Hayes called up to Lions

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shezba
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Re: Hayes called up to Lions

Post by shezba »

TrapperChamonix wrote:In a tour like this, it was a realistic expectation that at least 1 prop would get injured. Here we have the ludicrous situation of having to pull John Hayes off the farm stick him on a plane in order to play one midweek game against the Emerging Springboks. Unless there are more injuries, its hard to see him having any chance of making the 2nd and 3rd tests. So one game and thank you very much Mr Hayes.
I doubt he's complaining too much about the burden. Also, the team selection with Mears, Jones, POC and Croft is clearly prioritising lineouts. If there is any malfunction in the first test then why wouldn't they opt for (to quote GT today) POC's personal JCB? I reckon he was left out initially because they were much more focussed on scrums than lineout.

As to your other point about needing a 45 man squad, the only real disaster has been at 6 where there is nobody left to challenge Croft and over the course of less than 48 hours they went from needing a replacement to sending Jones home again and not needing one. Is Leamy injured? If not then it's unbelievable that he's not in the squad by now.
Who the fock was that??? Is that the focking guy who is in charge of the money???
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downsouthdukin
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Re: Hayes called up to Lions

Post by downsouthdukin »

Danthefan wrote:He shouldn't have been there from the start at all but he's the next in line and I hope he gets gametime.

Ominously, Horan is now the only 1st choice Irish player not to be called up to the Lions.
paddy wallace?
Big match from Munster.Don't really understand the criticism of their so called ugly rugby.I love open running rugby but I also admire the collective mastery of this Munster team.What a beautiful machine with that ruthless side to them.
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ronk
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Re: Hayes called up to Lions

Post by ronk »

shezba wrote:
TrapperChamonix wrote:In a tour like this, it was a realistic expectation that at least 1 prop would get injured. Here we have the ludicrous situation of having to pull John Hayes off the farm stick him on a plane in order to play one midweek game against the Emerging Springboks. Unless there are more injuries, its hard to see him having any chance of making the 2nd and 3rd tests. So one game and thank you very much Mr Hayes.
I doubt he's complaining too much about the burden. Also, the team selection with Mears, Jones, POC and Croft is clearly prioritising lineouts. If there is any malfunction in the first test then why wouldn't they opt for (to quote GT today) POC's personal JCB? I reckon he was left out initially because they were much more focussed on scrums than lineout.

As to your other point about needing a 45 man squad, the only real disaster has been at 6 where there is nobody left to challenge Croft and over the course of less than 48 hours they went from needing a replacement to sending Jones home again and not needing one. Is Leamy injured? If not then it's unbelievable that he's not in the squad by now.
Selection is about form. Croft was picked because he's been playing better than Worsley. An extra option at the lineout was a factor, not the reason for selection. Hayes was left out initially because Adam Jones and Murray were more highly regarded than him and Vickery can play 2 sides of the scrum.
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TrapperChamonix
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Re: Hayes called up to Lions

Post by TrapperChamonix »

ronk wrote:
TrapperChamonix wrote:In a tour like this, it was a realistic expectation that at least 1 prop would get injured. Here we have the ludicrous situation of having to pull John Hayes off the farm stick him on a plane in order to play one midweek game against the Emerging Springboks. Unless there are more injuries, its hard to see him having any chance of making the 2nd and 3rd tests. So one game and thank you very much Mr Hayes.

This really shows the failing in McGeechans theory about reduced squad numbers. Woodward was right about bringing 45 players 4 years ago. The reason the morale fell apart wasn't anything to do with the number of players, it was to do with Woodward


I really hope he's getting a full share of the fee.
Woodward brought 45 players and replacements when anyone got injured. 45 was too many to manage to get a squad to gel in a short time. It's easier to bring someone in that have them kicking their heels in training.

One of the problems with Woodward is that despite there being 3 players in pretty much every position, in some cases late injury call ups still ended up starting the tests ahead of original selections.

