The Official Declan Kidney is God Thread

Leinsterman · Post by **Leinsterman** » February 7th, 2006, 9:09 pm

Imperial Mongoonybus wrote:How much longer is the Dr. with us?

this is his 3rd season with us and the IRFU usually only hand out 3 year contracts so I would HOPE/ASSUME Cheika is doing all in his power to keep him here.

CM · Post by CM » February 7th, 2006, 10:07 pm

this is his 3rd season with us and the IRFU usually only hand out 3 year contracts so I would HOPE/ASSUME Cheika is doing all in his power to keep him here.

Nah, he got a 4 year contract so we're fine. I remember at the time that everyone was up in arms that we gave a foreign FH at Leinster such a long contract but I'm not complaining at the moment!

Leinsterman · Post by **Leinsterman** » February 7th, 2006, 10:30 pm

Phew! I was probably one of the people up in arms...... particularly at the end of last season. Oops!

Duff Paddy · Post by **Duff Paddy** » February 7th, 2006, 10:49 pm

CM wrote:
this is his 3rd season with us and the IRFU usually only hand out 3 year contracts so I would HOPE/ASSUME Cheika is doing all in his power to keep him here.
Nah, he got a 4 year contract so we're fine. I remember at the time that everyone was up in arms that we gave a foreign FH at Leinster such a long contract but I'm not complaining at the moment!

Hang on a second Statto. I was also one of the people who questioned the length of Felipe's contract. I stand by that now. Felipe arrived at Leinster on the back of a string of horrendous signings at out half for Leinster and I, along with many others, felt that the only real solution to this was to groom a young talent and invest in one of our own. The provinces should play Irish-qualified players whenever possible and seeing as Munster is the only province offering a realistic out half option to the national team, then we'll have be honest here and say that Leinster could be doing more to address the deficiency in this position.

epaddy · Post by **epaddy** » February 7th, 2006, 10:49 pm

Leinsterman wrote:Phew! I was probably one of the people up in arms...... particularly at the end of last season. Oops!

His alleged comments after the Argentina test where poor for, plus we where all over the moon with Holly contribution. We have seen the light and he seem to be enjoying himself

Leinsterman · Post by **Leinsterman** » February 7th, 2006, 11:20 pm

Duff Paddy wrote:
Hang on a second Statto. I was also one of the people who questioned the length of Felipe's contract. I stand by that now. Felipe arrived at Leinster on the back of a string of horrendous signings at out half for Leinster and I, along with many others, felt that the only real solution to this was to groom a young talent and invest in one of our own. The provinces should play Irish-qualified players whenever possible and seeing as Munster is the only province offering a realistic out half option to the national team, then we'll have be honest here and say that Leinster could be doing more to address the deficiency in this position.

Someone's hacked Duff's account!!

Duff Paddy · Post by **Duff Paddy** » February 7th, 2006, 11:24 pm

LM - I actually remember being on munsterfans forum (I've since seen the light and retired from there) after Contepomi's alleged comments post Ireland V Italy. I was fuming, and seeing that Holwell was doing the business, I thought he should go fock himself. But he's embraced Leinster this season, he's loving the rugby and he's made me eat my words (gladly!). I hope he finishes out his career in Leinster.

JoseFantastique · Post by **JoseFantastique** » February 7th, 2006, 11:34 pm

To be fair Duff Paddy, if Ireland want to do well at the next world cup we will need at least another good outhalf coming through, imo, Humphrey's is not an option.

Of the chasing pack we have Staunton (struggling for his game at Wasps), Wallace (kept out of top french club by the IRFU), Steenson (AIL and Ulster A), McAllister (AIL Div2? and occasionally Leinster A), Ian Humphrey's (making second start for Leicester, playing well for Leicester A), Sexton (Leinster A), Manning (not qualified). Any others?

How are we going to bring the young outhalfs through if 3 of the provinces are playing outhalves who aren't going to be world cup options? I'm not advocating getting rid of Contepomi, but surely we should try and give an Irish choice some gametime too?

Duff Paddy · Post by **Duff Paddy** » February 7th, 2006, 11:48 pm

JoseFantastique wrote:To be fair Duff Paddy, if Ireland want to do well at the next world cup we will need at least another good outhalf coming through, imo, Humphrey's is not an option.

