The Official Declan Kidney is God Thread

[Crash]

I dont think that is true ckav. Jennings is the only other player abroad that genuinely has a shot at making the Irish 22

EP, I know what you mean, but isn't that more the result of limited selection policy and blinkered attitudes towards those who ply their trade outside the jurisdiction of the IRFU, than down to ability>? Look at Rob Casey or Trevor Brennan, for example...

Not really a limited selection policy. Those that are deemed good enough get selected - Easterby, Murphy, Jennings, O'Connor, Reddan, Staunton. Casey and Trev aren't in the mix at all because there are better players available.

[ckav]

Not really a limited selection policy. Those that are deemed good enough get selected - Easterby, Murphy, Jennings, O'Connor, Reddan, Staunton. Casey and Trev aren't in the mix at all because there are better players available.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't O'Sullivan make it clear (was it in an interview with Gerry T?) a few seasons ago, that he would expect/prefer the national squad to remain within the provincial set up, in order to have better access to them for his training and conditioning camps?

Maybe he IS picking the form player over the weaker..(.that theory is certainly dumped on its head when you look at the selection of Murphy over Girvan at 15 for Ireland!), but I detect a bias towards a) Irish based players and b) a limited selection policy.
The A team for that match looks to be quite adventurous. mind.

[CM]

I dont think that is true ckav. Jennings is the only other player abroad that genuinely has a shot at making the Irish 22

EP, I know what you mean, but isn't that more the result of limited selection policy and blinkered attitudes towards those who ply their trade outside the jurisdiction of the IRFU, than down to ability>? Look at Rob Casey or Trevor Brennan, for example...

ckav, of the squads recently both for November and the 6N roughly 20% of the players were based overseas. That's a fair enough percentage since there's less than 20% of our player base playing abroad. Brennan and Casey are sticks used to beat EOS. Neither player are realistic contenders with Brennan having a brief period when he was realistic but that passed two years ago. He hasn't been anything more than a squad player in the intervening period and I don't think he's started one important match for Toulouse in the backrow (where everyone wants him) in that period. As a 2nd row he just doesn't compare well to the others. Casey's workrate is still not high enough and while he may be level with some of our other locks the 50/50 call will and should always go the home based player. We're in a great position now where our provincial squads are strong yet we can still afford to lose players abroad. However we can never lose sight of the fact that we have to maintain those strong home-based squads so we need to maintain some level of bias.

My opinion on the Casey/Brennan overseas thing is that it has never affected Ireland negatively. It's only some people's opinion that those players would improve Ireland but plenty others wouldn't be of that opinion. And apart from those two there really hasn't been any ignoring of the real talents abroad as witnessed by Jennings being called into the squad when EOS could easily have ignored him and picked Gleeson instead.

[Dave Cahill]

Just to clarify, this is Bob Casey, officially the best lock in the Premiership for the last two seasons running and currently leading all the stats for his position this season? And hes not good enough?

[CM]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't O'Sullivan make it clear (was it in an interview with Gerry T?) a few seasons ago, that he would expect/prefer the national squad to remain within the provincial set up, in order to have better access to them for his training and conditioning camps?

As would any national coach. Gatland wanted the same. England want the same. Every national coach wants access. The RFU are talking about buying all the clubs out so that they can gain better control over the professional game. EOS's stance is one dictated to him by the IRFU whose preferrence would be to have all our team playing here. Forgetting even the training issue it makes a load of sense. Strong provinces mean better developement of players coming through the ranks. We can never risk going the route of soccer.

[CM]

Just to clarify, this is Bob Casey, officially the best lock in the Premiership for the last two seasons running and currently leading all the stats for his position this season? And hes not good enough?

What stats would they be? Would they be the ones where he hits more rucks than anyone else? I doubt it. He's a good setpiece player but he doesn't get around the pitch enough.

And anyway, since when has the GP set the standard? Conor O'Shea was the leading FB in the ZP for a couple of years. Never did Ireland any good. We do actually have some decent locks over here you know Dave. And the last time I checked those locks were playing in the Heineken Cup and will be in April too. Oh and 3 of them went on the Lions tour.

[Dave Cahill]

Just to clarify, this is Bob Casey, officially the best lock in the Premiership for the last two seasons running and currently leading all the stats for his position this season? And hes not good enough?

What stats would they be? Would they be the ones where he hits more rucks than anyone else? I doubt it. He's a good setpiece player but he doesn't get around the pitch enough.

And anyway, since when has the GP set the standard? Conor O'Shea was the leading FB in the ZP for a couple of years. Never did Ireland any good. We do actually have some decent locks over here you know Dave. And the last time I checked those locks were playing in the Heineken Cup and will be in April too. Oh and 3 of them went on the Lions tour.

I think that Conor O'Sheas "failure" at full back had more to do with the magnificent ball skills and harlem globetrotter-like play of the likes of Elwood, Maurice Field et al than anything else. Serge Blanco could have been playing with that lot and he wouldn't have scored diddly.

And the stats include things like carries, tackles made, yards gained, lineout %ages etc etc.

[CM]

And the stats include things like carries, tackles made, yards gained, lineout %ages etc etc.

So tight play? Not his workrate which is EOS's problem.