He's already brough out hayes, Ross, croft, hook, blair (have I forgotten anyone?) so the number getting close to the 45. If Earls and Flutey had'nt made miraculous recoveries it might have been more. Oh Yea I forgot about Jones.

At this stage the starting 15 has picked itself with no one on the bench (or not picked) really putting pressure onthe team. You can argue a case for Luke, but its not compelling. An expanded squad would have given us better options than we have today e.g.strokosh, armitage and be putting genuine pressure on the team.
Just think of it this way, if POC gets injured in the 1st minute, we'll have DOC playing his 3rd full game in 8 days, hardly the best preparation for taking on Bakkes.

I take the point about people kicking their heals, buy the alternative point is that you need to bring someone in last minute to learn moves, lineout drill etc a few days before playing the Boks. I'd repeat my assertion that the bigger problem of the Lions in NZ was not the 45 players they brought, but the Woodward effect including travelling with Barrister and Alister Campbell. BTW I also seem to remember they were far from a happy bunch in 01. Remember all the tour diaries, Austin Healy etc.

How many are taken to a World Cup?
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id@53
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Re: Hayes called up to Lions

Post by id@53 »

TrapperChamonix wrote:How many are taken to a World Cup?
Ireland brought 30 to France in 2007
IRELAND 2007 RUGBY WORLD CUP SQUAD:

FORWARDS (16) -

Neil Best (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster)
Rory Best (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster)
Simon Best (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster)
Simon Easterby (Llanelli)
Stephen Ferris (Dungannon/Ulster)
Jerry Flannery (Shannon/Munster)
John Hayes (Bruff/Munster)
Marcus Horan (Shannon/Munster)
Denis Leamy (Cork Constitution/Munster)
Donncha O'Callaghan (Cork Constitution/Munster)
Paul O'Connell (Young Munster/Munster)
Malcolm O'Kelly (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
Alan Quinlan (Shannon/Munster)
Frankie Sheahan (Cork Constitution/Munster)
David Wallace (Garryowen/Munster)
Bryan Young (Ballymena/Ulster)

BACKS (14) -

Isaac Boss (Ballymena/Ulster)
Brian Carney (Clonakilty/Munster)
Gordon D'Arcy (Lansdowne/Leinster)
Girvan Dempsey (Terenure College/Leinster)
Gavin Duffy (Galwegians/Connacht)
Denis Hickie (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
Shane Horgan (Lansdowne/Leinster)
Geordan Murphy (Leicester)
Brian O'Driscoll (UCD/Leinster) (CAPTAIN)
Ronan O'Gara (Cork Constitution/Munster)
Eoin Reddan (Wasps)
Peter Stringer (Shannon/Munster)
Andrew Trimble (Ballymena/Ulster)
Paddy Wallace (Ballymena/Ulster)
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downsouthdukin
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Re: Hayes called up to Lions

Post by downsouthdukin »

downsouthdukin wrote:
Danthefan wrote:He shouldn't have been there from the start at all but he's the next in line and I hope he gets gametime.

Ominously, Horan is now the only 1st choice Irish player not to be called up to the Lions.
paddy wallace?
and infairness only 1 specialist loose head was takin. sheridan. jenkins, vickery and jones can all play there. hardly ominous
Big match from Munster.Don't really understand the criticism of their so called ugly rugby.I love open running rugby but I also admire the collective mastery of this Munster team.What a beautiful machine with that ruthless side to them.
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TrapperChamonix
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Re: Hayes called up to Lions

Post by TrapperChamonix »

id@53 wrote:
TrapperChamonix wrote:How many are taken to a World Cup?
Ireland brought 30 to France in 2007
Not sure that helps my case :cry:
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shezba
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Re: Hayes called up to Lions

Post by shezba »

