOC to start alright.
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Re: lions team for second test?

Post by Turnip Boy »

I thought Hayes was excellent last night. Both himself and DOC put in huge work at the breakdown in terms of clearing out and stopping the close in driving. Calling ROG ashore that early in the second half cost them the game as Hook is not a man to control a game (as we've seen before at HC level). I think for Sat that it will be an all welsh front row, its a 50/50 call between DOC and Shaw to partner POC and I think the welsh half backs will start again. The centres will remain the same and I think that if Lee Byrne doesn't make it an all irish back three is most likely.

The backrow is a strange one - I think they need Wallace's physicallity but also they Martyn Williams to be able to play the expansive game. I hope I'm wrong but I think they'll keep Croft at 6 and then I wonder if (based on Wallace coming on at 8 ) would Heaslip be dropped from the starting XV and Wallace played at 8 with Williams at 7 and Croft at 6. Personally I think a backrow of 6. Wallace 7. Williams and 8 Heaslip is the way to go.

The bench should be Hayes to cover Adam Jones, Mears to cover Rees, DOC or Shaw (whoever doesn't start), whichever of the four backrows doesn't start (Heaslip, Croft, Williams and Wallace), Ellis , ROG and Earls.

If Byrne is fit Kearney to the wing and Fitz to the bench.
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Re: lions team for second test?

Post by CiaranIrl »

I really doubt they will make 6 changes to the team, as everyone seems to be saying. I think that would be a mistake anyway.
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Re: lions team for second test?

Post by gfo »

1. Jenkins
2. Rees (over Mears for an all-Welsh front row, good familiarity. neither hooker is great really)
3. Jones
4. O' Callaghan (we really need the cohesion between DOC and POC in the 2nd row)
5. Paulie captaining, as he should
6. Williams (experience beats Croft here)
7. Wally
8. Heaslip (Don't want Wallace played out of position in a test)
9. Phillips
10. ROG (personally, no question here)
11. LUKE! (almost certainly wont be picked, despite outplaying Shane and Ugo)
12. Roberts
13. BOD
14. Bowe
15. Byrne if he's good to go

16. Mears
17. The Bull
18. AW Jones
19. Croft
20. Ellis (played well against ESA)
21. Jones
22. Kearney (can fill in for the utility back role like Hook, Jones can be 2nd OH)

I reckon its the best you can get going by current form and ignoring reputation. Front 5 should be able to work well together. Croft is too young to start considering the physical pounding he's going to get from the 'boks, Williams has taken enough punches to withstand the pressure. Croft is fast though and would be a great impact player when the saffers get tired. I wouldn't let Hook near the team, I thought he played like muck against ESA.
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Re: lions team for second test?

Post by gfo »

http://www.skysports.com/lions-09/story ... 58,00.html

Shane and Luke battling it out for a place on the wing, according to Shaun Edwards. Kearney will be on if Byrne isn't fit. Most changes coming in the pack.
I think that means they're going with Jones at 10 again. Im sick of Shane Williams being in contention, how badly does he have to play to get dropped?
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Re: lions team for second test?

Post by fourthirtythree »

"On this tour, he has not been spectacular but rock solid. There's always a time when Shane's going to make a break and score a try but what's been impressive is that his error rate has been very, very low."

Shaun Edwards on Shane Williams.

No Shaun. Not at all. On either count.

Oh hang on you got one thing right. He wasn't spectacular. Well you could argue he was spectacularly bad. But that was only intermittently. Which brings us back to his error rate. Oh, and the serious nature of those errors.
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Re: lions team for second test?

Post by Turnip Boy »

fourthirtythree wrote:"On this tour, he has not been spectacular but rock solid. There's always a time when Shane's going to make a break and score a try but what's been impressive is that his error rate has been very, very low."

Shaun Edwards on Shane Williams.

No Shaun. Not at all. On either count.

Oh hang on you got one thing right. He wasn't spectacular. Well you could argue he was spectacularly bad. But that was only intermittently. Which brings us back to his error rate. Oh, and the serious nature of those errors.
what do you expect him to say about the player? he a heap of sh!te and I'm sorry he was every included in the touring squad? He should be sent home he's that bad?

its the media game - if it was a reporter asking about an Irish player going through a tough time it would be a similar response.
“It was a very simple gameplan, not the type of gameplan that would work for the Wallabies. I think it’d be too restrictive on the talent we have.” - Rocky on Leinster's style of rugby.
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Re: lions team for second test?

Post by gfo »

There's a lot of players they could've praised, but the fact remains that the Lions management have singled out Shane again for special mention and basically said he's 50/50 for a test spot.
What mention does Luke get?
"I'm sure Luke's name will be discussed at the selection meeting. He had a positive impact on the game."

Shane?
"I've been very impressed with [him]"
"He's been taking a little bit of criticism over his form in the last season, basically because his form the year before was not just good but unbelievable and to expect any player to keep that form up is probably unrealistic."
"There's always a time when Shane's going to make a break and score a try but what's been impressive is that his error rate has been very, very low."
"He's in contention."