Dave, it's an opinion. The GP thing is a particular hatred of mine where a player who seems to be successful over there apparently absolutely has to be in the Irish side no matter what. It's a very condescending attitude that bears no basis is actual facts. Take O'Connor for example. He's got the ZP player of the month for December in 2003 (there was only one game that month I think) and everyone was up in arms that he didn't walk straight into the Irish side. They completely ignored that Gleeson was in fact playing quite well and was just as good if not better. O'Connor made the extended squad for the 6N but not the 22 and was then injured for the season. Gleeson was subsequently injured and JOC starts the November series. But the way it's told is that EOS ignored JOC's form for years, that he overlooks overseas players, blah, blah, blah. All complete bullshit.

Anyway, back to opinion. Casey might have a case for being in the A squad but he's nowhere near the team.

[limecat]

Strong provinces mean better developement of players coming through the ranks. We can never risk going the route of soccer.

To be honest, I think that it's something of a double edged sword. If Jennings hadn't gone to England, he would probably be playing second fiddle to Gleeson and as a result wouldn't have developed as quickly as he seems to have.

If all players stay in Ireland, than there is a possibility that young players won't get gametime to develop, whereas if all our senior players go abroad, we won't be able to complete in the HC and there will be nobody there to give the younger players the benefit of their experience.

There's a very careful balance required between the need to develop young players and the desire to keep our "best" players playing at home, one that I think isn't helped by only having four professional teams, not that I'd advocate the creation of a fifth "province".

[Dave Cahill]

And the stats include things like carries, tackles made, yards gained, lineout %ages etc etc.

So tight play? Not his workrate which is EOS's problem.

Dave, it's an opinion. The GP thing is a particular hatred of mine where a player who seems to be successful over there apparently absolutely has to be in the Irish side no matter what. It's a very condescending attitude that bears no basis is actual facts. Take O'Connor for example. He's got the ZP player of the month for December in 2003 (there was only one game that month I think) and everyone was up in arms that he didn't walk straight into the Irish side. They completely ignored that Gleeson was in fact playing quite well and was just as good if not better. O'Connor made the extended squad for the 6N but not the 22 and was then injured for the season. Gleeson was subsequently injured and JOC starts the November series. But the way it's told is that EOS ignored JOC's form for years, that he overlooks overseas players, blah, blah, blah. All complete bullshit.

Anyway, back to opinion. Casey might have a case for being in the A squad but he's nowhere near the team.

CM, not a fan of the GPL myself, I have on occasion described it as hollywood rugby and worse. I have however seen BC play a number of times each season for the last two years and have been more impressed with what I've seen than I have been by anything that DOC, Matt Mc, Cullen, Hogan and MOD have done in that time, yet these are all considered to be squad regulars of one form or another, but Casey is left out in the cold.

The fact remains, and it is uncontestable, that EOS, when faced with injuries during the autumn internationals, called up a munster reserve over a two time HEC winner and the GPLs top lock. That is a ridiculous state of affairs.

[CM]

limecat

Agree. When a player like Jennings is clearly ready to be 1st choice but we've as good a player and it's a specialist position a move is good which is why I said earlier that I was happy that he left Leinster.

Dave, do you have a link to the Opta stats. Can't seem to find one easily and all I've found are teams of the week. For the last 6 GP weekends Casey has only being mentioned once in any of the top 3 lists (in 3rd place) and hasn't made one team.

[Dave Cahill]

limecat

Agree. When a player like Jennings is clearly ready to be 1st choice but we've as good a player and it's a specialist position a move is good which is why I said earlier that I was happy that he left Leinster.

Dave, do you have a link to the Opta stats. Can't seem to find one easily and all I've found are teams of the week. For the last 6 GP weekends Casey has only being mentioned once in any of the top 3 lists (in 3rd place) and hasn't made one team.

I'll dig it out, its in my favorites at home.

[Duff Paddy]

Cullen is a solid journeyman pro, and he's getting some game time at Leicester this season so I think calling him awful is unfair. Surprised he got himself a couple of Irish caps though.

Cullen was and is muck. I don't understand how people rate the Guinness Premiership as a standard bar. Other ordinary Irish players have blossomed over there too like Peter Bracken (Wasps) and Eoin Reddan (Wasps). These players were deemed surplus to requirements in their respective provinces and rightly so in my opinion.

General Collins -
I don't have an unrealistically lofty view of the Guinness Premiership - But Cullen has also been getting on as a sub in the Heineken Cup for Leicester - He was on the pitch when Leicester made their remarkable comeback against Stade Francais. Do you disagree that Leicester are one of the finest exponents of forward play in Europe? Cullen isn't as bad you're making out.

[General Collins]

Duff Paddy,
i agree entirely that Leicester are one of the finest exponents of forward play in Europe. However i am yet to be convinced of Leo Cullen's all round forward play.
Agree that calling him muck is probably over the top, after all he's a profesional rubgy player for nigh on ten years.
It just annoys me when people bang on about players in the GP. Because of the coverage Sky Sports allows to it's national league, you'd be forgiven for assuming it was the Super 12's or something (Yes 12's and not 14's, it'll be a cold day in West Cork before i recognise the Cheetahs and the Western Rugrats).

[Flash Gordon]

Bob's stats are second to none - and for me, I want someone to get down and do the dirty work, we have one of the best backlines in the world and in Wallace, Gleeson and Heaslip outstanding ball carriers in the backrow. I don't want a 19 stone lock breaking down the play - I want him to push in the scrum, hit rucks, take line out ball and do what locks do best.

That being said, Bob is a big ball carrier for Irish.....so he does that too.

[CM]

Bob's stats are second to none

Dave was going to give me a link to the opta stats, you don't happen to have them do you. There's a couple on Sky and the only stat I can see him in is lineout takes which is pretty irrelevant without knowing the amount of games the respective players started.