TrapperChamonix wrote:
id@53 wrote:
TrapperChamonix wrote:How many are taken to a World Cup?
Ireland brought 30 to France in 2007
Not sure that helps my case :cry:
Well look what happened...
Who the fock was that??? Is that the focking guy who is in charge of the money???
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id@53
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Re: Hayes called up to Lions

Post by id@53 »

TrapperChamonix wrote:
id@53 wrote:
TrapperChamonix wrote:How many are taken to a World Cup?
Ireland brought 30 to France in 2007
Not sure that helps my case :cry:
Each country was allowed a squad of 30 players for the tournament. These squads were to be submitted to the International Rugby Board by a deadline of 14 August 2007. Once the squad was submitted a player could be replaced if injured, but would not be allowed to return to the squad.


Or so says Wikipedia - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Rugby ... Cup#Squads
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Re: Hayes called up to Lions

Post by ronk »

TrapperChamonix wrote:

He's already brough out hayes, Ross, croft, hook, blair (have I forgotten anyone?) so the number getting close to the 45. If Earls and Flutey had'nt made miraculous recoveries it might have been more. Oh Yea I forgot about Jones.

At this stage the starting 15 has picked itself with no one on the bench (or not picked) really putting pressure onthe team. You can argue a case for Luke, but its not compelling. An expanded squad would have given us better options than we have today e.g.strokosh, armitage and be putting genuine pressure on the team.
Just think of it this way, if POC gets injured in the 1st minute, we'll have DOC playing his 3rd full game in 8 days, hardly the best preparation for taking on Bakkes.

I take the point about people kicking their heals, buy the alternative point is that you need to bring someone in last minute to learn moves, lineout drill etc a few days before playing the Boks. I'd repeat my assertion that the bigger problem of the Lions in NZ was not the 45 players they brought, but the Woodward effect including travelling with Barrister and Alister Campbell. BTW I also seem to remember they were far from a happy bunch in 01. Remember all the tour diaries, Austin Healy etc.

How many are taken to a World Cup?
Well of course 2005 was about a lot more than just the squad size. I was making the point that despite having 45 players the Lions ended up playing replacements ahead of original selections because the touring party was so totally flawed.

The squad had to be 3-4 players larger than originally planned to take account of the prospect of a Cardiff-Munster HC final. 2005 was 45 at any one time with more used as injury replacements. Ross, Croft and Blair all joined before people went to South Africa. Replacements have only been called as necessary and in some cases players haven't been replaced. A week later and Hayes wouldn't have joined the tour. D'Arcy was only called up because of fitness concerns for several players at once.

The World Cup is a totally different kettle of fish from a Lions Tour. Firstly, the test team is mostly decided in advance so the concept of everyone being able to fight for a place would be totally alien. 2ndly the schedule permits minimal rotation. 4 group games, 2 of which should be easy enough to rest key stars with a possible 3 more games (one a week) over the same time-frame as this (short) Lions tour has had to play 10 games and deal with late arrivals due to the fact that the season isn't finished before the tour starts let alone before the squad is named.

McGeechan has had to make compromises and difficult choices. Some have worked out, some haven't. Certainly the decision to take 2 outhalves looks silly right now. Flutey outhalf with 1/2p goalkicking was obviously disrupted by injuries to both of them but Hook has played 5 times in 6 games while neither O'Gara nor Jones have even had a knock and O'Gara (and Halpenny) wasn't absent at the start of the tour.
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Re: Hayes called up to Lions

Post by TrapperChamonix »

Well either way good luck to them all. Still 24 hours of blind faith before reality sets in. Success or failure on the field will ultimately be the judge. Given the way the medja work a win means every decision made was inspired and a loss means every decision was a disaster.

Ronk, I'm sure McGeechin is a man comfortable with the compromises hes made and probably sleeps easy with the decisions he makes (right or wrong)
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Re: Hayes called up to Lions

Post by Hickiefan »

Indeed. Let's hope they can pull it off.