Of the chasing pack we have Staunton (struggling for his game at Wasps), Wallace (kept out of top french club by the IRFU), Steenson (AIL and Ulster A), McAllister (AIL Div2? and occasionally Leinster A), Ian Humphrey's (making second start for Leicester, playing well for Leicester A), Sexton (Leinster A), Manning (not qualified). Any others?

How are we going to bring the young outhalfs through if 3 of the provinces are playing outhalves who aren't going to be world cup options? I'm not advocating getting rid of Contepomi, but surely we should try and give an Irish choice some gametime too?

Yeah I can see your point Jose/Joey?!? But it's the same old dilemma of short term gain for the province versus the good of the national team. In the words of Dec Kidney "the provinces are merely here to supply players for the national team".

Kidney liked McAllister's style of play. He seems to favour quaterback-style out halves who merely distribute the ball, without getting stuck into play much themselves. Leinster are thriving this year with an outhalf who can break - the opposition can't fan out and double mark D'arcy and BOD like the do against Ireland.

Also, about the blooding an outhalf for the world cup. I have to query whether it's right for a country like Ireland to be focusing on the world cup. I always felt that we should aim to peak the year after the world cup, when all the other teams are rebuilding - that would give us the best shot at actually winning something, i.e. a 6N or a few of the AI's.

JoseFantastique · Post by **JoseFantastique** » February 8th, 2006, 12:00 am

Personally I think we should try and nick 6n's titles in between world cups while England and France are rebuilding, we're not like the big nations who have plenty of hard calls to make on which players are better etc, by the time the world cup rolls around we'll know our strongest 22 anyway.

But on the outhalf issue, we have 2 options, a) we adopt a youth policy where by we gaurantee young players some quality senior gametime in addition to expanded A game format (a la Seaton maybe), or b) we farm young players out to the GP and have English clubs develop them (a la Ian Humphries).

What we must avoid, at all costs, is the Wallace/Staunton scenario, where by we comprehensivily impede a young players career for no obvious gain.

epaddy · Post by **epaddy** » February 8th, 2006, 12:15 am

Its about money as much as titles and the world cup is the biggest event in rugby. The potential sponsorship and TV right for that far outweigh the 6n

Duff Paddy · Post by **Duff Paddy** » February 8th, 2006, 12:26 am

epaddy wrote:Its about money as much as titles and the world cup is the biggest event in rugby. The potential sponsorship and TV right for that far outweigh the 6n

Yeah ePaddy but we seem to progress just as far in the RWC, regardless of whether we target it or not.

Drico · Post by **Drico** » February 8th, 2006, 10:13 am

Deccie is a great coach.

CM · Post by CM » February 8th, 2006, 10:57 am

Yeah ePaddy but we seem to progress just as far in the RWC, regardless of whether we target it or not.

Personally I don't think we target the WC as such but in our current situation it's a valid target. EOS built a team to peak in 2005 because he knew that's as far as players like Corrigan, Foley, Byrne and others were going to go. He's stated it since that he conciously stayed with the experienced players because he felt that their training over the years would carry them through. We fell short and the rest is history. So now we're rebuilding and as I said the obvious target to focus the minds is the WC, that doesn't mean we'll peak then but we will want all the relevant players in place by the time we embark on that campaign. It's also fair to say that that WC or the end of the 6N will be the end of the road for a 2nd wave of the team from last year, if they make it that far. I'm talking about players like O'Kelly, Dempsey, Hickie, Easterby, Wallace, Hayes and obviously Humphreys if he stays on.

As for developing FHs I don't think you can point the finger at Leinster. We've had horrific luck over the years with injuries to Irish qualified FHs and the fact that we've had a FH who can stay fit and get the best out of our outside backs for the last 2 seasons is good enough for me. What good is a poor FH going to do for the other 14 players? It'll dent their confidence, they won't be used to executing moves of the highest quality and overall it will affect their skills and abilities.