They didn't have to say he's shite, but at the same time they didn't have to go out of their way to pile more praise on him when he's playing like dogshit. Why is he so deserving of special attention? There's a lot of game-breakers in the squad, and many of them are on top form
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Re: lions team for second test?

Post by Turnip Boy »

gfo wrote:There's a lot of players they could've praised, but the fact remains that the Lions management have singled out Shane again for special mention and basically said he's 50/50 for a test spot.
What mention does Luke get?
"I'm sure Luke's name will be discussed at the selection meeting. He had a positive impact on the game."

Shane?
"I've been very impressed with [him]"
"He's been taking a little bit of criticism over his form in the last season, basically because his form the year before was not just good but unbelievable and to expect any player to keep that form up is probably unrealistic."
"There's always a time when Shane's going to make a break and score a try but what's been impressive is that his error rate has been very, very low."
"He's in contention."

They didn't have to say he's shite, but at the same time they didn't have to go out of their way to pile more praise on him when he's playing like dogshit. Why is he so deserving of special attention? There's a lot of game-breakers in the squad, and many of them are on top form
A player who isn't on top form gets a bit of an ego boost in the press/media from a coach - big deal. Its a minor thing and mainly only an issue for those with blue tinted galsses
“It was a very simple gameplan, not the type of gameplan that would work for the Wallabies. I think it’d be too restrictive on the talent we have.” - Rocky on Leinster's style of rugby.
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Re: lions team for second test?

Post by gfo »

Turnip Boy wrote:A player who isn't on top form gets a bit of an ego boost in the press/media from a coach - big deal. Its a minor thing and mainly only an issue for those with blue tinted galsses
blue tinted glasses? so every single player on the tour besides Shane is a Leinster player? Come off it. He's the only one getting special treatment
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Re: lions team for second test?

Post by Turnip Boy »

gfo wrote:
Turnip Boy wrote:A player who isn't on top form gets a bit of an ego boost in the press/media from a coach - big deal. Its a minor thing and mainly only an issue for those with blue tinted galsses
blue tinted glasses? so every single player on the tour besides Shane is a Leinster player? Come off it. He's the only one getting special treatment
boo hoo the lions aren't talking enough about Luke. Waaaaaaaaaa. Lets turn on them like any journalist who even dares to mention anything non positive about Leinster.
“It was a very simple gameplan, not the type of gameplan that would work for the Wallabies. I think it’d be too restrictive on the talent we have.” - Rocky on Leinster's style of rugby.
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Re: lions team for second test?

Post by fourthirtythree »

TB: Williams is a disaster. His constant promotion has been to the detriment of the team. Other options have not been properly exploited. The managements attempts to play him into a form he hasn't had in a year, and which may have permanently deserted him, appear to have been a mistake that they can't seem to back themselves away from. Without his game breaking form we are left with the dodgy rugby player who gifts turnovers, intercept passes, and tries to the opposition. He is, when not blistering, a complete liability.

That's just the way it is. You don't have to like it but your petulant outbursts on the subject are beginning to sound a bit silly.
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Re: lions team for second test?

Post by Scott »

fourthirtythree wrote:TB: Williams is a disaster. His constant promotion has been to the detriment of the team. Other options have not been properly exploited. The managements attempts to play him into a form he hasn't had in a year, and which may have permanently deserted him, appear to have been a mistake that they can't seem to back themselves away from. Without his game breaking form we are left with the dodgy rugby player who gifts turnovers, intercept passes, and tries to the opposition. He is, when not blistering, a complete liability.

That's just the way it is. You don't have to like it but your petulant outbursts on the subject are beginning to sound a bit silly.

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Re: lions team for second test?

Post by Turnip Boy »

I have never once defended Williams form or playing ability. What I find unbelievable is that posters think that comments from the management where they don't slate him are wrong. Would you like Cheika to have come out earlier on this season and said well really Johnny Sexton is pure sh!te - he can't kick, and he's in terrible form and thats why I've left him out of the match day 22. No you'd expect him to at least to say something positive about the player and not knock his confidence altogether.
“It was a very simple gameplan, not the type of gameplan that would work for the Wallabies. I think it’d be too restrictive on the talent we have.” - Rocky on Leinster's style of rugby.
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Re: lions team for second test?

Post by gfo »

you just keep missing the point. No one is saying he should be slated by the management, he just shouldn't be singled out ahead of every other player and praised, and he shouldn't be given infinite chances to start when he squanders his opportunities.

Its not a pro-Leinster thing at all, its that fact Leinster, Munster, English and Welsh players aren't being given chances that they deserve more than Williams, and many of them could get on the plane home now because they won't be played
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Re: lions team for second test? - Speculation

Post by CiaranIrl »

Anyway, Earls should be on the bench ahead of Shane Williams. Offers more versatility, and is scoring tries, unlike the Welshman. I'd say you would agree with that at least Turnip Boy?
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