I'll miss the game tomorrow sadly but only cos I'll be on a plane over to SA for all the remaining games. Emerging Boks up first. :D
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Re: Hayes called up to Lions

Post by TrapperChamonix »

Hickiefan wrote:Indeed. Let's hope they can pull it off.

I'll miss the game tomorrow sadly but only cos I'll be on a plane over to SA for all the remaining games. Emerging Boks up first. :D
Are you sitting beside the Bull?


btw, given that Vickery is also call The Bull, this could cause some confusion if they get picked on the same team
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Re: Hayes called up to Lions

Post by fourthirtythree »

TrapperChamonix wrote:
Hickiefan wrote:Indeed. Let's hope they can pull it off.

I'll miss the game tomorrow sadly but only cos I'll be on a plane over to SA for all the remaining games. Emerging Boks up first. :D
Are you sitting beside the Bull?


btw, given that Vickery is also call The Bull, this could cause some confusion if they get picked on the same team
Jayzuz! Hasn't anybody told them you don't put two bulls in the same field together?

If someone gets mauled to death I'm not taking the blame.
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Re: Hayes called up to Lions

Post by dipper »

fourthirtythree wrote:
TrapperChamonix wrote:
Are you sitting beside the Bull?


btw, given that Vickery is also call The Bull, this could cause some confusion if they get picked on the same team
Jayzuz! Hasn't anybody told them you don't put two bulls in the same field together?

If someone gets mauled to death I'm not taking the blame.
Vickery is the Raging Bull. Presumably the "Raging" bit refers to all the time he spends in the sin bin...
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Re: Hayes called up to Lions

Post by shezba »

TrapperChamonix wrote:
btw, given that Vickery is also call The Bull, this could cause some confusion if they get picked on the same team
It's not the most original name in the world for a prop is it? Maybe it should be reserved for props with an impressive tackle.
Who the fock was that??? Is that the focking guy who is in charge of the money???
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Re: Hayes called up to Lions

Post by rooster »

downsouthdukin wrote:
Danthefan wrote:He shouldn't have been there from the start at all but he's the next in line and I hope he gets gametime.

Ominously, Horan is now the only 1st choice Irish player not to be called up to the Lions.
paddy wallace?
Paddy is out of all rugby for the summer due to head injuries last season, hence he was not on any of the Ireland tours either, hope he gets the all clear to play next season.
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Re: Hayes called up to Lions

Post by Oldschool »

ronk wrote:
shezba wrote:
TrapperChamonix wrote:In a tour like this, it was a realistic expectation that at least 1 prop would get injured. Here we have the ludicrous situation of having to pull John Hayes off the farm stick him on a plane in order to play one midweek game against the Emerging Springboks. Unless there are more injuries, its hard to see him having any chance of making the 2nd and 3rd tests. So one game and thank you very much Mr Hayes.
I doubt he's complaining too much about the burden. Also, the team selection with Mears, Jones, POC and Croft is clearly prioritising lineouts. If there is any malfunction in the first test then why wouldn't they opt for (to quote GT today) POC's personal JCB? I reckon he was left out initially because they were much more focussed on scrums than lineout.

As to your other point about needing a 45 man squad, the only real disaster has been at 6 where there is nobody left to challenge Croft and over the course of less than 48 hours they went from needing a replacement to sending Jones home again and not needing one. Is Leamy injured? If not then it's unbelievable that he's not in the squad by now.
Selection is about form. Croft was picked because he's been playing better than Worsley. An extra option at the lineout was a factor, not the reason for selection. Hayes was left out initially because Adam Jones and Murray were more highly regarded than him and Vickery can play 2 sides of the scrum.
Croft is also quicker than JW.
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Re: Hayes called up to Lions

Post by Leinsterman »

At this rate, Hayes should start next weekend.
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Re: Hayes called up to Lions

Post by gfo »

Leinsterman wrote:At this rate, Hayes should start next weekend.
and go home injured on monday
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