I do agree that more gametime should have been given this year to the younger FHs. Against Edinburgh, BOM should never have started while Sexton could have come on earlier against the Borders. But other opportunities were few and far between given some of the narrow results we've had and the importance on keeping Felipe on the pitch for the duration. There also is the case where Cheika simply doesn't rate the FHs at his disposal. We've gone into two HEC games recently with no FH cover on the bench while Sexton has leapfrogged two players on developement contracts to get a bench position. The players simply might not be good enough. One player who I would like to see back and whom I think Cheika would like is Dunne. I feel Cheika would have more confidence in him than the others but Dunne is so injury prone he may never realise his potential.

Duff Paddy · Post by **Duff Paddy** » February 8th, 2006, 11:09 am

Statto -

What are your views on Eoghan Hickey? I rate him personally, but what does the guy have to do to get a break.

CM · Post by CM » February 8th, 2006, 11:14 am

What are your views on Eoghan Hickey? I rate him personally, but what does the guy have to do to get a break.

Haven't seen enough of him, to be honest, DP. He can't be impressing in training given the gametime and even benchtime he's been getting.

How's his break and defence?

I think that we do need to decide on one of Hickey/Sexton and just go from there. Because Hickey's actually getting on a bit (developement wise) then maybe it might be an idea for Contepomi to take Sexton under his wing?

P.S. We need to get this conversation off this thread given the thread title - doing my head in clicking into it!

Ballyman · Post by **Ballyman** » February 8th, 2006, 11:18 am

JoseFantastique wrote:Personally I think we should try and nick 6n's titles in between world cups while England and France are rebuilding, we're not like the big nations who have plenty of hard calls to make on which players are better etc, by the time the world cup rolls around we'll know our strongest 22 anyway.

I agree. Realistically Ireland have no hope of progressing past the Q-Finals and should be in a better position than France and England who's main perogative this year is to build a team for next years RWC.
We should not be "re-building" for next year when we haven't a hope of success. Is reaching a Q-Final or S-Final success?? Not in my book it ain't. Winning it is success.
Forget about the RWC and concentrate on the 6 Nations although we blatantly haven't a hope in that either by the looks of things!!

CM · Post by CM » February 8th, 2006, 11:22 am

Nice and positive there Ballyman.

Duff Paddy · Post by **Duff Paddy** » February 8th, 2006, 11:34 am

Ballyman wrote:
JoseFantastique wrote:Personally I think we should try and nick 6n's titles in between world cups while England and France are rebuilding, we're not like the big nations who have plenty of hard calls to make on which players are better etc, by the time the world cup rolls around we'll know our strongest 22 anyway.
I agree. Realistically Ireland have no hope of progressing past the Q-Finals and should be in a better position than France and England who's main perogative this year is to build a team for next years RWC.
We should not be "re-building" for next year when we haven't a hope of success. Is reaching a Q-Final or S-Final success?? Not in my book it ain't. Winning it is success.
Forget about the RWC and concentrate on the 6 Nations although we blatantly haven't a hope in that either by the looks of things!!

Exactly! In EOS's eyes, par is getting to a QF, and he'd cream himself if he got them to a semi. We need to change this way of thinking - the current crop of Ireland players deserve to have silverware in the cabinet. We should aim to win the 6N when our biggest rivals, i.e. England and France, are rebuilding - success breeds success and it would probably set us up for the world cup better anyway.

CM · Post by CM » February 8th, 2006, 11:42 am

the current crop of Ireland players deserve to have silverware in the cabinet.

I think people go on too much about the 'current crop'. It's as if people are convinced we're going to go back to the 90s. Look around. Apart from positions where we've always had little strength in depth we have players coming through left, right and centre. A backrow of Leamy, Jennings and Heaslip will be around well past EOS. BOD has to retire? Trimble's coming through. Hickie gone? Kearney's there already. SHs? Boss, Campbell, Reddan, O'Leary. 2nd rows? There's around 5 or 6 international quality 2nd rows that will be around for another 6 or 7 years. Even hooker which looked like it was to be a problem is covered quite well at the moment.

Point is we've the systems in place to never go back to the 90s. So everything is about building. Would I give up a SF spot for a 6N. Feck that. If we never make the semis then the semis will always be 'success'. However if we make the semis this time around then next time nothing but a final will do and the players will have the confidence from what the previous team had done to do it. Does that mean I think we're only capable of getting to the semis and I'd consider it success? Of course not but it's a hell of a lot better than the QFs (and it'll mean we've beaten either France to win the group or NZ, doesn't it?).